Suppressed shotgun with buckshot - No Country for Old Men

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
13,146
Just did a search on this here and got zero results**, so.....

Saw this movie last night (pretty cool and disturbing) - No Country for Old Men. Well of course, for those that have seen it, the bad guy's main weapon is a shotgun (semi-auto I believe), with a huge suppressor on the end, which he uses to great effect shooting what appears to be buckshot (perhaps 1 or 0 or 00 buck, something like that, maybe a bit smaller).

Well, I call BS. I see how a slug would work, but any kind of buckshot or birdshot is going to spread out upon leaving the barrel and entering the suppressor, and impact the baffles, destroying it on the first shot, and probably injuring the shooter. Am I correct? Very very disappointing, that, considering the makers' (Coen brothers) otherwise incredible attention to detail, and the fantastic acting and story line, etc. Just could have just shown him shooting slugs into his victims, with the same devastating effect, and voila, impeccable movie. But with buckshot, it kinda ruins it for me due to this huge technical error, in the midst of multiple painstakingly-acheived technical successes re: guns and their functioning & effects in the movie. :cuss:

P.S. And even if the wadding could in theory make the pellet column shoot straight out, the problem with this is that the wadding itself will *immediately* spread, and when the wadding catches on the baffles, this will disturb the entire shot column, which will in turn then impact the baffles and destroy the suppressor.

Any thoughts?

**My search was shotgun forum, search titles only, "country AND old AND men", any date.
 
The shot cup keeps the buckshot confined until it leaves the barrel. Additionally, shotgun suppressors have a tube on the inside with holes in it, inserted into the baffles. All of this means that you don't get baffle strikes.

The volume of gas in a shotgun means that you need a pretty large suppressor.

But since the shot is subsonic, they can be pretty effective.

shotgsup.jpg
 
Suppressors can be made for shotguns, they are more popular in Europe. The suppressor baffle has to be designed so that the shot cup doesn't open up in the suppressor. If this is accomplished, you will have a suppressed shotgun.

I've seen clips of the movie and the exit hole in the suppressor is too small to be a 12ga.
 
I submit that if the suppressor is designed to contain the wadding and shot column, then it AIN'T GONNA WORK AS A SUPPRESSOR - not very well anyway. That's how a suppressor works - is by allowing gases to escape into the baffles. If a structure is present that prevents the wadding from going into the baffles, it's also gonna largely prevent the gas from going into the baffles. If it works at all, it would only work to a very small extent, and not work nearly as well as depicted in the movie. Common sense says that any gases not directed out and into the suppressor are going to come out the end. And a structure that prevents a wadding from opening up would have to be VERY tight, with only very small holes, since waddings are designed to open up completely and immediately to leave the shot column undisturbed in flight. Sorry, not buying it. Not unless there was a specific kind of ammo designed with a specific stiff-material *wadding*, combined with a special suppressor to hold the wadding in, but with very large holes to allow the gas to escape into the baffles. Then we'd have something. It's possible, because the movie doesn't show where this guy gets his ammo, so I suppose I can give them the benefit of that doubt. But with a flimsy plastic standard wadding, no - that structure will be more like a colander than chicken wire, not allowing much gas into the suppressor baffles.

freakshow, that's cool, but that shotgun in that video is a LOT louder than what is depicted in the movie, which proves my point. It ain't happening as depicted. For an extreme true-to-realilty movie, a nearly silent shotgun just ain't cuttin it for me.
 
I submit that if the suppressor is designed to contain the wadding and shot column, then it AIN'T GONNA WORK AS A SUPPRESSOR.

I submit that you're thinking about this too much. The image above shows a tube in which the gases may escape through the sides while not allowing the shot cup to open up.
 
Actually, thank you - that image which you just now posted in your post #2, in an edit after my last post (#5), shows exactly what I just said in post #5 - more like a colander. That's gonna work about 1/3rd to 1/5th as well as the movie depicted, just as the video posted above shows. In the movie, the sound was more like a "thwump" without any "blast" or "crack".

The suppressor "Works"? - yes and no, depending upon your definition of "works". Works as good as depicted in the movie? Idonthinso.

Pretty cool, though, that it would actually work to some extent with a suppressor like that. Still an very good movie, too, regardless. Thanks for the image & info!
 
