The .45 ACP and Law Enforcement
- Thread starter Timthinker
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Timthinker
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TestPilot, I agree completely with your assessments. The .45 ACP was adopted by the military as a defensive weapon, since the rifle/carbine has been the soldier's primary weapon. The situation is not the same for police officers. In many instances, LEOs must rely upon their handgun as their primary weapon since trouble can erupt without warning. Given this unenviable situation, LEOs often want to maximize the magazine capacity of their handguns, something that is quite understandable given the hazards of their profession. This circumstance has led to police departments selecting semi-auto pistols chambered for smaller rounds than the old .45 so the handgun can accomodate more ammunition in a single clip. I was wondering when one of our members would emphasize this point. Good job.
Timthinker
Timthinker
RustyShackelford
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FBI Special Agent Clorice Sterling used a 19911a1 .45acp...
Oh wait that's not a real person, just a novel/film character, LOL,
.
But really, author T Harris had FBI agent Sterling pack a full size 1911a1 .45acp with "skateboard tape" on the grips,.
Rusty S
Oh wait that's not a real person, just a novel/film character, LOL,
.But really, author T Harris had FBI agent Sterling pack a full size 1911a1 .45acp with "skateboard tape" on the grips,
. Rusty S
If she were detailed to the office SWAT team, which iirc she was, she would be elligible to carry a 1911a1. At that point, whether she chose to place skate bord tape or not on the front strap would be up to her. But that's quite a drift.
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The whole issue around the supposedly fierce recoil of the .40 S&W is really over stated.
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The whole issue around the supposedly fierce recoil of the .40 S&W is really over stated.
chachy
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I live in Cuyahoga County, the largest in Ohio (Cleveland and Metro areas), and all the Sheriff's Deputies carry Sig P220R's.
RustyShackelford
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1911a1s-grip safeties...
I think in the Harris novel, she tapes down the 1911a1 grip safety,
. I've heard of this before but not with the tacky(feeling) tape...
BTW: To my limited knowledge, FBI field offices have some regional SWAT and special "jump out" units that do carry the Springfield 1911a1 pistols. I think the FBI's elite HRT(Hostage Rescue) now use Les Baer or some other custom made 1911a1 models,.
Rusty
I think in the Harris novel, she tapes down the 1911a1 grip safety,
. I've heard of this before but not with the tacky(feeling) tape...BTW: To my limited knowledge, FBI field offices have some regional SWAT and special "jump out" units that do carry the Springfield 1911a1 pistols. I think the FBI's elite HRT(Hostage Rescue) now use Les Baer or some other custom made 1911a1 models,
.Rusty
halfacop
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I have a 1911 with skateboard tape run over the front strap. It works great and beats the hell out of not having any stippling at all. As a matter of fact - it beats the hell out out of most factory stipping jobs that I have felt.
Northalius
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If they can't handle racking a slide and/or recoil from a .45 ACP... then are they actually even ready to handle a 230+ lb. criminal trying to take their gun away and violently kill them? :banghead:
When the compromises start, then you'll see quality drop to all-time lows.
If they can't handle lifting weights and STAYING in shape, then they have no business becoming a police officer. Because racking a slide of a .45 ACP pistol will be the least of their worries as regarding strength when they're out in the field being attacked by big guys who DO work out all the time in jail! :banghead:
RustyShackelford
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Norty,...
You can pound your head until you get a concussion and pass out but it won't stop women and some smaller men from being hired/trained as sworn LEOs.
The FBI/DoJ faced a huge lawsuit based on weapons training/quals. The female agents won in court and major changes in policy were made. You are 100% right about the bad guys lifting weights and fighting cops but in today's EEO world, more and more cops are smaller/weaker too,.
Rusty
You can pound your head until you get a concussion and pass out but it won't stop women and some smaller men from being hired/trained as sworn LEOs.
The FBI/DoJ faced a huge lawsuit based on weapons training/quals. The female agents won in court and major changes in policy were made. You are 100% right about the bad guys lifting weights and fighting cops but in today's EEO world, more and more cops are smaller/weaker too,
.Rusty
which is wrong, if you can't do the job, you can't do the job... man or women, does not matter.
