Stupid or Civil? I had to draw.

[Gun Slinger]

Having seen such "civilian to civilian contacts' become tragedies more than a few times in my LE career, I am always surprised that in this day where cell phones are quite the norm and within financial reach of even those for whom money is an issue, that folks still seem to want to deal with these issues in such a "hands on" manner in light of the liabilities that come with such intervention.

While I applaud the noble intent of such actions they are a "fools pursuit" in the worst sense of the phrase because of the fact that we stand to lose so much for the little advantage that can be gained from such unwise "tactics".

Common sense, being the sparse commodity that it seems to be today, would dictate that the best course of action to pursue in such an instance would be to notify the police via 911 (most cell phones will default to the correct jurisdiction these days resolving another problem that could hamper such a means of address) of the situation, location and the color, make and model of the offending vehicle as well as the license plate number and follow at a safe distance in order to provide the police continued updates as to the offender's actions, direction and location.

There is no reason anyone should allow themselves to be compromised (especially voluntarily) to the extent that the OP allowed himself to be (by impeding, no matter how slight, the intoxicated party) because such action is tactically unsound (ever wonder why the Police park their vehicles at an angle to act as intervening cover/obstacle during traffic stops?) and bad things tend to happen to nice folks with the best of intentions at the worst times.

Those who distrust the Police for no other reason than to be difficult or because they are "conflicted" and feel that they were "wronged" in the past , and question their authority, let alone their training and ability to handle such situations, are only fooling themselves and are only able to offer groundless and untested "solutions" of dubious and negligible merit if they have any "solutions" to offer at all.

While we all want to see such situations resolved as quickly as possible without the injury/deaths of innocents, sometimes this is not humanly possible and can only be compounded when and where "fools rush in".

So, "Stupid or Civil?"

Neither. My 'vote' would be for "Profoundly Unwise".

 

[3rdpig]

BUT, a prosecutor would argue that the man with gun INITIATED the confrontation (deny it all you want.

I find it hard to believe that any judge or jury would consider simply stopping someone to speak politely to them as "initiating a confrontation", but the stupidity of juries is not to be discounted.

But that being said, I agree, he's not a cop and it's none of his business to tell other people how to drive. I've found that people who are driving in a foolish and aggressive way are usually foolish and aggressive people, or are very angry at that moment. Unless you like or are paid to deal with this type, it's best to let them go on their way and give their license number to the cops.

And with that being said, anyone that comes towards me in an aggressive manner with a tire iron, axe handle or baseball bat is likely to see the business end of my gun, and if they don't stop advancing post haste it will be the last thing they see before they depart this vale of tears.

 

[Treo]

QUOTE: "Having seen such "civilian to civilian contacts' become tragedies more than a few times in my LE career"

Cops are civilians too

 

[Gun Slinger]

Cops are civilians too

Wow, what a germane point.

 

[Gun Slinger]

I've found that people who are driving in a foolish and aggressive way are usually foolish and aggressive people, or are very angry at that moment. Unless you like or are paid to deal with this type, it's best to let them go on their way and give their license number to the cops.

+1

An excellent "truism".

 

[Treo]

QUOTE:" Cops are civilians too
Wow, what a germane point."

No it's really not, I just get bugged when I see cops referring to citizens as civilians, like the cop isn't a civilian as well.

Of course I'm one of those who distrusts cops as well

 

[Kind of Blued]

So the basic message Chipperi, have less faith in mankind, and you'll be more lonely and disgruntled, but alot safer.

 

[beretta92d]

Now heres where the cop said I did good but I put myself in a potentially bad spot.

seeing that he does know that he put himself in a potentially bad spot,i honestly think that we don't need to keep reminding him..

Shucks,i may have done the same thing.i mainly get tailgaters that get the hint when i brake check to back off.

as for drawing his gun when the drunk came at him with the handle/bat,totally called for.

I see bad drivers all the time. I see drunk drivers all the time. I am not a cop. I am a private citizen who as a permit holder is obligated to AVOID confrontations, not instigate or escalate them. That's why I call the cops and not try to play Junior G-Man and pull bad drivers over.

Saxon,i know of times when you call the cops to report a possible drunk driver and they'll give you two options..1.thanks for calling,we'll have a patrol car watch for the vehical or 2.follow vehical and make a citizens arrest and wait for PO to pick em up(it has happened to me acouple times..)