Works as good as depicted in the movie? Idonthinso.

Well, someone with that many specialized weapons could have significantly downloaded his shells and lightened the recoil spring so the gun would cycle and you'd still get that "phut!" sound.

Or we could remember it's just hollywood.
 
If a structure is present that prevents the wadding from going into the baffles, it's also gonna largely prevent the gas from going into the baffles.

Not exactly. The function of a suppressor is to lower the exit pressure of any gases when they hit the atmosphere. This can be accomplished in many ways. Just because it uses ports, instead of baffles, does not mean it cannot accomplish the initial task of lowering the exit gas pressure. It simply routes the gases via a different design, shape, and volume. It can make up for any less inherent efficiency by increased volume, so to speak.
 
Well it appears that there actually are suppressors that will work on shotguns, I just assumed that it was only possible if a slug was used and that it was typical Hollywood BS.

SuppressorX2.gif

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3920413

http://www.guns.connect.fi/rs/rifles.html

image_thumb


http://www.longmountain.com/images/Suppressed%20Shotguns

http://www.gunatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1500


As reported Sept. '00 in SWAT Magazine:

CLANDESTINE 12
Silenced Shotgun from Tac Ops
by
Eugene Nielsen
Cover photo by Stan Nielsen

The 12 gauge shotgun can be one of the most versatile and effective tools in the tactical arsenal. Unfortunately, it has two big drawbacks -- it has one heck of a muzzle blast and has an enormous muzzle flash. These drawbacks often outweigh the shotgun's utility in many tactical scenarios.

The blast and flash can be a serious liability. A standard shotgun is hardly a covert tool. When employed for breaching, the sound of the shotgun’s discharge can lead to “they shot first” scenarios. The muzzle flash of a shotgun can significantly impair night vision and give away the operator’s position. The flash can be downright lethal to the operator when operating in explosive environments, such as when raiding clandestine drug laboratories.

The Science of Silence
There are three possible sources of sound from the discharge of any firearm that need to be considered when “silencing” a firearm: the weapon’s muzzle blast; the sonic boom caused by a projectile exceeding the sound barrier; and the sound from the cycling of the firearm’s action.
The muzzle blast is the most significant source of sound. Muzzle blast is the consequence of high-pressure gasses suddenly exiting the barrel. If the pressure is reduced immediately before it exits, the weapon’s report will also be reduced.
There are several ways that pressure reduction can be accomplished. Pressure can be reduced by increasing the volume of space occupied by a given quantity of gasses. It can also be reduced by decreasing the temperature of the gasses and/or delaying the exit of the gasses by creating turbulence and trapping the gasses. The effectiveness of a suppressor in reducing muzzle blast is dependent on how well it achieves these objectives.

Muzzle blast is also reduced by decreasing the velocity of the gasses and either absorbing the sound waves or canceling them by interference with reflected waves coming from the same source. The behavior of sound waves is similar to that of light waives in many respects. As with light waves, sound waves can be reflected, refracted, diffracted and scattered.

Various combinations of components (such as baffles, packing material, mesh, expansion chambers, spiral diffusers, pressure relief ports and wipes) may be employed in a sound suppressor. Artificial environment technology or “wet technology,” as it’s commonly referred to, may also be employed. Wet technology employs greases, oils or other fluids to cool the gasses for more effective sound suppression. The use of wet technology increases the efficiency to size ratio of the suppressor.

A Difficult Task
There have been numerous attempts to silence shotguns and eliminate their muzzle flash. The large bore diameter of the 12 gauge shotgun has been the major impediment to the development of an effective sound suppressor. Conventional sound suppressor designs of a practical size have allowed too much gas to escape to effectively silence the weapon.

A lesser but still significant problem has been the fact that most shotgun loads are supersonic. If a projectile exceeds the speed of sound (about 1,087 feet per second (fps) at sea level), it will “crack” as it passes or the sonic boom is reflected back from a hard object. This miniature sonic boom can be quite loud.