On a recent lock out, the local sherrif sent a 4'10" 90lb with her duty belt on women to evict several known meth addicts. I'm just glad she took my advise and called for lots of back up(granted she could have already made up her mind). Ended up taking 7 officers to remove the one man. If she would have went in, chances are she would have not come back out.
On a recent lock out, the local sherrif sent a 4'10" 90lb with her duty belt on women to evict several known meth addicts. I'm just glad she took my advise and called for lots of back up(granted she could have already made up her mind). Ended up taking 7 officers to remove the one man. If she would have went in, chances are she would have not come back out.
As to why .45 ACP is not as popular as other rounds for law enforcement I'm not sure. I think it's at least part economics, and not only to do with the hardware. Is .45 *significantly* more effective than .40 to justify the greater cost, lower capacity and fewer number of pistols available in .45? Not that there's anything *wrong* with a SIG220, but you know what I mean.
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The problem with the .45 ACP is that female cops and small-statured cops and many police recruits just can't handle the recoil of a .45 ACP.
Yes, much scrutiny to that comment and all the similar ones in this thread and elsewhere that I commonly see, equating .45 ACP to a "real man's caliber." Only real, beer-drinking, he-men can possibly handle the awesome power of the .45 caliber automatic Colt pistol!! To shoot the .45, one must have the strength to break large granite boulders merely by shouting harshly at them!
Please.
The first time I shot a 1911 I thought: wow, that was kind of underwhelming. Especially compared to a .357 Magnum, even out of a full size revolver. The first time I fired .40 S&W it was out of a SIG P229 and I remember the experience as snappy and unpleasant, worse than a .357.
The full size platforms for .45 are usually larger (i.e. heavier) than smaller pistols that can be chambered for an equal or larger number of .40 S&W rounds, and people with smaller frames and hands might find them more cumbersome to wield, but I don't really think it has much to do with the recoil of the gun.
jm
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The problem with the .45 ACP is that female cops and small-statured cops and many police recruits just can't handle the recoil of a .45 ACP.
Yes, much scrutiny to that comment and all the similar ones in this thread and elsewhere that I commonly see, equating .45 ACP to a "real man's caliber." Only real, beer-drinking, he-men can possibly handle the awesome power of the .45 caliber automatic Colt pistol!! To shoot the .45, one must have the strength to break large granite boulders merely by shouting harshly at them!
Please.
The first time I shot a 1911 I thought: wow, that was kind of underwhelming. Especially compared to a .357 Magnum, even out of a full size revolver. The first time I fired .40 S&W it was out of a SIG P229 and I remember the experience as snappy and unpleasant, worse than a .357.
The full size platforms for .45 are usually larger (i.e. heavier) than smaller pistols that can be chambered for an equal or larger number of .40 S&W rounds, and people with smaller frames and hands might find them more cumbersome to wield, but I don't really think it has much to do with the recoil of the gun.
jm
I think Jeff Cooper had something in one of his books about the subject of women in the military/police/etc. Seems he said (iirc) have them qualify with a .375 H&H - five shots timed in the black, and they're good to go.
Some of the more "butch" ladies might even be able to pass such a qual.
I say teach cops to shoot - who wants them out there with a wonder-nine, spraying down a neighborhood with highly-penetrating rabbit rounds?
Some of the more "butch" ladies might even be able to pass such a qual.
I say teach cops to shoot - who wants them out there with a wonder-nine, spraying down a neighborhood with highly-penetrating rabbit rounds?
Harley Quinn
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That is funny
sithanas
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The police at Michigan State carry Sig 220s - so does the ELPD I think.
DougDubya
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My girlfriend is 5'2" tall.
She informed me on many of our shooting trips that "the P226 recoiled worse than the 1911 we fired" and she didn't flinch when she emptied a .50 AE Desert Eagle into the target. All she'd grown up with were .22 rifles.
Handling a 1911, for her, was zero problem. And she didn't even break her grip while using the Desert Eagle, while she accused me (rightfully so) of doing the fairy dance.
Now, the Walther PPK 380 we tried AFTER the Desert Eagle hurt her to shoot (and slapped my palm up really hard too).
A full 5" 1911 doesn't recoil that badly, and recoils back along the forearm. The high bore axis of the SIG undid her, while the miniature size of the .380 also proved uncomfortable for BOTH of us.
