Stupid or Civil? I had to draw.

[Sans Authoritas]

NASCAR_MAN wrote:

Wow! Amazing that so many of you think that Initiating Force is so justified.: what:

Nascar, I find it amazing that you think policemen have their own special morality that allows them to initiate violence.

It seems to me that the reckless driver initiated the violence, both in driving like an animal, and by behaving like one when he was respectfully asked to be careful, because the OP knew someone was often on that road.

I don't understand why you think anyone has the right to initiate violence.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[arthurcw]

Living in a harsh urban setting, it’s not something I would have done. I’m not proud of that. I wish I lived in a place (and time) where manners and morals were not punished.

For where you were and what you had to work with; I think you did good. Don’t let us jaded cynical city dwellers ruin you and what’s left of good honorable folk out there. Just be careful.

 

[Kentak]

Don't misunderstand my comments, I know you were well intentioned. But, you blocked a following vehicle on a foggy, rural road and approached the vehicle you stopped. Now, if someone had done that to you, do you think you might have gone into condition red? What if he thought *you* were the aggressor and pulled a gun on you? Situations such as this can go downhill quickly. If his driving wasn't an avoidable hazard to you, it's best to let those things go. If you see someone driving dangerously, get a tag number, description of the vehicle, and call it in.

Now, if I saw a guy speeding down my street with kids playing around ahead, would I wave him down or at least shout out a "SLOW DOWN" warning? Sure, but that's a much more immediate and known danger than what you described.

K

 

[chipperi]

Wow! Amazing that so many of you think that Initiating Force is so justified.: what:

Well...good luck boyz...I'm sure that your paths will lead to your having an intersesting life: full of drama, arrests, courtrooms and jail.

Asta La Vista

NASCAR

I was in no way trying to initiate force with anyone.

I know this isn't going to seem too THR but we currently have 160,000 extra hooligans in town for the race today. I live about 15 mins from Bristol Motor Speedway. Hence the drinking and out of towner's. I usually try to avoid the area all together and stay in during race week. It was odd for him to be on that particular road. He must have been lost or known someone in the area.

 

[tpaw]

In the case of strangers loading one's neighbors things into a van, neither tenet applies. In this case, it is necessary to prudently investigate and, if safe (or at least proportionate to the risk that might be involved) to stop the crime.

Pick up the phone and dial 911. Don't leave your house. You don't know how many there are, if they are armed, or if they have a look out watching for someone to intervene.
Let the police handle the situation. Just gather as much information as you can and give it to the 911 operator, so the responding police have some idea as to what's waiting for them.

 

[Titan6]

Even if you weren't it would not matter from a moral standpoint. The police and military "intiate force" every day. If you call the police and have them do it for you what is the difference anyway? Training? mandate? I know plenty of people who have the training and lots of situations where you don't need a mandate.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Tpaw wrote:

Pick up the phone and dial 911. Don't leave your house. You don't know how many there are, if they are armed, or if they have a look out watching for someone to intervene.
Let the police handle the situation. Just gather as much information as you can and give it to the 911 operator, so the responding police have some idea as to what's waiting for them.

Tpaw, "prudently intervening" could very well encompass such an action, and like you point out, it is probably the best form of intervention in such a case.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

It was the right thing. Atleast as right as anything you could have done.

 

[Kentak]

Okay, you weren't trying to initiate the use of force. But, you blocked the road. Suppose he was all badass and came out with a gun and threatened you. You panic, pull out your gun. But, he's got the drop on you. Say he puts you down. The cops come. It's your word against his. Guess what? Your car is blocking the road. It appears you started the confrontation, which you did. How is this going to look in court--either criminal or civil?

K

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Sans, can you please stop taking threads and trying to turn each one into a soapbox commentary on why police are always out of bounds. There are plenty of threads that come up specifically about that. But it seems every time there is a thread that even mentions police, like this on where the OP only said the cop told him his actions were alright, you use that to jump into another diatribe about the ills of having police. Really, I'm just asking you one THR poster to another, can you please try to restrain yourself to the topic at hand? This thread is about whether the OP did the right thing. Not what should police have had the right, authority, or obligation to maybe do if they would have been there.


As far as the actual topic, Titan6 nailed it IMO. It is the classic "intervene or not" question. Some of us feel the need to help and stop bad guys, even if it puts ourselves at risk. Some don't. That is a personal question everyone needs to ask themselves. I think it would be best for one side not to call the other cowards and irresponsible for not intervening, and also for that side not to call the other reckless, overstepping, and stupid for intervening. Let your own code of ethics dictate your actions, and don't try to make it dictate others' actions.