As a result of the problems in effectively silencing a shotgun firing conventional shotgun cartridges, the US Navy decided to try a different approach. In 1967, the Navy announced a requirement for a silent shotgun cartridge that could be fired from unmodified, conventional military shotguns. Although this may have seemed like an impossible task, AAI Corporation did in fact come up with such a cartridge, based on their patented Telecartridge™. Intended for use by Navy SEAL and Marine Recon teams, the Silent Shotgun Shell has to be one of the most unusual cartridges ever developed.

The AAI Silent Shotgun Shell utilized an explosive propellant under a folded, steel Telecartridge cup. When fired, the expanding gasses extended the cup. The payload, consisting of 12 #4 buckshot was expelled by the initial impulse. The sealed Telecartridge cartridge cup contained the gasses, flash and most of the noise.

The Silent Shotgun Shell was a great idea, but it too proved impractical. To prevent the Telecartridge from rupturing, the muzzle velocity of the round had to be reduced to just 450 fps. The low velocity resulted in a short range cartridge of limited lethality. This coupled with the high cost of the rounds caused the project to be dropped after only 200 test rounds were delivered to the US Naval Ordnance Testing Laboratory.

The Clandestine 12 Suppressed Shotgun
Recognizing the tactical need for a sound- and flash- suppressed shotgun, Mike Rescigno, President of Tactical Operations, Incorporated, set out to develop just such a shotgun. While well aware of the failures of others before him, he believed that a practical sound suppressor for shotguns was possible. After four years of extensive research and development, Tac Ops has achieved what has eluded others.
Tac Ops discussed the design of the suppressor in considerable detail on the condition that I not reveal any of the specifics. Suffice it to say that it’s very innovative. The suppressor utilizes an advanced, patent-pending design with proprietary artificial environment technology to provide performance that was previously unattainable. According to Tac Ops, the suppressor will safely handle all commercially loaded 12 gauge ammunition.

Called the Clandestine 12™, the sound suppressor has a stainless steel body and heat-treated aircraft-grade aluminum internal parts. Considering that it’s designed to suppress a 12 gauge shotgun, the suppressor is exceptionally compact. The suppressor measures 10 inches long and has an outside diameter (O.D.) of 2.75 inches.

The suppressor does add a significant amount of weight to the muzzle. The Clandestine 12 suppressor weighs approximately 3.75 pounds. For those who may be concerened about the weight, Tac Ops is currently working on a prototype of a lighter suppressor that is quite revolutionary.
The suppressor is a sealed unit and is designed to be user maintainable. All maintenance requirements are performed without disassembly. Cleaning is by immersion. Petroleum naphtha (safety solvent) is recommended for this purpose.

The Clandestine 12 package is built around the a customized Remington Model 870 shotgun. The Remington 870 is the most widely used police shotgun. As with all of Tac Ops weapon systems, the attention to detail on the Clandestine 12 is superb.

All of the metal parts, except for the bore and chamber are finished in Walter Birdsong’s proprietary mattte NATO Green-T® and Black-T® finish. Birdsong’s finish was developed specifically for use on weapons. It’s highly wear resistant and has excellent corrosion resistance and lubricity. Widely regarded as the best finishish of it’s type, it’s specified by the FBI HRT and numerous government agencies.
The Clandestine 12 is supplied with two barrels: a standard Remington 18-inch cylinder-bore barrel and a 14-inch barrel with the Clandestine 12 sound suppressor permanently attached. The suppressed barrel has a 21-inch overall length. A Wilson Combat ® / Scattergun Technologies magazine extension tube is supplied for the standard barel...

So there ARE suppressed shotguns out there.

However, since Hollywood exaggerates everything else (firearm projectiles suddenly sound like darts or something when coming from suppressed firearms and there's no metallic noises from the metal of the gun as the breech and the working parts open and close like in real life) I'm pretty sure that they exaggerated how quiet this one is as well.

It's like the suppressor on some .50 BMG's, the suppressor reduces the noise, but then it's only as loud as a 30-06. It just reduces the noise somewhat, it doesn't take it away altogether or reduce it to just a 'whump' that couldn't be heard in the next room of a quiet motel.
 
Nothing is impossible on the big screen. It`s all dazzling you with sights and baffling you with bull. Watch enough superman movies and get drunk while wearing a superman outfit = disaster.
 