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

if the conditions were that dangerous was it safe to bring 2 cars to a stop in the middle of the road? i'd have used my cell phone to call in the guy who stopped in the road

 

[Tom Servo]

Chipperi, you did just fine.

Personally, my response would have been, "well, you know the area, and I'd rather not wreck my car, so I'll keep that in mind."

Of course, I don't generally go antagonizing people, either. I guess that's the difference between civilized folk and those who drink before morning rush hour is over.

You were polite, and you were trying to help. There's something very wrong with the fact that people feel the urge to respond to that with malice.

If there's any lesson here, it's that violence can happen when we least expect it, and that it's good to be prepared.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I straddled the lines and slowed to a stop. I stepped out next to the truck and motioned for him to roll his window down, and he did.

As for whetehr or not the actions were cop-like, you did setup up a roadblock, ostensibly to protect others and yourself...which is interesting since this put you even more so in harm's way.

Me, I would have figured you for a bandit and had my own gun out had you blocked the road to me.

I said calmly and not aggressively that "sir you need to slow down a little this is a farm road and most mornings the guy is parked halfway in the road feeding cattle ahead and you wont be able to see him in this fog."

While I believe your intentions were 100% honorable, here is where you screwed up. You say you didn't speak aggressively, but you had already tried blocking the road. That is rather aggressive. Next, the first words out of your mouth after "sir" were corrective instructions telling the gun how to drive. You blocked the road and then told him how to drive. I think your social skills are no better than mine.

You would have been much better off had you first explained the danger to the guy and made it sound like the old farmer is a loon that doesn't know what he is doing and the driver might have taken it a bit better, or told him that the cops hide along various places of the road for the next several miles and the guy might have thought you were doing him a favor, which is what you intended, which would benefit everyone...until he got past the 'farmer' or 'cops' and continued as he had been and then killed somebody beyond the area of your warning.

To asnwer the question of stupid or civil, YES. You attempted to be civil, but didn't handle it in a manner that was accepted as civil, no doubt in part because the guy was DUI and part because you initiated a roadblock stop (which wasn't really safe for you to be out in the road if the guy was DUI, was it?)

 

[tpaw]

Of course I'm one of those who distrusts cops as well

Until you or a family member needs one.

 

[Kentak]

I have no quibble with the OP's good intentions. But, good intentions executed the wrong way can turn out very badly.

First, I don't deny he was probably justified in pulling his gun if the guy really was coming at him with an ax handle. But, that isn't the main issue. He took action to block the passage of a vehicle behind him. Is it illegal to pass a car in front of you? Is it the OP's job to give notice to every driver whom he believes is driving unsafely? Is it the OP's job to *impede* the progress of drivers whom, in his judgement, are driving unsafely?

Suppose you were weaving a little bit on the highway. How would you take to another driver blocking your way because he thought you might be impaired? He blocks your way, then gets out and approaches your car. ***? I know I'd get my gun out really quickly.

Had this confrontation turned bloody, the OP would very likely find himself in serious legal jeopardy. The prosecutor would have a field day showing how the OP initiated the confrontation, and this is no trivial point.

No, I'm not a lawyer or LEO, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

K

 

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

Brandishing any weapon, as in this case of the OP, can be turned into aggrevated something really quick. Call the cops! Its their job to tag the guy, DUI him and let him rot in public transportation for a year or so. A CCW does not make someone into a cop. Road rage and alcohol make a dangerous world out there. I will help someone with a flat tire, but commentary about someone's driving should be left to the opinion pages, not the street. Brake checking? How foolish is that? You know you have to come up with a good reason why that guy slammed into the back of you when there is no stop sign ahead? Reckless in addition to those folks doing this having access to firearms. Someone get you mad at work? Blow them away? This is a shocking trend I'm seeing today. A vehicle is a weapon, just like your gun. So, if you want to weaponize your car by brake checking, then let the AWB come! Let guns be taken away! Because I dont believe that mentality should be associated with this forum OR firearms in general. It does not matter who is right or wrong in this situation. What matters is that I notice alot of folks going out of their way for conflict (maybe subconscious). Guns dont cause crime, but maybe they influence someone's ego enough for them to think "Im going to show this guy. Im gonna be safe b/c I have a gun, so if he gets mad and does something, Im gonna blow him away...". When I drove a truck, we got rid of tailgaters by slowing down to the speed limit and keeping an eye ahead for obstructions to give ample warning and braking time to those in back. Gentle braking if a stop was ahead. Brake checking kills. Am I to assume those who want to correct other's driving behavior should not have firearms b/c a car and a firearm are similar in destructive power but also ego increasing ability? Hell yes after reading some of these posts. I agree with Saxon on his points. Someone else also mentioned letting free market concepts punish those who drive poorly. 10000% agreement! Let them mangle themselves on a post. Neighbor's kid getting drunk and driving? Darwinism. If folks cannot have enough restraint in thier drinking, anger and firearms, I'm going to start to believe the anti-gun rhetoric b/c I see firearms associated with a Rambo-Im going to correct everyone-Im a cop b/c I have a CCW-attitude. I know, I know. What if that drunk kills you or someone you know? I'm a statistic anyways. White, male, mid 20s punk kid that needs to have his jaw wired shut . Karma and wrong place, wrong time. Ive lost a friend in college due to DUI, god rest his soul. But he chose that action and its not my place or lord almighty's to choose that for him. Rant unit overheat! Someone, quick! Get hit the halon button!