She informed me on many of our shooting trips that "the P226 recoiled worse than the 1911 we fired" and she didn't flinch when she emptied a .50 AE Desert Eagle into the target. All she'd grown up with were .22 rifles.
Handling a 1911, for her, was zero problem. And she didn't even break her grip while using the Desert Eagle, while she accused me (rightfully so) of doing the fairy dance.
Now, the Walther PPK 380 we tried AFTER the Desert Eagle hurt her to shoot (and slapped my palm up really hard too).
A full 5" 1911 doesn't recoil that badly, and recoils back along the forearm. The high bore axis of the SIG undid her, while the miniature size of the .380 also proved uncomfortable for BOTH of us.
BlindJustice
Member
A Deputy SHeriff let us go with a warning, Saturday night 70 in a 55 zone.
I asked him at the end of the traffic thing, about his weapon
Whitman County, South of SPokane WA in SE WA Dey land
Wheat country converted from Glock .40 S&W to Kimber 1911s
two years ago. He said he didn't have to clean the Glock as much.
So, that makes it Sheriff's Dept. as well as the City and WSU - it's
a college town, use .45 ACP - Pullman = biggest town in the county
at just under 30,000. The sheriff was driving a dark green Ford F150
I think a stepside, looked like it had power and suspension. .
Randall
I asked him at the end of the traffic thing, about his weapon
Whitman County, South of SPokane WA in SE WA Dey land
Wheat country converted from Glock .40 S&W to Kimber 1911s
two years ago. He said he didn't have to clean the Glock as much.
So, that makes it Sheriff's Dept. as well as the City and WSU - it's
a college town, use .45 ACP - Pullman = biggest town in the county
at just under 30,000. The sheriff was driving a dark green Ford F150
I think a stepside, looked like it had power and suspension. .
Randall
1. Someone being able to bench press a 230 lb felon with one arm does not mean they're a good shot.
2. 40S&W or 9mm SIG's slide is even harder to rack than that of a 1911.
3. Even small female can be trained and pumped enough to bench 300 pounds I guess, but that won't enlarge their hands or lengthen their finger to reach the trigger of a pistol that is too big for them. This is besides the question of how many females would join if a department's recruiting poster says "We'll pump you up to match a 230 pound felon."
4. If you want police recruit pool to be limited to ones who can out muscle felons who did nothing but eat and pump weight in prison, your only chance of filling the necessary man power is to lower the background standard to where most of the people who's life style some how fits doing nothing but eat and pump weight would pass. Guess where those population are.
Another "the whoile recoil thing is over stated at best, over blown BS at worse" comment. The slide rack thing, too.
There are perhaps reasons why the .45 acp isn't more popular within law enforcement circles, but the reason doesn't rest with those two myths. Now, the uninformed decision makers believing those two myths... well, that may be a reason.
There are perhaps reasons why the .45 acp isn't more popular within law enforcement circles, but the reason doesn't rest with those two myths. Now, the uninformed decision makers believing those two myths... well, that may be a reason.
Harley Quinn
Member
Recoil is not a myth and the reason for the situation is you are shooting a 230 grain bullet. For every action there is a reaction sort of thing, is going on.
The extra weight of the handgun helps, I have a 380 1935 Beretta that shoots well it is small but heavy enough to be a good shooter.
The extra weight of the handgun helps, I have a 380 1935 Beretta that shoots well it is small but heavy enough to be a good shooter.
DougDubya
Member
Harley, again, my girl's no powerhouse prison weightlifter. She handled 230-grain ball out of a 5" 1911 like nothin'.
Miss Debbie
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Recoil?
I just bought a Kimber .45ACP and only 4'9" and this is my favorite pistol so far I had a Glock 22 and the Kimber seems to be more controllable than the Glock.
I just bought a Kimber .45ACP and only 4'9" and this is my favorite pistol so far I had a Glock 22 and the Kimber seems to be more controllable than the Glock.
Harley Quinn
Member
Just got back from a trip and discussed the 45 with some of the guys I worked with (LAPD reunion) Many like them many don't. The 40 is the issue today and seems to be the favorite.
