TAR 21 (and bulllpups in general), and 5.56mm

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Vulgotha

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Advertised as the "Tavor Assault Rifle of the 21st century" (TAR 21) this is a weapon that boasts comparable\superior accuracy to the M16 and an identical fire rate (according to the IDF).


It's a bullpup design (action behind the trigger in the stock), and comes with a MARS red dot site integrated into the weapon itself (so no zeroing required). Though I think you can detach it if need be(?).

A colleague and I have had many disagreements about Bullpup vs. Central Loading.

I would think that the best example of the bullpup design would probably be the TAR 21 given it's sophistication and specifications. Although I'm sure the Steyr-Aug SA80 and FAMAS are all equally eligible to "debate" purposes.

Just like the aging M16 the TAR 21 uses 5.56mm NATO. Any thoughts on this round? Do you think NATO nations should switch to a slightly higher 6.xxmm style round for a bit more punching power?

What are your thoughts on this new rifle and the BP design?
 
Practically no one in the United States has handled a Tavor, FAMAS, or SA80 so most opinions on them are conjecture. If you want a bullpup in .223 your choices are pretty much limited to either one of the AUG clones, the FN FS2000, or the Bushmaster M17S.

In my experience, the triggers on these guns tend to be heavy and squishy, which is not conducive to good marksmanship.

.223 is a capable round and the archives are full of discussions about it.
 
I have a fondness for the bullpup design; kinda odd considering that I'm left-handed, which is supposed to be the worst thing to be with most bullpups.

There are two main deficiencies to most bullpup designs that I see...

1) Most designers are using a transfer rod/plate which removes the sear from the area of the trigger and puts it back in the traditional hammer/striker area. This allows a certain amount of slack which most shooters find detrimental to accurate shooting. I believe I recall hearing that Kel Tec designed their RFB with the sear at the trigger location, but I can't say for certain. Of course, if electrical/battery power were more highly regarded you could just put a strain gauge on the trigger and have an electrical pulse ignite the ammunition for a fully adjustable, perfect no-slop trigger. (We can wish, can't we?)

2) With the exception of HK's G11 bullpup, FN's P90 and the not-yet-produced Halo/Monolith/P12 shotgun, everyone is using traditional magazine designs and construction. With the design of the bullpup being different, it stands to reason that maybe, just maybe, the design of the feeding mechanism may need to be different as well. We should all note that both the G11 and the P90 use magazines held horizontally above the receiver. The P90 magazine inserts to the front and the G11 inserts to the rear if I remember correctly.

As for k-Booms, it remains something to be aware of, but a layer or two of Kevlar or a bit of titanium does wonders for one's sense of self-preservation.

Regarding 1) above, I wonder how a capacitor powered up through the mechanical action of firing a round of ammunition would work? Running out of power shouldn't then be a problem, especially if the act of firing once provided enough energy for two or more followup shots to be taken, the excess energy could be discarded, just as it is now. Power up the capacitor with a 5-round charge and you'd be pretty much set.
 
I also love the idea of a bullpup, and although I'm right handed, I would want a model that ejects to the front (FN FS2000 or Kel Tec RFB) or ejects to the floor (FN P90). The reason being that in a tactical situation, one might need to switch shoulders to fire around cover to make less of a target of one's self. I for one don't care to eat hot brass. I'm surprised law enforcement and military in the U.S. don't go for bullpups yet.
 
I'm waiting for the MagPul PDR. I'd gladly pay the $200 for an SBR version.

The biggest issues for people like me weaned on the conventional layout are reloads - it's slower to reload a bullpup. And balance. Most Bullpups are neutral balanced, while most conventional rifles are a bit muzzle heavy. In snap shooting, a muzzle heavy rifle gives you a tactile feedback of where the gun is pointing.

If you've never handled a conventional rifle, neither of these is probably an issue.
 
Well, I've fired the SA80, FAMAS, AUG and own an older Bushmaster M17 (no longer in production) that's been modified by the late Kurt from KKF's gunsmithing.