 

[chipperi]

Kentak in hindsight I agree...but if I had it to do all over again I think I would do exactly the same. I dont want to have someones death on my hands when all I had to do was warn someone, which is what I did.

The reason for this post is constructive criticism to better learn and see it from different angles. Some people have given it well like you and many others. Some others have just spouted which is to be expected. I am just thankful that it didn't come to pulling the trigger.

 

[Treo]

QUOTE: "I straddled the lines and slowed to a stop. I stepped out next to the truck and motioned for him to roll his window down, "

This is a case of the wrong execution of the right idea. I don't want to be quite as nasty as some of the other respondants , but had you done that to me I would have drawn on you. It's a weird world out there , remember that's why we carry guns,people do not take kindly to random strangers pulling them over. I can't come up W/ a single scenario in which I wouldn't have taken your actions as anything but a direct threat. I'd have gone straight to defcon 1.

Put your self in the otherguys shoes. Your driving down the road , you try to pass someone, instead of letting you pass he cuts you off and forces you to stop, he then jumps out of the car and approaches you. I don't know about you but I'm not envisioning any good out come here

Honestly people don't want to be corrected by random strangers MYOB

 

[D94R]

I have to say to all the people dressing down this situation, how many times have any of you experienced a 100% unquestionable event where everything has gone 100% right and is text book down to a T?

I'll gamble that has never happened, to you or anyone. I'd say given the situation laid out by the OP he did right and good with what he had.

All you people who look to pick apart every occurance where a gun is drawn need to evaluate your own situations with carry then. In any event there will always be gray areas, it is what it is. In the chance you have to pull your own guns are you going to make sure everything is 100% scripted and just? Cause that seems to be the only way to satisfy you.

 

[akodo]

Civil is the key. Bringing dangerous behavior to someone's attention is protecting yourself and your family, it is NOT "escalation"

To me, it is the second half of "avoid dangerous places" because you are attempting to prevent a place from becoming dangerous by simple peaceful steps.

Now, of course everything can be taken too far. If you confront a problem, and the person says 'F____ off' you walk away and either let it go or call the police or other people in authority.

Now, I just walked in from going to the range. Before returning home, I stopped at the grocery store. I got home, saw someone standing at the apartment building entrance at the "comm box". I walked up with two bags of groceries, said excuse me, and let myself in. The person walked in behind me, walked over to an apartment door and started knocking. I set my stuff inside, went back for the last load, and upon my return, this gentleman was still standing in the hallway. I said to him

"Sir, if the person you are visiting isn't here I am going to have to ask you to wait outside"

Now, I believe in keeping people from aimlessly wandering in or following people into the building, free access will eventually mean free acess to theives, and eventually free access to people intending to do violence. I believe it is step one in keeping this building a safe place to live. It is the same preventive measure as owning a gun, locking your door, having a fire extinguisher and smoke detector, etc etc.

He very well could have screamed "Back off F___ head" at which point I would have said "okay" went inside locked the door and called the cops. He could very well have pulled out a roofing hammer and charged me. Had he charged me with weapon, I would have responded with my own weapon and done my best to end the threat.

 

[akodo]

QUOTE: "I straddled the lines and slowed to a stop. I stepped out next to the truck and motioned for him to roll his window down, "

This is a case of the wrong execution of the right idea. I don't want to be quite as nasty as some of the other respondants , but had you done that to me I would have drawn on you.

I am going to disagree with you Treo. There has to be a way to initiate contact with other people in automobiles. Stopping and making a rolling down the window motion is pretty common. Straddle the line is simply the opposite of pulling over to the curb, one shows your intent to interact with other drives (neither postively nor negatively) the other shows your intent to not interact.

Remember, straddling the line is much different than creating a roadblock. A car straddles teh line, you can easily pull around on either shoulder if you apply some care.

Pulling your gun because some guy is trying to wave you down is uncalled for. To me this is no different than a person walking quickly to catch up to you. He may be a mugger, but he may be a guy walking quickly so he can ask to use your phone or directions or assistance.

In both the man walking quickly behind you and the person partially blocking the road, you are correct to go on higher levels of alert, but I don't think it is approprate to draw your weapon.


Now, someone else equated this with seeing strangers carry belongings out of the home next door. I see this situaion as different because no person is being harmed or potentially going to be harmed, just property. Hence, calling 911 and being a good witness is sufficient, although walking outside and innitiating conversation is not out of the question either.

 

[Hook686]

hmmmmm Since I suspect you would not have blocked the road to lecture a fellow citizen about the 'Right' and 'Wrong' ways to drive had you not been armed with your gun I think you were out of line. Do you carry a CCW badge ?

