Stuck in the Middle Ages and YOU don't know how USE a SWORD!
- Thread starter Werewolf
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I'd call myself Roger the Shrubber and carry my shovel.
My shovel-fu is strong.
Then again Roger is a French name. Considering that even a scratch from a flea bitten rottentoothed footsoldier is likely to give me a cause of the plague it would likely be a good idea to keep hand to hand to a minimum. Don't drink the water either. These locals are used to the kind of parasites and fauna that live in the air and water and have a resistance to 'period' diseases... we likely don't.
Timeline is yet again one of those Crichton stories that feels a like a 'treatment' rather than a well thought out novel.
Hey we are going back in time to save the professor!
Great! Lets's bring a bunch of nerdy academics with absolutely no martial skills whatever and see what sort of hilarity ensues!
Hey, what about time paradoxes and taking back killer flu viruses and bringing back the black plague?
Oh well see, conviniently off camera, we already left someone behind and it appears he didn't change history at all... so it's perfectly fine, you needed worry your head about all that 'science' crap, in fact we pretty much know how it all turns out anyway, right?
So then explain to me again why we need a physics major?
Oh he plays D&D on the weekends, I'm sure he'll come in handy.
Me?
I'd pack something with enough punch to blow a hole in plate steel at 100 yards.
My shovel-fu is strong.
Then again Roger is a French name. Considering that even a scratch from a flea bitten rottentoothed footsoldier is likely to give me a cause of the plague it would likely be a good idea to keep hand to hand to a minimum. Don't drink the water either. These locals are used to the kind of parasites and fauna that live in the air and water and have a resistance to 'period' diseases... we likely don't.
Timeline is yet again one of those Crichton stories that feels a like a 'treatment' rather than a well thought out novel.
Hey we are going back in time to save the professor!
Great! Lets's bring a bunch of nerdy academics with absolutely no martial skills whatever and see what sort of hilarity ensues!
Hey, what about time paradoxes and taking back killer flu viruses and bringing back the black plague?
Oh well see, conviniently off camera, we already left someone behind and it appears he didn't change history at all... so it's perfectly fine, you needed worry your head about all that 'science' crap, in fact we pretty much know how it all turns out anyway, right?
So then explain to me again why we need a physics major?
Oh he plays D&D on the weekends, I'm sure he'll come in handy.
Me?
I'd pack something with enough punch to blow a hole in plate steel at 100 yards.
Kor
Member
Okay, minor thread veer...
...but an excellent series of books on a similar situation is Eric Flint's 1632(a.k.a. "Ring of Fire") series - instead of a lone individual or small group being thrown back to the Dark Ages, consider a whole township full of West Virginia hillbillies being thrown back into the middle of the Thirty Years' War(still pretty close to the Dark Ages as far as the indigenous weaponry and tactics).
And, yes, we wind up with said hillbillies facing down arquebus/sword/pike-armed German mercenaries and Spanish soldiers with .30-30 leverguns, scoped deer rifles, modern pistols, etc. I am loath to go into greater detail for fear of spoiling the story - it's just a VERY well-thought-out and researched premise, which has produced several outstanding novels and short stories. Part of what has made this series great is the fan forum at www.baen.com ("Baen's Bar") - much like THR, the "Barflies" function as an enormous research staff-cum-focus group to make the books-in-progress even better, for their own increased reading pleasure.
...but an excellent series of books on a similar situation is Eric Flint's 1632(a.k.a. "Ring of Fire") series - instead of a lone individual or small group being thrown back to the Dark Ages, consider a whole township full of West Virginia hillbillies being thrown back into the middle of the Thirty Years' War(still pretty close to the Dark Ages as far as the indigenous weaponry and tactics).
