Talked to an anti last night at the gym...

[Don Galt]

You should argue with the antis--- but don't waste time on it. You can plant the seeds.

Or better yet, if you know them well enough, invite them to the range.

I used to be a liberal and had vaguely anti-gun opinions (The gun issue wasn't my primary issue)... but a Lifetime NRA member-- who I made fun of when he told me about his membership-- took me to the range. We never did agree on politics during our friendship, but he planted the seeds.

My single issue hasn't changed, I've just realized the Democrats were lying about it and the republicans don't really support the constitution so I can't support either.

But don't fall into the trap of thinking the world is homogenized into two groups, leftists and republicans. Many of the republicans are just as anti-gun and just as socialist as the leftists.

And many of the leftists are that way purely because they support human rights. And those people-- all you have to do, is show them how all human rights should be supported, and eventually they will come around.

 

[Joe Demko]

But don't fall into the trap of thinking the world is homogenized into two groups, leftists and republicans. Many of the republicans are just as anti-gun and just as socialist as the leftists.

And many of the leftists are that way purely because they support human rights. And those people-- all you have to do, is show them how all human rights should be supported, and eventually they will come around.

This is the single most intelligent thing I have read on a gunboard in a very, very long time.

 

[Werewolf]

DorGunR Told the World:

During the LA riots I was working for McDonnell Douglas in Long Beach, CA
A co-worker was a vocal anti gun person......but when the riots started, he came to me and said "Jim, I need to borrow one of your guns to protect my family."......... I loaned him a gun with plenty of ammo.

You are a heck of a guy and much more understanding than me.

I'd have told him to fork off. I'd then have told him that if he got into trouble and he or his family were in danger that he should just call the cops - they're there after all to defend him and his family.

Maybe a little actual fear in his life would change his attitude about self/family defense and the most efficient tools available to effect it.

 

[Skofnung]

DorGunR,

I was placed in a simmilar position several years ago. A female friend of mine that was a rabid anti found out that she was being stalked by a guy that she went on a date with once. After a sleepless night, she called me and asked if she could borrow a gun that day.

I said "NO."

I did not say this to prove a point to her. I said no because it is my firm belief that if you give someone a tool that he/she does not know how to use, you are courting disaster.

I told her that I would be glad to take her out and teach her to handle a weapon, but I would not giver her one without training her first. She took me up on the offer and after that, went out and bought her own gun. A Remington youth model 870 in 20 gauge. Obviously she is no longer a rabid anti.

It was noble of you to want to help protect your friend, but just handing over a piece to a novice is dangerous. That's my opinion anyway.

Oh yhea, the stalker-boy lost intrest in my friend after four unidentified young males caught him skulking around her house the very same night that she asked me for the gun. I am to understand that they politely asked him to leave the young lady alone.

 

[Abominable No-Man]

Had a guy in my unit ask me to borrow a gun once, too.

Last year about the same time that Malvo and Muhammad were sniping people, this guy, who is from that area, decided to go on leave and asked me if he could borrow a gun "to keep myself safe".


This guy is (and I'm not racist by any means) black, opinionated, and obnoxious. Usually flipping me $&**% about doing various masturbatory acts with an issue of "Guns & Ammo" when he's not extrapolating on the gangsta lifestyle .

Told him no.

Then he gets mad and starts spouting garbage about me not caring about whether or not his family is safe (honestly, I don't anymore but that's beside the point.....) and that I'm "trying to keep him down" (Really! He really said that!). I responded that I wouldn't do it because he doesn't have a permit for that area. Then he said something about disrespecting him (I thought "disrespect" was a noun, not a verb........).

Then I told him to get ed.

Some people have a lot of nerve......

ANM

 

[DorGunR]

Skofnung
It was noble of you to want to help protect your friend, but just handing over a piece to a novice is dangerous. That's my opinion anyway.

This guy was in the Air Force for 4 years.....so I figured he knew how to use a .38 Special revolver..........perhaps I shouldn't have assumed that.

 

[50 Freak]

Frankly, to tell you guys the truth, after working with lawyers for the last decade. I would NEVER NEVER NEVER loan out my gun to anyone outside the family or very close friends. Reason being is, if the girl you had lent the gun to, shoots some "stalker" climbing into her window and it turns out this guy was trying to climb into his girlfriends window (which was 2 windows down). Your friend has just shot an innocent person using YOUR gun. Even if the LEOs don't go after you for providing a gun to a untrained person, I'm sure the lawyers will find a way to drag you into the whole thing.

Now if you had a gun that was untraceable to you (but we all know that would be totally illegal and hence no one keeps those types of unregistered weapons, especially me) then I could see you lending said gun to a friend to protect themself. But you'd be taking a risk.

Being in Kali, we are held accountable for all of our weapons. If some kid comes into my house and steals my gun from my nightstand and shoots his friends, guess who is liable. Yep it's me. Walk into any gun store here in Kali and there are huge signs saying that if anyone makes a gun accessible to a kid (intentionally or not) and that kid harms someone, the gun owner, not the kid (or his parents) are liable.

 

[Skofnung]

DorGunR,

I did not mean to come accross to you the way I did. If you felt safe giving him the gun, then you probably made the right call. I just like to err on the side of caution.

 

[papercut]

DorGunR replied:
Yeah, papercut I should have done that........but hell, I'm a softie sometimes.......besides I knew he had two beautiful little girls ages 2 & 4
.......and the thought of those kids being hurt...........well

Oh, ok, it was for the children....

 

[fish2xs]

the doomsday device

I would NEVER loan out my guns, any more than I would loan out my car
to someone who doesn't know how to drive. But that's just me.

Extreme liberals don't think, they "feel". Then they map their thought
process to what what feels right to them.