 

[tpaw]

No, I'm not a lawyer or LEO, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

+1 on that!.............

 

[MakAttak]

Brandishing any weapon, as in this case of the OP, can be turned into aggrevated something really quick. Call the cops! Its their job to tag the guy, DUI him and let him rot in public transportation for a year or so. A CCW does not make someone into a cop. Road rage and alcohol make a dangerous world out there. I will help someone with a flat tire, but commentary about someone's driving should be left to the opinion pages, not the street. Brake checking? How foolish is that? You know you have to come up with a good reason why that guy slammed into the back of you when there is no stop sign ahead? Reckless in addition to those folks doing this having access to firearms. Someone get you mad at work? Blow them away? This is a shocking trend I'm seeing today. A vehicle is a weapon, just like your gun. So, if you want to weaponize your car by brake checking, then let the AWB come! Let guns be taken away! Because I dont believe that mentality should be associated with this forum OR firearms in general. It does not matter who is right or wrong in this situation. What matters is that I notice alot of folks going out of their way for conflict (maybe subconscious). Guns dont cause crime, but maybe they influence someone's ego enough for them to think "Im going to show this guy. Im gonna be safe b/c I have a gun, so if he gets mad and does something, Im gonna blow him away...". When I drove a truck, we got rid of tailgaters by slowing down to the speed limit and keeping an eye ahead for obstructions to give ample warning and braking time to those in back. Gentle braking if a stop was ahead. Brake checking kills. Am I to assume those who want to correct other's driving behavior should not have firearms b/c a car and a firearm are similar in destructive power but also ego increasing ability? Hell yes after reading some of these posts. I agree with Saxon on his points. Someone else also mentioned letting free market concepts punish those who drive poorly. 10000% agreement! Let them mangle themselves on a post. Neighbor's kid getting drunk and driving? Darwinism. If folks cannot have enough restraint in thier drinking, anger and firearms, I'm going to start to believe the anti-gun rhetoric b/c I see firearms associated with a Rambo-Im going to correct everyone-Im a cop b/c I have a CCW-attitude. I know, I know. What if that drunk kills you or someone you know? I'm a statistic anyways. White, male, mid 20s punk kid that needs to have his jaw wired shut . Karma and wrong place, wrong time. Ive lost a friend in college due to DUI, god rest his soul. But he chose that action and its not my place or lord almighty's to choose that for him. Rant unit overheat! Someone, quick! Get hit the halon button!

Paragraphs, please.

Secondly, I understand your feelings here, but I think you are wrong. The original post was not interfering with the driver behind him for that driver's benefit. That is simply meddling.

The poster recognized that this was a dangerous area, in heavy fog, and innocents were jeopardized by the erratic driving behind him. The police would not have been there in time to prevent this character's running into some poor farmer doing his daily chores.

What is that I read here? "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away"

I guess it's ok to watch a guy put someone else's life in danger instead of "sticking our nose into someone else's business".

I guess if I'm at the range and some guy with a gun starts firing up over the berm, I ought to pack up, call the police and leave. It's not my business, he can do what he wants. That's a police matter. Besides, I KNOW this guy has a gun.

 

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

Sorry to say about the range issue: Im an RO . Im not saying pack up, Im saying get an authority figure who has power invested in him/her to represent the state (or range, or restaurant) and kindly remind them those actions are not looked upon kindly. Let the powers in place do the work, not youself.