Television producers will also lower the sound of large "booms" anyway, who wants 5 mins of near silence and then a full volume 12ga blast over your surround sound? typically with a speaker beside your ear. on shows like future weapons they will have .50bmgs sounding like .22's just so you wont go deaf.
 
It is totally possible to suppress a shotgun.
The thing is, the technology wasn't available in 1980 when this little adventure was supposed to be taking place.
People at that time would duct tape a plastic 2 quart soda bottle and then tape this to the end of a single barrel or pump gun.
These improvised "suppressors" are good for one or at most two shots and they really only moderate and redirect the sound waves.

The exit hole on the suppressor in the movie is too small to be a 12 guage because the gun is a movie prop, it isn't designed to shoot real ammunition, only blanks, just keep telling yourself "it's only a movie" and don't read into the details too awful hard or you will end up not enjoying the movie.

I liked No Country For Old Men, the movie.
I liked the book even better.
 
I just finished watching The Lord of the Rings. There is no way that ring could make someone invisible. And that Gandalf cat? Please, there's no way that dude is riding on some eagle in flight.:neener:

AFWIW, I hated No Country for Old Men. Was there an actual story line? If so I missed it.
 
The characters, acting and filming was excellent. The focus and story line fell apart toward the end of the movie. I did not even know that Tommy Lee Jones's character was the main character till the movie was over. Weird.
 
The characters, acting and filming was excellent. The focus and story line fell apart toward the end of the movie. I did not even know that Tommy Lee Jones's character was the main character till the movie was over. Weird.

EXACTLY!

I think one of the big problems with suppressing a 12 ga is the large diameter of the bore! It simply allows too much gas to get out.

Its why 9mm's are easier to suppress than a .45acp.

Tom
 
Any and all weapons can be suppressed, the only prob is how effectively.
The limitations with suppressing shotguns With standard supersonic ammo the flight noise of shot is so high, that the suppressed noise is only 5 - 6 dB lower than as unsuppressed. If one gets or can load subsonic ammo, the noise reduction is just enough for effective hearing protection. The above is quoted from the manufacture of the suppressor.

The reason Suppressors being deployed on say the 50 cal: 1 - Can reduce the sound signature to the levels of a 308. 2 - Prevents dust from flying up, keeps surrounding foliage from moving from the blast and almost completely hides the muzzle flash. 3 - The suppressing effect on the noise and the absence of pressure shock inflected on the shooter and spotter. All ads up to Keeping the remaining "Targets" from locating the location of their demoralizer. Remember were talking about "Targets" hundereds of yards away not next to you.
 
No Country would have been immensely better if "Sugar" had walked outside after killing the girl and BOOM! Been laid out by Tommy Jones' character. Would have at least ended satisfactorily.
 
there are bad men out there, always have been, always will be.

but you're right, it would have been a much more happy/satisfying ending if TLJ took him down. Still, i loved the movie.

I wouldnt mind a silenced saiga12 either. : D
 
i thougt the .45 is easier to surpress then a 9mm because most .45acp rounds travel under 1000 feet per second, so they dont cause a sonic boom..
You are correct.

The .45ACP is one of the easiest rounds to suppress because many standard loadings are already traveling under the speed of sound, so no supersonic crack with full power ammo, and no special rounds with reduced energy are necessary.

However smaller bores are more effectively suppressed because less gas and sound escapes directly through the center of the bore without being directed through the baffles.
So a 9mm can be suppressed better. However 9mm rounds must be subsonic to achieve a great advantage, and since the 9mm round achieves most of its energy from speed rather than weight, it loses a great deal of energy.
Some designs slow the bullet itself, resulting in less energy from standard rounds to achieve this, and others use special subsonic rounds.
You can increase the weight of the projectile to compensate somewhat, but only within a limited range.
 
Apparently they film crew ran out of money towards the end of the shoot.
The movie did leave a lot of loose ends and that is why you should read the book.

I spent three years down in the Austin area in the mid eighties and poked around a good portion of the state while I was there.
It was a weird place back then and Texas Rangers are still cool in my book.
 
I've been working up some sub-sonic loads for the 12 ga, and they definately are quieter than conventional rounds. At a range, you can fire them without hearing protection. More of a lighter bang than a crack. Only good for short HD situations, which is what I am trying to achieve.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top