First, I think the SA80 just plain sucks; the FAMAS and AUG are actually decent, but take some getting use to. As already mentioned the balance is great and you can get a much more compact design with a longer barrel for better velocity. Reloads are slower and going prone with a 30+ round magazine takes some getting use to as well.

Another concern is having viable BUIS. The sighting plane is much shorter and even with BUIS, you accuracty with irons won't be as good as conventional rifle/carbine accuracy. Optics are your best option for maximizing accuracy. I can't remember too much about the triggers on the issued bullpups, but they due tend to be less than ideal. Evidently Kel-Tec's new RFB is supposed to be adjustable and incorporates some decent differences to make a better trigger.

Steyr still has their AUG's available and Microtech has their MSAR-AUG copy.

FN's FS2000 is also available.

Kel-Tec is slowly getting their RFB production on line and they are starting to show up...other than the current .308 offering they are planning 5.56 and 7.62x39 in the future.

Prices are pretty steep for most of the viable bullpup designs. And yes, a 6.8mm/6.5mm would be a nice upgrade if you could get past the politics and logistics shift.

ROCK6
 
I won't even engage in the 5.56 cartridge discussion. Hashed and rehashed. Dead horse.

I own a MSAR StGE4 bullpup (AUG clone). Like every other weapon system that has "survived", the bullpup system has its advantages. Foremost,

  • It makes a compact package...you can squeeze a 20" barrel in the space roughly of a traditional carbine config. My 16" AUG is stupidly compact and handy
  • The geometry of the thing means you have much less moment arm for recoil forces. Muzzle flip is practically zero and shot to shot recovery is very fast.

However, even though I like my AUG, the drawbacks of a bullpup system are still there.

  • It is practically impossible to get a decent trigger. To generations of shooters who have known nothing but Halo3/Counterstrike or have only experienced a stock AR15 trigger, it may seem ok...but the fact remains that with a long linkage, the trigger on a bullpup is mushy and "indistinct". My AUG has a relatively good trigger...surprising to me even. But it is still crappy.
  • Mag changes are difficult. Yes, I know you can find youtube videos that show guys changing mags really quick, but no matter how fast you are with a bullpup, you would be faster with a conventional drop free mag located in front of the trigger
  • Support side shooting is difficult...unless you have forward ejection like the FS2000. You have to go through some pretty significant gymnastics to shoot without getting a faceful of brass.
  • Less easy to access the action if you have a stoppage...minor thing though, in my book.
By the way, I like my bullpup. It has limitations, though, just like any system.

2zfk9ea.jpg

OK, fine...I'll talk cartridges. I'm fine with the 5.56 in this platform...but when MSAR starts shipping the 6.8 barrels and bolts, I'll upgrade. Especially since I can use my PRI 6.8 AR15 mags in this beast.
 
Ive got a Bushmaster m17s It is kinda neat, shoots good soper relable, uses ar mags,but feels weird as all get out to me. Cant put it in the gun safe because it is to short, weighs 8lb seems real heavy in that short platform. Proably gonna sell or trade it in near future. Like to have ar 10 cause Im a 308 kinda guy.
 
I love my M17, with the modifications that I have made it is very nearly ideal (for me). It is a little heavy but it balances extremely well and points naturally and quickly for me. It has not had a single malfunction since th magazines were replaced with good ones. I have found the AUG (and clones) to also have good ergonomics and point well but are butt ugly IMO. The PS90 also handles very well and is extremely quick and agile, but is a little anemic when limited to semi only. The F2000 feels a little clunky in my hands, it is just a little too wide and large IMO, but shoots nicely, and is very reliable. My DTA SRS has everything that I wanted in a precision rifle, including the fabled great trigger (set to about a lb with no creep). No experience with the Tavor, FAMAS, or the SA80, but I have little doubt that they are just as effective as the other examples that I have fired. Personally I would jump all over a Tavor or a SA80...the French can keep the ugliest weapon ever devised. Nice to know that the Tavor *may* be imported soon, may have to make room in the safe...but it should fit sideways on the shelf. Will probably add a Kel-Tec RFB in .260Rem or .308Win to the collection soon. Yeah, I kinda like a bullpup. :D
 
I've always had my eye a bit on the FS2000; as far as bullpups go it seems like the most innovative design and I really like ergonomics.
 
