TAR 21 (and bulllpups in general), and 5.56mm

[Maverick223]

Would you consider the bullpup an inferior design, overall compared to central loading?

NO, personally I find it to be a superior design. Loading is a simple operation if you have trained with the weapon system. The OAL is shorter, with better ballistics from a longer barrel. The weight is very well balanced, making the weapon very comfortable and ergonomic. However, it is a design that you should "try on" before you commit to buy, as many disagree with my assessment WRT the ergonomics of the platform.

 

[iamkris]

That is BS. That is a blanket statement and simply not true. Most bullpups have bad triggers but some do not...some are exceptionally good. I know of one in particular that has a great trigger...it is one of the best triggers that I have ever pulled on any type or class of rifle.

Wow...I won't say you are wrong but I will say I am very skeptical. Knowing the geometry of a bullpup trigger, I have a very hard time swallowing that.

Until I know what your experience is with different rifles / triggers it's hard for me to judge that statement. It's a little like a listening to a Russian in 1979 Leningrad say "The Zil ees one of zee best automobiles that I have ever driven of any type or class of vehicle." Gotta put the statement relative to the sample size.

I'd really like to know how that trigger compares to my Tikka, Gisselle or a Merkel trigger.
Then again, I'm happy to be proven wrong!

 

[Maverick223]

that are not classified as assault weapons.

I find it to be better than than the Tikka or Gisselle, but the Gisselle is not really a fair comparison as the lock time is much longer, and neither are bad triggers. I have not shot a Merkel and have very little experience with any doubles, so I can't comment. I do not think it is good as a Sako TRG.

 

[iamkris]

Cool. I'd love to know what rifle that is...and figure out how they made a bullpup so crisp.

I have a MSAR E4 and it has a surprisingly good trigger...for a bullpup.

 

[Maverick223]

Cool. I'd love to know what rifle that is...and figure out how they made a bullpup so crisp.

It is a Desert Tactical SRS in .300WM, I think they really beefed up the linkage and tightened the tolerances to make the trigger as good as it is. There is no way I would have purchased it if it had a trigger that was sub-par.

I have a MSAR E4 and it has a surprisingly good trigger...for a bullpup.

Yes, they do, I have toyed with one and they are exceptional for an autoloading BP configuration rifle. I plan to do a little modification on my M17 to see if I can get it to break that clean.

 

[Vulgotha]

Mav, what is it that you do? You seem to be a source of great knowledge on this topic and alot of members here greatly respect you.

I don't mean to seem impudent or anything for asking, I really am curious. (You've been extremely helpful).

 

[Maverick223]

Mav, what is it that you do?

Thank you for the kind words, Vulgotha. I am a Civil Engineer by trade, I specialize in materials and work for a Forensic Engineering firm. I am also a bullpup connoisseur so to speak.

 

[Vulgotha]

In your own words, can you describe to me here (or perhaps in a private message?) the list of advantages that bullpups have over central loading in your experience and in theory?

I know of a few naturally, but hearing it from someone who knows them and has greater depth of knowledge is a bit more helpful.

 

[Maverick223]

Greatest advantages of the bullpup design are the ability to maintain a high velocity (by the use of a longer barrel) for a given overall length, and the favorable balance afforded by keeping the rifle shorter whilst moving more mass to the rear of the rifle. Also through the use of a tensioned barrel a bullpup configuration has the potential to have greater accuracy than a conventional rifle design. This is only used in the Bushmaster M17 and the Walther WA-2000 that I am aware of. Fully auto fire can be better controlled with the action balanced above the grip, this is why the Uzi is more controllable than most other firearms...the bullpup is designed in a similar fashion and therefore affords greater control. The bullpup is also points much quicker than a comparable converntional rifle, which is a clear benefit in urban conflict and other confined spaces.

Disadvantages include: slower magazine changes, less sight radius (with iron sights), not as effective with the archaic bayonet, and a generally poor trigger (which as mentioned, can and has been improved).

 

[Justin]

I'm waiting for the MagPul PDR. I'd gladly pay the $200 for an SBR version.

Me too. Sadly, I don't think this will happen. I had a friend inquire with MagPul at SHOT this year about the PDR, and he was told that the project was on hiatus for an indeterminate amount of time so they could focus on spinning up the Masada project.

For the TAR 21? You can get one from Canada for 3000 USD... OR it may be 3k in Canadian currency.

Three kilobucks is a lot of money. For comparison, $3K will buy you an absolutely top-of-the-line JP15 from JP rifles, with at least a couple of hundred bucks left over.