And, yes, we wind up with said hillbillies facing down arquebus/sword/pike-armed German mercenaries and Spanish soldiers with .30-30 leverguns, scoped deer rifles, modern pistols, etc. I am loath to go into greater detail for fear of spoiling the story - it's just a VERY well-thought-out and researched premise, which has produced several outstanding novels and short stories. Part of what has made this series great is the fan forum at www.baen.com ("Baen's Bar") - much like THR, the "Barflies" function as an enormous research staff-cum-focus group to make the books-in-progress even better, for their own increased reading pleasure.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
Only one problem with your premise...the vast number of documented battles where the top leaders of the knights demanded to be placed in the front lines before the first charge and were all killed...thus losing the battle.
There is only ONE reason to suppose they would run from gunfire...fear of the unknown. These guys feared dishonor more than death. Much more.
Check out the battles of WWI. These guys were also human. According to you they should have run away. They didn't. They charged the machine guns and died. Day after day. Year after year.
You'll find very few instances in history where humans who considered themselves to be warriors and who were well trained ran from certain death. Most of the troops who broke and ran were peasant levies, garrison troops, or equivalent.
I wouldn't go with a handgun. I wouldn't go with a thousand men with handguns. Simple. Those people weren't stupid. It would take them only a matter of minutes to realize that it's time to sit back and let the arrows fly while calling up the ballistae, catapults, trebuchets, etc. No way, Jose.
100% concurrence. 3 main novels were done and a bunch of short stories. The novels were excellent and most of the short stories pretty good. Well worth the read. Those West Virginians kick some major butt in the 1600's and change history, hell they change the world.
Thanks for the reminder - havent' checked on the series to see if there's any new stuff in a while.
Gordon Fink
Member
PistolPackin'Papa said:
Of course, the typical medieval arming sword weighed about the same as your average handgun. Even a sword-of-war (cavalry sword used with two hands when on foot) weighed only about half as much as an M4 carbine. A blow from either could ruin your day very quickly.
~G. Fink
fresno_kimber45
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I think I would go with something that would really trip them out like a tasar gun or something. Imagine being in that time and seeing 2 metal prods shooting out at someone and then sticking to another person and that person shaking from the volts. That may trip them out but not too much as far as firepower so to speak.
Also on a side not with the handguns, go with a silencer also to help curb the scare factor.
Also on a side not with the handguns, go with a silencer also to help curb the scare factor.
spaceCADETzoom
Member
I think a lot of folks OVERestimate soldiers from teh middle ages. Unlike how the movies portray, most were not swordsmen, which required training, but were pikemen. That is, most in the military caarried "long pointy sticks"...and were taught to stand in long lines abreast of each other on an empty field. Knights with the "14 years" of dedicated training were the nobility...land owners who didn't account for even 1% of the military. Archers too were much more trained than the average soldier of the middle ages.
It honestly would have been closer to Army of Darkness, IMHO. Drop a regular modern rifle platoon into a hostile 1300s Europe and they'll survive. But without thier rifles? maybe not. It takes skill to use a sword...the vast majority of middle ages society didn't have it...and even less 21st century joes have that skill. But the idea that middle ages military was better trainined? Sorry, that's baloney...there's never been a more professional, well-trained fighting force in history than the modern US Army (interbranch rivalry aside).
Just an aside, but keep in mind that the average adult from the 20th/21st century would a whole head higher than the average adult from the 1400's.
Maybe a bit less so as compared to the nobility who had marginally better food and hygiene than the commoners, but your height, skin, and teeth would have pegged you as an "interesting specimen" no matter how carefully you dressed or spoke.
I think it's likely that you'd be pegged as exiled or disguised nobility from far away lands. That could be an enormous help or hinderance, depending on the circumstances.
Maybe a bit less so as compared to the nobility who had marginally better food and hygiene than the commoners, but your height, skin, and teeth would have pegged you as an "interesting specimen" no matter how carefully you dressed or spoke.
I think it's likely that you'd be pegged as exiled or disguised nobility from far away lands. That could be an enormous help or hinderance, depending on the circumstances.
Medusa
Member
It would be a very bad habit, and most probably fatal, to underestimate the soldiering abilities of medieval nations, this was mostly what they were good at, I'd say.