 

[plexreticle]

Stopping people to confront them is possible the most dangerous thing you can do.

Luckily, nobody was killed because of it.

 

[chrlefxtrt]

What impresses me the most is the sense of community responsibility. You could have easily shrugged off the aggressive passing and thought "not my problem" only to potentially have him kill or cripple another driver or the farmer. You did the right thing.

Community Responsibility. I couldn't have put it better. People often leave trash on the ground because "someone else" will pick it up. I see this in the same way.

Police are stretched too thin,
why not help out your fellow police by keeping them from having to clean up a traffic fatality, which the OP did.

Trust LEO's or don't I don't care, but when everyone stops caring about the others in their community, said community is doomed. If more people stopped and "helped" it wouldn't be seen as a provacative act by the masses.

If you were a Boy Scout I would say you did your "good turn" for the day.

 

[MakAttak]

If you were a Boy Scout I would say you did your "good turn" for the day.

Maybe that's why I support this. If we assume everything must be done through "official" and legal channels, then our society is dead.

Society itself should punish wrongdoers before the law has to get involved. Once everyone relies on the legal system instead of cultural punishment, we lose the value of HAVING a society.

Ah, well, perhaps our culture is dead.

 

[NG VI]

Chipperi I say you did well, I see it as a problem when letting an adult know they are in the wrong is viewed as "confronting someone" or "looking for trouble". Hopefully old boy will pay for his stupidity for a long time.

 

[The Tourist]

I think we're missing the point as a group who should be looking at themselves as the good guys.

We carry (anything) for the safety and the security of ourselves and those in our care. We are not sworn officers.

In that regard, doing nothing and returning home safely is a win.

Initiating (or being suckered into) a response means that a portion of your safety is under the control of a total stranger.

And let me be clear on this. You might be the minister of your church, decorated for charitable contributions in your state, a loving father, a loyal husband, blah, blah.

However, if I see your weapon I will kill you as fast as I can. No exceptions.

The reason? Because I'm a good guy. In the nano-seconds of choice I might have, that means I have identified you as a "bad guy." And bad guys die.

I know the 21-foot rule, and I carry a particularly nasty knife for throats and femoral arteries. When you decide to stick your nose into a place it doesn't belong, then you become a bad guy threatening a good guy.

I want you to think about that--seriously. Because there are millions of guys like me--who are also good guys--that just want to be left alone. We don't want to hear your war stories, we don't want to listen to your convoluted treatise on the modern man and the RKBA.

If you show me your weapon, you'd better make sure it's about something to die for.

 

[MakAttak]

However, if I see your weapon I will kill you as fast as I can. No exceptions.

The reason? Because I'm a good guy. In the nano-seconds of choice I might have, that means I have identified you as a "bad guy." And bad guys die.

I would venture to say that you are NOT a good guy, then.

You are willing to fire on someone simply for seeing their weapon.

I assume you fire on police every time they come into view.

I assume anyone open carrying is shot by you as well.

Apparently, if someone calmly walks back to your vehicle and speaks calmly with you, but you catch a glimpse of his firearm inside his coat... BLAM! Another bad guy off the street.

Huh, maybe the anti's are right about blood in the streets and people only having guns because they are afraid.

 

[The Tourist]

I would venture to say that you are NOT a good guy, then.

You are willing to fire on someone simply for seeing their weapon.

Then what would you do? Wait to hear the story of his life? Ask him if he's another good guy from THR? Pat him down and hope you find a rosary?

If a guy stops (or blocks) the movement of my car, confronts me, and I see a weapon, there's no chance or time to try and figure out what that man is about. And frankly, I don't care nor can I discern his reasons or excuses.

Show the weapon, meet the coroner.

 

[thunder173]

Living in a rural area of the country,...I can say that I probably would have done the same thing. Your heart was in the right place,...even though your tactics could be questioned. But,...as my Michigan CCW instructor told me,...(State Trooper),...and here's the $ 64 question,..."Would you have taken the same course of action had you NOT been armed,...and had a ccw?" If the answer is yes,..then I guess you'd have done good. If the answer is no,...then you might want to rethink your actions,....

In either case,...glad you took the stance to do SOMETHING,.....might have been me standing beyond that fog that the idiot could have hit,...or my kids,....

There are sheep,...there are wolves,...then there are us sheep dogs.