Lastly, you'll never get an anti to agree with your position based on
politics or the Constitution, etc. My 'doomsday device' with respect to
arguing with anti's is this:

"What do you say to the 80 year old grandpa living in Florida
who wants to protect himself and his wife of 60 years from a
deranged, home invading, 20 year old crack addict? Huh?
Will you say 'sorry, but you are not allowed to have that old
service revolver?' "

I have shut up (and actually converted!) more anti's with this single
statement than any other. It puts a relateable face and feasible
scenario in their brain and there is simply no way to refute it!
(of course then some may go into "deny, deflect, disregard" and
mutter something about the children...)

Try it! My gift to you all... free of charge!
-phil

 

[chas_martel]

>And many of the leftists are that way purely because they support human rights.


In what universe are leftist supporters of human rights?
I am way confused on this point.

Leftest are the ones that supported Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Castro.

Please educate me.

 

[Moparmike]

chas, they supported those desp...er... great leaders for the protection of and human rights of the children.

 

[Don Galt]

Leftists support human rights. That is what makes them leftist. Unfortunately, they are not often adequately taught what human rights are. It took me many years before I read Ayn Rand and realized what human rights are.

This is also true of conservatives... they often do not support human rights.

At any rate, most leftists are there because they support one of the following human rights:

Gay Rights, abortion rights, black rights, chicano rights, woman's rights.

Now, all of these areas are places where people have actual, legitimate, human rights that have been trampled. Blacks have been lynched, gays have been killed, women have been prevented from voting.

The problem with both leftists and with conservatives is that they start to believe in "Rights" that don't exist. For conservatives, they often think they have the "Right" to force everyone to follow their religion, or to live in a town where no gay people live. For liberals they often think that minority rights extend to the right to a job, or the right to preferential treatment from the government.

Leftists are not unique in supporting bloodthirsty dictators.

When you realize that Human rights cannot create an obligation on another, then you can actually support human rights. This is an error in application that both republicans and Democrats often fail.

The right to an abortion, to own a gun, to marry whom you like (provided they consent) to practice the religion you wish, or not practice any religion, to hire or not hire who you like, to form clubs that are inclusive or exclusive, to support with financial contributions specific charities or to not support them and support other charities instead, or to not support any charities-- all of these come from the basic human right of self ownership. ALL of them have the same root.

You cannot support the right to self defense and at the same time oppose the right to not practice a religion. And vice versa-- as to do so is inconsistent.

The basic impetus for almost all liberals I've known is a desire to oppose racism or bigotry. That's it. When you realize that, you can use this to better effect to sway them into supporting all human rights.

I have not figured out how you convince conservatives who think they have a monopoly on human rights to recognize they are wrong. Ususally they revert to a "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" kind of an emotional response.

 

[Sunray]

"...the guy she was talking to was in full agreement..." Of course, he would. He's trying to get his ashes hauled and was likely agreeing with her so you, a potential rival for said hauling, would go away. Apparently, his mama didn't teach him about sharing. Just as well. Sharing is communism.
"...Leftists support human rights..." Yep, so long as they have more than everybody else, they do. Firm believers in, "I know what's good for you and you don't." So they are.

 

[nick89302]

Sunray, I believe Don Galt was refering to the rank and file leftists who don't give much thought to the policies that the elite leftists propose.

 

[BHPshooter]

Sunray, I believe Don Galt was refering to the rank and file leftists who don't give much thought to the policies that the elite leftists propose.

I'm sorry, but I have never met in person a liberal who has actually thought about any of their politics. Not one. I know there must be one out there somewhere, but the big thing with liberalism, especially with the young, is that it's mainstream.

A co-worker was a vocal anti gun person......but when the riots started, he came to me and said "Jim, I need to borrow one of your guns to protect my family."......... I loaned him a gun with plenty of ammo.

And thus we see a liberal, who emotes rather than thinks, only needs to experience fear to begin to understand. Very noble thing you did, DorGunR.

Wes

 

[AZLibertarian]

I don't think I'd loan out any guns. If a friend was that concerned about the safety of his family, I might invite that family to take up sleeping bags in the family room. I'd have to assume that an 'anti' would have little to no training with firearms, and lending out one of mine would be irresponsible at best. It would be a good opportunity to begin to change some thinking. Besides, if I loaned out guns, those would be that many fewer in my house.

Most 'anti's', IMO, don't think anything in their lives through. The limit to their horizon is--What time's the game on tonight?, What's for dinner?, Where are we going on vacation this year? They never ask themselves--What are the unintended consequences of today's hot-button issue? What possible future events might really throw a wrench into my plans or safety? Who can I really depend on for help?

I'm not terribly bothered by the failure of the school systems to teach rational thought. I've always believed this was my job, more than some NEA teachers. They're good for rules of grammar, how to do a physics experiment, etc., but teaching right from wrong, the function of government, and how to debate with those who don't think things through is something I think I'll keep on doing.

 

[Joe Demko]

"Liberals/leftists don't think, they feel."

The vast majority of "conservatives/rightists" fit that very same description.

 

[Don Galt]

Well, my reply got eaten by the downtime theHighRoad just had.

Anyway, the jist of it was that the vast majority of conservatives and liberals-- just people-- follow their emotional responses rather than reasoned approaches to making political decisions.

The Libertarians may be more rational as a whole, mainly because to become one you have to reject a lot of propaganda and conventional wisdom. But they have their share of emotional types as well.

On many topics I think conservatives are more likely to talk to you than liberals, who seem more likely to shut you out and yell at you. But then, bring up homosexuality, or an opposition to christianity and you'll often produce the same response from conservatives.

Its unfortunate... if people were trained to think logically when they were young, the country woudl function much better. We'd be getting much better government, that's for sure!