 

[Nobody's_Hero]

I think you might have felt just as badly if the guy had kept driving like a fool and hit the farmer and his cattle up the road.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

What blows my mind is that someone would endanger not only themselves and the other driver, but everyone else who may be on that road by not only straddling both lanes and coming to the a stop in the middle of heavy fog, but getting out of the vehicle and walking around.

 

[Treo]

QUOTE:"There has to be a way to initiate contact with other people in automobiles. Stopping and making a rolling down the window motion is pretty common. Straddle the line is simply the opposite of pulling over to the curb, one shows your intent to interact with other drives (neither postively nor negatively) the other shows your intent to not interact."

Maybe it's a regional thing, but in Co Springs impeding another mororist's progress is not a normal way of initiating contact. I know the intent was good,but I still think a reasonable person would see that as threatening behavior. I know I would. maybe the " I would draw on you" response was a little excessive, but I CERTAINLY would have had the gun out

 

[rust collector]

This type of thread is useful if it causes us to pause and reflect how best to handle a similar situation. I'm hard pressed to come up with a rationale for scolding the OP, however. The event has passed and can't be changed.

I'm not here to scold anyone either, because I don't have the answer. We tell our 11 year old huntsafe students to take a plate & description and call a hotline or 911 if they witness things that may get someone hurt. It doesn't sound as if there was time for that here, or the OP may not have known which way the driver would turn at the intersection. I can't make that call because I wasn't there.

It makes me realize that I must not count on a rational response to attempts to communicate with other drivers, so I've learned something. I also sense that the OP had serious doubts about his actions, and will not let that happen again.

 

[The Tourist]

This type of thread is useful if it causes us to pause and reflect how best to handle a similar situation

I just had this same conversation with a guy in PM. Frankly, we should be doing a better job of observation. I believe keeping your eyes open is a valid part of condition yellow.

The crux of this thread is on the idea of confrontation with an unknown stranger. My side of the debate is that this is a bad idea.

For example, you're with your wife and kids and a guy cuts you off in traffic. He also has an Aryan Brotherhood flag bumper sticker. My advice is the shrug, forget about it and use discretion. However, I have a few hot-headed friends that feel "an example" should be made of these guys.

I used the phrase "better than even chance" to the member in our PM debate. Yes, the Aryan flag might have belonged to the truck's previous owner. But if not, theres a better than even chance the driver is armed and not the kind of guy who backs down.

Additionally, can you project the possible range of your feelings for all confrontations?

If you'll remember, I said I was tired, sick and frustrated. Some wise guy stalking me might have been a minor nuisance under perfect circumstances. I'm not in a perfect state of mind 100% of the time--and neither are you if you're being honest.

If your boss yelled at you before you left for home you're replaying the tape of that butt-chewing for the entire commute.

Now if this idiot that followed me had done something stupid, like appear threatening, what would have happened? I'd hope I would do the right thing. However the only thing I wanted was a steamy jacuzzi and a tumbler of Don Julio.

How many of you just nodded sheepishly?

 

[bfox]

I think you did the right thing .
What if that farmer would have been in the middle of the road that morning ?

I commend you for having the GONADS to do what you did .
Good job and you might have even saved the idiot drivers life !

Bill

 

[buck00]

What impresses me the most is the sense of community responsibility. You could have easily shrugged off the aggressive passing and thought "not my problem" only to potentially have him kill or cripple another driver or the farmer. You did the right thing.

* It sounds like this guy figured he was out in the sticks and could have beaten you with the bat without being caught for it. The pistol and the calm, controlled draw saved you. Well done!

 

[SaxonPig]

Some of you are missing the point. Yes, the gun was drawn in reaction to the appearance of the ax handle.

BUT, a prosecutor would argue that the man with gun INITIATED the confrontation (deny it all you want... call it a polite warning all you want... legally what you did was CONFRONT the other driver) and therefore the man's arming himself with the ax handle is reasonable under the circumstances. He would also point out to the jury (you know, the 12 folks who are about to put you away for 5 years) that as an armed citizen YOU are held to higher standard and that YOU should have known better.

I see bad drivers all the time. I see drunk drivers all the time. I am not a cop. I am a private citizen who as a permit holder is obligated to AVOID confrontations, not instigate or escalate them. That's why I call the cops and not try to play Junior G-Man and pull bad drivers over.

Next time, call the cops.

 

[tpaw]

akodo states:

Now, someone else equated this with seeing strangers carry belongings out of the home next door. I see this situaion as different because no person is being harmed or potentially going to be harmed, just property

You have no way of knowing that!
The house could have been occupied and the occupants injured or killed!