Talk to me about small, steel-framed .380/9mm

[The Wiry Irishman]

For various reasons, I'm seriously considering picking up a small gun for carry in clothes and situations where my 1911 isn't viable primarily, and backup carry secondarily.

Problem is, tens of thousands of rounds through target guns has made me really finicky about what I like to shoot. Here are my requirements:

All metal, steel preferably. I just don't like how polymer guns feel when I fire them.

DA/SA. I prefer SA only, but having a DA/SA will give me the option of cocked & locked carry or hammer down DA carry depending on what's the wiser decision.

Has to at least pretend to fit my hand, so no pocket guns. I'm looking for something about the size of a PPK/s.

.380 minimum caliber. 9mm would great, but there don't seem to be many guns of this size chambered that large.

So far I'm leaning toward the PPK/S. It fits my hand really well, or as well as a gun that small can. I also like that kind of styling. At the last gun show, I also handled a SIG 232 (felt really bad in my hand) a Bersa 380 (felt pretty OK) and some little Kahr whose name escapes me at the moment (felt pretty OK, but its pricey, doesn't have the PPK look I like, plus I've heard you have to spend forever breaking them in before the feed reliably)

What else is out there that fits my description? What can you tell be about them? What can you tell me about the ones I've already looked at?

Thanks.

 

[Mastiff]

I picked up a CZ-82 from AIM a few months ago for $209. It appears brand new. It has ambidextrous safety, ambidextrous slide release and ambidextrous mag release. It can be carried double action or cocked and locked single action. It fires the 9x18 Makarov round. It is all steel construction.
If you prefer the CZ-83 is the same pistol in the slightly less powerful .380 caliber. The CZ-82 has polygonal rifling, the CZ-83 has standard rifling.
The pistol is a joy to shoot, very accurate and a natural pointer.

 

[Cuda]

Check out the Beretta Cheetah...


http://www.berettausa.com/product/product_pistols_main.htm

C

 

[woad_yurt]

Have you considered a Makarov? It's steel, DA/SA, and 9X18 has a little edge over the .380, stopping power-wise. I've owned 3 so far (just got a Bulgarian) and, after many, many rounds, have never had a single jam, no matter what ammo I had. It has 1/2 the moving parts of the Walther and you can get a good one for $200-$250. Parts are readily available. They're nice and flat, too.

 

[arthurcw]

...and some little Kahr whose name escapes me at the moment ...

Probably the MK9. Nice gun, BUT it's DAO. I like it. It's easy to shoot. Shoots +P with no problem and can (I believe) handle +P+, but not on a steady diet.

I think their metal guns are reliable, but their older ones were more so. Mine's an Elite 2K3 so I can’t speak 100% to their newer ones.

But again, it's DAO so I don't think it fits your bill.

And yeah, they are pricey. If you can find a deal, it's a good gun. Mine was long neglected on a dealer shelf because everyone wants polymers. The gun shop just wanted to move it so I got it for a bunch less than MSRP. Otherwise, I probably would have moved on.

plus I've heard you have to spend forever breaking them in before the feed reliably

I didn't have that issue with mine. I know many have had that with the polymers.

I did break the extractor on mine, but I think it was my fault. It was my first semi-auto and I didn't realize, at the time, you were not supposed to drop rounds directly in the pipe . I think I really weakened it and shortened its life by dropping snap caps in that way. (Snap caps I didn't even need since it's striker fired :banghead. Live and learn

 

[XDKingslayer]

It would be blasphemous if someone didn't mention the Bersa .380.

 

[grimjaw]

I've had two Kahrs: a K9 and PM9. I have not had these reliability issues that took forever to work out. The K9 worked like a top, and some days I'm sorry I sold it. Yes, they are pricey, but sometimes you can score a K9 used for about the price of a used Glock.

Makarov or CZ82 would be my only other two recommendations. I could never warm up to the PPK or SIG232.

I thought the Bersa was built on an aluminum frame?

jm

 

[ChristopherG]

Your visual criteria are a bit fuzzy to me, so I'm going to proceed without reference to them.

How about S&W's 3913? It's a DA/SA w/a 3.5" barrel and alloy (not steel) frame weighing in at 24.8 oz. S&W does offer a 3" nine, the CS9, but it's DA only, like the Kahr.

Or--since you like the 1911 platform, why not one of the 3" 9mm 1911's? There's the Kimber Aegis II, the Springfield EMP, the Para Carry 9 (w/LDA rather than true single action), and something (I forget the name) from STI. None are cheap, but you're a competition shooter, so you're used to that.