It is practically impossible to get a decent trigger. To generations of shooters who have known nothing but Halo3/Counterstrike or have only experienced a stock AR15 trigger, it may seem ok...but the fact remains that with a long linkage, the trigger on a bullpup is mushy and "indistinct". My AUG has a relatively good trigger...surprising to me even. But it is still crappy.
Click to expand...

Try the RFB's trigger. It's comparable to, if not better than, a decent M1A/M14 trigger, IMO.
 
Just wait until Charles Daly starts selling them next year.
Click to expand...

I am really hoping this will happen, my only concern will be that's going to be way out of my acceptable price range:(

However if the price is somewhere around $1500 I'll definitely be adding one to my collection.
 
However if the price is somewhere around $1500 I'll definitely be adding one to my collection.
Click to expand...
+1, $1500 would be great on a nice little carbine. Any word on the bbl length of these fabled firearms (16" I hope)?
 
Whilst on the topic of bullpups, Prexis, who are a known "build it from a kit" manufacturer and supplier are shortly to release an L85A1 retro-engineered kit.

http://www.prexis.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=P&Category_Code=NEW

There is a write up on the Weapons Guild site

http://www.prexis.com/sten/homebuilder/index.php?topic=6027.0

Now this is NOT apparently a true 100% internal copy but assuming it is a piston and not DI looks very interesting.

It can apparently be provided in both raw kit form all the way through to the to fully finished ready to transfer to your FFL.

I just hope he has all the bloody flaws of the original A1 ironed out, somehow I feel it would be unlikely that I could send it in to H und K for a refit to A2.......:evil:
 
There is an interesting discussion going on right now in a thread on arfcom. (See: Tavor Development Thread on ar15.com.) Go to page 17-18 of the thread for the discussion of barrel length. We are trying to decide whether or not to go with the original 14.95" barrel with a permanently attached flash suppressor, or offer a 16" barrel with a removable suppressor. In any case, there will be at least 3 models initially, in configurations with a 14.95"/16" and 18" barrels.

Your comments are welcome.
 
Welcome to the discussion Michael (CD), Personally I would be very happy with a 14.95+flash suppressor version. I believe that it would sell well and the 18in. version could be used in states where bans forbid the use of a muzzle device. I am very interested in purchasing one, has the price been set yet?
 
For the TAR 21? You can get one from Canada for 3000 USD... OR it may be 3k in Canadian currency.

Either way it's still a substantial amount.

But the TAR 21 isn't exactly an inexpensive AR to begin with...
 
Michael,

One of the primary advantages of the bullpup design is that it allows a greater barrel length with the associated advantages in a shorter overall package.

Providing a barrel length which means the weapon has to be either a registered SBR or has to have a bodged flash suppressor/muzzle brake makes no sense as you are throwing away a core advantage of the platform.
 
Practically no one in the United States has handled a Tavor, FAMAS, or SA80 so most opinions on them are conjecture.
Click to expand...

I have! (All of them!)

The triggers of bullpups vary from abominable (at the low end) all the way up to cruddy (at the high end). (AUG triggers seem to be best.)

The other thing about bullpups is that when firing full-auto, the amount of gas that is inhaled by the shooter just about asphyxiates you!
 
The triggers of bullpups vary from abominable (at the low end) all the way up to cruddy (at the high end). (AUG triggers seem to be best.)
Click to expand...
That is BS. That is a blanket statement and simply not true. Most bullpups have bad triggers but some do not...some are exceptionally good. I know of one in particular that has a great trigger...it is one of the best triggers that I have ever pulled on any type or class of rifle.
 
Would you consider the bullpup an inferior design, overall compared to central loading?
 
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