We are trying to decide whether or not to go with the original 14.95" barrel with a permanently attached flash suppressor, or offer a 16" barrel with a removable suppressor.

Michael, if it makes any difference, my preference would be for a model with the 16-inch barrel. This would offer the advantage of a (presumably) very slight velocity gain, as well as the much more practical advantage of being able to install an after-market flash suppressor with a minimum of fuss.

 

[GunTech]

Not all of us consider the neutral balance of a bullpup a desirable thing. I've shot three gun matches with the AUG and find the AR-15 points better in snap shooting. Trap shooter talk about a gun's 'swing'. With a bullpup, there's not tactile feedback on pointing.

Also, as has been noted, it's slower to reload a bullpup. It's just a matter of ergonomics. Bullpups typically have horrific triggers. Like everything else, it's a tradeoff. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. It depends on your requirements. Bullpups have been around for a while, but conventional rifles still make up the vast majority of military rifles.

Interestingly, the countries that have adopted bullpups with good experiences are mostly countries where potential soldiers have little or no experience with guns before military experience. Take from that what you will. It could simply be a case of liking what you already know.

I really tried to like bullpups (specifically the AUG) and tried using one for three gun. I went back to a conventional rifle.

YMMV

 

[Maverick223]

I'd like to see the Magpul PDR as well, but I don't know if that will ever happen.

 

[GunTech]

I suspect that the only way the PDR would happen if IF they get the Massada/Bushmaster ACR/Remington ACR finished, and IF it sells, and if some military expresses interest in the PDR, and IF they purchase enough to justify tooling.

I suspect the PDR will end up like the MagPul folding SMG - an interesting design that never went anywhere.

I have to say that the latest iteration of the Masada/ACR is not to my liking. It's listed on Remington's military site.

http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/acr.htm

I liked the old handguard style

It also looks like Remington may not offer the rifle for civilian sales. Bastids!

 

[Maverick223]

I suspect the PDR will end up like the MagPul folding SMG - an interesting design that never went anywhere.

I have to agree. [cry]I need a hug.[/cry]

 

[Justin]

I suspect the PDR will end up like the MagPul folding SMG - an interesting design that never went anywhere.

My understanding is that the folding SMG design demoed at SHOT was a non-firing mockup. Since then, they've shown a functional version. It was demoed on one of those military weapons tv shows. Click here to see the video.

So there has been *some* movement forward, at least on that design.

But even a folding Glock carbine doesn't interest me nearly as much as the PDR. It's the size of a PS90, and takes STANAG magazines. This is what also interests me about the Tavor. My biggest gripe about the AUG clones seems to be that none of them can be ordered from the factory with the ability to accept standard AR15 magazines.

 

[SHvar]

I strongly agree with the following statement...

"Interestingly, the countries that have adopted bullpups with good experiences are mostly countries where potential soldiers have little or no experience with guns before military experience."

As for myself, a long history with the M-16/AR-15 and other more traditional rifle designs, I dont like the feel of the bullpup design, I dont like any bullpup trigger Ive pulled yet.
The statement above about soldiers having little to no firearm experience before the military holds true even in most cases when they are first exposed to the M-16 rifle design compared to traditional rifle designs.
Drill sgts and firearm instructors in the military years ago used to ask how many in the company had alot of former fiream experience, and did alot of hunting. They would make the statement that those who answered up would be the lowest initial scoring in qualification, and would take the longest to adapt to the M-16 design.
Personally, after my initial few firings and qualifications, my scores went to expert, and I never shot below that afterwards.

 

[Maverick223]

I still would like to know if the official price (in the US) has been set for the Tavor. I am really hoping for sub $2k. :banghead:

 

[Charles Daly]

I still would like to know if the official price (in the US) has been set for the Tavor. I am really hoping for sub $2k.

The price has not been set yet. You can expect a formal introduction at the 2010 SHOT Show if all goes well between now and then.

In the meantime, as far as the barrel length is concerned, we will probably go with 16" + the flash suppressor for the base CTAR model (or what we might call the "IDF" model).

There will be at least 2 models at introduction, possibly 3. One will be the aforementioned IDF version and another will be close to their "Sharpshooter" model with an 18" barrel, rails galore and a bipod. Visit www.CharlesDalyForum.com for more news as it becomes available.

 

[Maverick223]

You can expect a formal introduction at the 2010 SHOT Show if all goes well between now and then.

Thank you for dropping in and answering a few questions...I look forward to its unveiling...and if the price is right will be purchasing one.