 

[66912]

Taurus PT-58 or Browning BDA. Pretty much the same thing.

 

[modifiedbrowning]

CZ Rami.

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

I can't believe I didn't think of a Makarov in this context. I LOVE Makarovs. They're such sweet little guns. That changes things a little bit.

Is there any quality SD ammo in 9x18?

 

[grimjaw]

TWI, Hornady and Corbon make (or made) SD ammo in 9x18. JE223 did gel testing on the Hornady round some time ago.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/var9x18mm.html

Looks like the Hornady might be a reliable expander but not a great penetrator.

There was some Silver Bear 115gr JHP imported for awhile that had very promising numbers, but is sadly no longer available.

jm

 

[robert garner]

size and looks of a ppk?
PA-63 Hungarian 9x18
Seems many like to denigrate this small auto BUT! alloy framed!
small, looks good, shoots well!,would like to replace the grips with something real flat, for the pocket. Some recommend a stronger recoil spring,though I've had no issues with mine, but may try it to see if it really does tame its negligible recoil.'Last I saw they were down to 99 $ !! (SWMBO) SAID No.
robert

 

[Flopsy]

I second the Cheetah motion. It might be the most expensive .380 on the market, but for good reason.

 

[searcher451]

Walther PPK. It set the standard years and years ago, and for good reason. The German-made Walthers are works of art and can still be found at decent prices, if you shop around and are patient (I just bought one for $400 in 95%+ condition).

 

[Pilot]

I'll third the Beretta 84/85 "Cheetah". However it has an alloy frame like the CZ RAMI alloy model. My Beretta M85FS is one of my favorite guns.

 

[MCgunner]

No single action riding condition one will ever go in my pocket! That's where the DAO belongs. P11 is my answer, has been for a dozen years now.

 

[JDGray]

CZ75 compact, or Rami, in 9mm.

 

[Spenser]

You mentioned you didn't like the 232 as you tried it. Would a change of grips help things? It's a great gun, and I liked it a lot better after adding some nice wood grips. The stock grips were a bit thick in the palm for absolute comfort. And it can ride in the pocket with the right holster and pants.

The PPK is another option, as opposed to the PPK/S. It's a bit smaller, but shoots mighty nice.

Since you've voted out the pocket option, you might consider a Smith 3913. Eight shots of 9mm in a pretty small package, DA/SA.

If you're really looking to drop some dough, what about an H&K P7? Possibly a nice used Sig 225?

I know you don't like the polymer stuff, but an H&K p2000sk meets every requirement you have, other than the all-metal option..... CDNN has 'em for $689.

Some food for thought, anyway....

 

[Steve H]

Mustang may work for youbut probally too small. How about a Governtment pocketlite?

 

[strat81]

CZ 2075 RAMI.

If you like the 1911, also check the Springfield EMP.

 

[HisSoldier]

Star S and SS models, Llama locked breech .380, Iver Johnson Pony, Colt Government .380. Garcia Pony, All are steel framed. In spite of what folks say about Llama's mine is very reliable, and is the closest .380 to a 1911 internally.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

The CZ RAMI sounds like it meets the greatest number of your needs. Be sure you can manipulate the safety levers easily. I found them too thin, flat and far forward for myself, but it was a polymer model, too. There is also the CZ75 Compact, but this is larger, about the same size as a SIG P228.

There is also the Kahr K9 - roughly PPK/S sized and all steel, but DAO. I suggest, if possible, trying Kahr's brand of DAO out before rejecting it.

 

[Mad Magyar]

Walther PPK. It set the standard years and years ago, and for good reason. The German-made Walthers are works of art and can still be found at decent prices,

+1

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

I saw one of the CZs at the show, but didn't get to handle it. That would definitely be another option to look at.

No single action riding condition one will ever go in my pocket! That's where the DAO belongs. P11 is my answer, has been for a dozen years now.

Nor in mine. Whatever gun I end up getting will live in a holster of some sort.

Check out the Beretta Cheetah...

Thanks! I haven't gotten to handle one, but I've always been a big fan of Beretta ergonomics.

You mentioned you didn't like the 232 as you tried it. Would a change of grips help things? It's a great gun, and I liked it a lot better after adding some nice wood grips. The stock grips were a bit thick in the palm for absolute comfort. And it can ride in the pocket with the right holster and pants.

New grips might improve it, I'm not sure. It just felt incredibly weird to me.

Since you've voted out the pocket option, you might consider a Smith 3913.

That looks interesting, too....

Thanks for all the responses.