I'd personally keep a FN FiveseveN close by with plenty of ammo and HK G11 (this is a fantasy, right) with lots of caseless ammo (4.73 mm, shooting 3-round bursts at 2000 rpm).
New Jersey BB would be a good addition.
I'd personally keep a FN FiveseveN close by with plenty of ammo and HK G11 (this is a fantasy, right) with lots of caseless ammo (4.73 mm, shooting 3-round bursts at 2000 rpm).
New Jersey BB would be a good addition.
Thefabulousfink
Member
Mabey I am just too anachronistic, but I would go with traditional weapons made from modern materials. The quality of steel that we have today is far superior to what was available then and would give you quite an edge (pun intended).
I would take a pole-axe or similar pole arm to take care of mounted opponents and keeping foes out of arm-lopping range. My backup would be a shortsword (basilard) and a steel shield. The shortsword and shield combo is more effective and easier to wield at close ranges than the longsword.
Essentials that I would bring: anti-biotics, asprin, a ceramic-filter water pump, alcohol(isopropyl), and the equipment to distill small amounts of alcohol.
If I did bring a gun it would be used for getting food and long range defense. It would need to be something that could be replenished so it wouldn't be useles after the first month. I would take a modern reproduction of a Pennsylvania longrifle or a flintlock double rifle. Most modern BP rifles are accurate enough out to 200yds so that should put me on even footing with most archers and crossbowmen.
I guess my loadout is more geared towards living back then, rather than a short visit.
I would take a pole-axe or similar pole arm to take care of mounted opponents and keeping foes out of arm-lopping range. My backup would be a shortsword (basilard) and a steel shield. The shortsword and shield combo is more effective and easier to wield at close ranges than the longsword.
Essentials that I would bring: anti-biotics, asprin, a ceramic-filter water pump, alcohol(isopropyl), and the equipment to distill small amounts of alcohol.
If I did bring a gun it would be used for getting food and long range defense. It would need to be something that could be replenished so it wouldn't be useles after the first month. I would take a modern reproduction of a Pennsylvania longrifle or a flintlock double rifle. Most modern BP rifles are accurate enough out to 200yds so that should put me on even footing with most archers and crossbowmen.
I guess my loadout is more geared towards living back then, rather than a short visit.
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
I would take a silenced Colt Woodsman with the suppressor built into the barrel and built non concentrically. In other words the suppressor would hang below the barrel further than it would stick up. If the locals saw you point your "finger" and the BG goes sown, most primitives would, snort and run.
Daniel T
Member
Not to mention that you can read them for free from Baen's Free Library. Pure genius that.
As a side note: Jim Baen passed away about a month and a half ago.
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Zundfolge
Member
AJ Dual makes a good point (its one I bring up every time we watch a "time travel" movie ... usually we joke about how well fed and what good teeth the locals have).
Plus, I don't care how educated you are, you're going to speak with a real funny accent ... you're GOING to stick out, and in most of those smaller communities news of your arrival is going to travel FAST.
Honestly pretending to be nobility from "The Far East" is going to get you to survive ... you can make up a land just east of India that speaks an odd variation of English and its not like anyone would have reason not to believe you.
In fact the best thing to do would be to stand out as much as you can (unless your goal is to hide in the woods in a ghille suit and observe) trying to "blend in" when you obviously can't would make some people (particularly the local power brokers) suspicious of you.
So you might be better off walking in wearing completely modern BDUs and have your rifle slung on your back ... walk into town and ask to speak to the local lord and tell him you're a nobleman from a far away land and seek permission to hunt the "exotic" local game on his lands...having some gold coin on hand would be a good idea as well. You can always explain being of foot by saying your horses were "stolen a week ago".
Plus, I don't care how educated you are, you're going to speak with a real funny accent ... you're GOING to stick out, and in most of those smaller communities news of your arrival is going to travel FAST.
Honestly pretending to be nobility from "The Far East" is going to get you to survive ... you can make up a land just east of India that speaks an odd variation of English and its not like anyone would have reason not to believe you.