Size and grip was one drawback. 1911 are not in anymore, (Iam sure there are a few out there) Glock seems to rule along with the XD.
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/...service-pistol-in-45-acp-with-a-thumb-safety/
Size and grip was one drawback. 1911 are not in anymore, (Iam sure there are a few out there) Glock seems to rule along with the XD.
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/...service-pistol-in-45-acp-with-a-thumb-safety/
DonGlock26
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My 2 cents as an Army vet, LEO, and FI:
The police dept. adopted the revolver at a time that autos were known to jam often. The only exception would be the 1911, but even the Armed Forces didn't want those carried cocked and locked (I've seen ND's with 1911 in the Army & the PD). So for safety and reliability, the revolver was king.
Then, the DA auto was invented. It was safer than the 1911, and came in 9mm, which held alot of rounds. When criminals started using hi-cap 9mm's on Police and each other, the Police wanted to at least be able to match them. 4 CHP troopers were gunned down in Newhall, CA during the early 1970's, and the slow reloading of the revolver was cited as one factor. A NJ State Trooper was gunned down by 2 Left-Wing terrorists on a traffic stop in the early 1980's. His revolver ran dry, but their 9mm pistol (Hi-power(s?) did not.
Since, autos had became more reliable and safe, and officers felt a lack of capacity was a problem- the 9mm got the nod over DA .45acp autos like the S&W and Sig. Plus at the time(mid-1980's), 9mm pistols could be compact, while the .45acp DA autos were still pretty big and heavy.
After Miami, the wounding effect of 9mm was called into question, but the need for plenty of ammo in the gun and on the belt was not. So, the .40 was invented. If wounding had been the only factor, the Sig P220 probably would have got the nod from the FBI.
I started my LEO career with an issue M-10 .38spl., but I quickly bought a then new G-17 for the extra rounds and the 9mm with JHP had a better street rep than the .38spl. My Dept went to the P228 9mm with a "safe" 12++ DAO trigger pull. (we still had a few ND's).
Now, we have P220R's and we like them. They are a bit too big for plainclothes/off-duty IMHO. I know from OIS's that 147 9mm Golddots and .45ACP RangerT works with good placement(two DRT's, respectfully). FWIW
The .45acp seems to be becoming more popular in Law Enforcement. I think the increase in Meth-Heads and cocaine users taking considerable punishment before dropping has been behind this trend.
The police dept. adopted the revolver at a time that autos were known to jam often. The only exception would be the 1911, but even the Armed Forces didn't want those carried cocked and locked (I've seen ND's with 1911 in the Army & the PD). So for safety and reliability, the revolver was king.
Then, the DA auto was invented. It was safer than the 1911, and came in 9mm, which held alot of rounds. When criminals started using hi-cap 9mm's on Police and each other, the Police wanted to at least be able to match them. 4 CHP troopers were gunned down in Newhall, CA during the early 1970's, and the slow reloading of the revolver was cited as one factor. A NJ State Trooper was gunned down by 2 Left-Wing terrorists on a traffic stop in the early 1980's. His revolver ran dry, but their 9mm pistol (Hi-power(s?) did not.
Since, autos had became more reliable and safe, and officers felt a lack of capacity was a problem- the 9mm got the nod over DA .45acp autos like the S&W and Sig. Plus at the time(mid-1980's), 9mm pistols could be compact, while the .45acp DA autos were still pretty big and heavy.
After Miami, the wounding effect of 9mm was called into question, but the need for plenty of ammo in the gun and on the belt was not. So, the .40 was invented. If wounding had been the only factor, the Sig P220 probably would have got the nod from the FBI.
I started my LEO career with an issue M-10 .38spl., but I quickly bought a then new G-17 for the extra rounds and the 9mm with JHP had a better street rep than the .38spl. My Dept went to the P228 9mm with a "safe" 12++ DAO trigger pull. (we still had a few ND's
). Now, we have P220R's and we like them. They are a bit too big for plainclothes/off-duty IMHO. I know from OIS's that 147 9mm Golddots and .45ACP RangerT works with good placement(two DRT's, respectfully). FWIW
The .45acp seems to be becoming more popular in Law Enforcement. I think the increase in Meth-Heads and cocaine users taking considerable punishment before dropping has been behind this trend.
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