In fact the best thing to do would be to stand out as much as you can (unless your goal is to hide in the woods in a ghille suit and observe) trying to "blend in" when you obviously can't would make some people (particularly the local power brokers) suspicious of you.
So you might be better off walking in wearing completely modern BDUs and have your rifle slung on your back ... walk into town and ask to speak to the local lord and tell him you're a nobleman from a far away land and seek permission to hunt the "exotic" local game on his lands...having some gold coin on hand would be a good idea as well. You can always explain being of foot by saying your horses were "stolen a week ago".
dracphelan
Member
1. I would use a hand picked group from the Society of Creative Anachronism. They would probably have the best chance of blending in (and how to conceal the firearms about them).
2. Anybody from the USA (and most of the modern world) would probably stand out. Our skin is to clear. We walk to tall. And, our mannerisms are to different. Having been overseas, even when dressed the same as the locals, it is often easy to pick out the Americans because of these factors.
3. If I personally had to go, my list would include:
A pair of suppressed double stack 1911s
A supressed 308 rifle
A pair of good hatchets (I'm OK using these in hand-to-hand)
Water Filter and purification tablets
+1 on 1632
2. Anybody from the USA (and most of the modern world) would probably stand out. Our skin is to clear. We walk to tall. And, our mannerisms are to different. Having been overseas, even when dressed the same as the locals, it is often easy to pick out the Americans because of these factors.
3. If I personally had to go, my list would include:
A pair of suppressed double stack 1911s
A supressed 308 rifle
A pair of good hatchets (I'm OK using these in hand-to-hand)
Water Filter and purification tablets
+1 on 1632
carebear
Member
I think you'd need a Gideon-sized proportion of SCA'ers to get a hand picked group to risk your life with.
I think ARMA or others who work with live steel regularly might be a better choice. They might even have a marketable skill given the breath of their functional knowledge (teach Italian styles to the Flemish and such).
I think ARMA or others who work with live steel regularly might be a better choice. They might even have a marketable skill given the breath of their functional knowledge (teach Italian styles to the Flemish and such).
Well, obviously it depends on mumbers. If it is just me and my FAL or AK against Henry V's entire army, well, that is one thing. But, if it is, say, 50 -70 of them and five of us heavily armed THR time travelers, and we have a good 500 yard buffer - once they hear the roar of gunfire, and see their comrades falling at 500 yards, they might rethink things. Of course, we will never know, but I would think they might suspect black magic, since they would not be able to see the projectiles.
rchernandez
Member
mustanger98
Member
Thinking of kukri knives, K-Bar makes 'em too, IIRC. But according to what R. Lee Ermey told on Mail Call once, it's hard to draw one from the scabbard in a hurry without drawing your own blood. I couldn't tell you why that would be.
What I always thought was interesting is if the Ionian people hadn't been destroyed, (They believed in atoms, a sun-centric solar system, and other stars were suns, primitive steam engines etc. all around back around 2000 BC) and the great library at Alexandria hadn't been sacked, from a technological standpoint, human society would be more like the year 400XAD, than 200X AD…
Stevie-Ray
Member
Did anybody besides me find this hysterical?
Pair of Glock 20s and a CAR-15
good point on that 14 years of training. That is page, squire, knight
Thing is, lots of that training is only related to combat indirectly. Such things as how to polish and maintain armor, how to care for a horse, etc etc
Then there are things like hawking and dance steps
or a page which spent most of their time running and fetching.
This kind of training was designed to create a whole person befitting of knight status, with all the social graces and obligations necessary for the times they lived in.
It was not 14 years spent on arms training
Thing is, lots of that training is only related to combat indirectly. Such things as how to polish and maintain armor, how to care for a horse, etc etc
Then there are things like hawking and dance steps
or a page which spent most of their time running and fetching.
This kind of training was designed to create a whole person befitting of knight status, with all the social graces and obligations necessary for the times they lived in.
It was not 14 years spent on arms training
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