the 5.7x28 nato - my theory

[Das Nemesis]

i see this round gets a very bad rap. and personally i think that the bad rap comes from a large misunderstanding and ignorance regarding what exactly qualifies a round as "lethal".

the 5.7x28 is a small, compact round...that has yet to commercially be put to its full potential. i have spoken to people who hand load their own 5.7s which have broken the 3000fps range out of their ps90s, bringing it to almost the same level as 5.56s.

most often people seem to get lost in figures and numbers, and seem to forget what is most important when it comes to a firearm, the bullet.

now, when you consider that a .308 can generate almost 3000 foot pounds of impact that seems great, on paper. how much of that 3000 do you think is really transferred to a soft target? not a whole lot, the round most commonly goes straight through leaving a large hole, but not causing a lot of damage throughout the entire area. a shoot to the abdomen by a .308 would be painful, traumatizing...but most likely not immediately lethal.

one advantage to the 5.7 is the light recoil, high velocity and high ammo capacity. the 5.7 varmint grenade round would be ideal for personally defense, as well as military operations against unarmored foes. for those who do not know about this round, when it enters the target it basically explodes, sending shards of metal through out the area of impact. one shot to the chest or sternum could be instantly fatal, causing damage to the lungs, heart, liver and kidneys in just 2 shots. shots to the legs or arms have a high chance of cutting arteries and causing the foe to bleed to death internally, if it does not cut the skin.

now look at the armor penetrating abilities of the rounds, which is what they were made for. the small, fast round can easily make cheese of your typical forms of body armor, though this is easy for many other rounds, the 5.7 is more practical due to its lower recoil, allowing you to put more rounds in vital areas quickly...again...being shot by a armor penetrating round falls into the category of dangerous, but not likely lethal from a single body shot, depending on shot placement.

in my honest opinion a 5.7x28 round could be used out to ranges of 500 yards, the same as a 5.56. with the right powder, primer and round this is not far fetched. this however, is not where the round would be practical to be used, as you would figure. the 5.7 could be easily one of the best rounds for 10-250 yard engagements.

honestly i believe that the best, and most versatile caliber is yet to be made...a 10mm caliber round with many types of rounds and shell sizes would be ideal. a 10x30mm round for handgun/sub machine gun, 10x50mm rifle round, and 10x70 sniper rifle round...what is the advantage of this?

the rounds themselves would have a standard 5 gram weight (77.16 grains), with some rounds reaching up to 150 grams (231.49 grains).

with standard 5 gram loads the rounds ballistic chars would look like this: zeroed for 100 yards

10mm x 30mm
5gram@3250fps=1806ft/lb of impact with 10 inches of drop at 200 yards

10mm x 50mm
5gram@3750=2404ft/lb of impact with 7 inches of drop at 200 yards, and 88 at 500 yards.

10mm x 70mm (this would not be using the 5 gram load, but a standard 10 gram)
10gram@3500=4200ft/lb of impact with 55 inches of drop at 500 yards, and 406 inches of drop at 1000 yards.

the advantage here to this is for round universality. one caliber can chamber a wide range of rounds, completing tasks that are required where other rounds would falter. allowing for 4 base weapons, all chambered for one caliber, however different shell lengths, could accomplish the tasks of our very wide range of weapons today.

 

[evan price]

Nevermind the fact that I personally don't intend to shoot through body armour, and otherwise there are other cartridges that do just fine for what the FN 5.7 tries to do besides shooting through armor, and at a much lower cost per shot, in a paltform that is a bit stouter.

5.7 is a real yawner IMHO.

 

[GregGry]

the 5.7x28 is a small, compact round...that has yet to commercially be put to its full potential. i have spoken to people who hand load their own 5.7s which have broken the 3000fps range out of their ps90s, bringing it to almost the same level as 5.56s.

The best hot loaded aftermarket ammo I have seen penetrates to around 12.5 inches in ballistics gel out of a pistol, with 0 expansion and it seemed to lose most of its yawing action (likely due to the fact the bullet was a solid). When a FMJ .223 round is compared, the 5.7 is no comparison.

most often people seem to get lost in figures and numbers, and seem to forget what is most important when it comes to a firearm, the bullet.

The best bullet doesn't mean much. Its the combination of the bullet, quantity of gun powder, and the firearm that make or break performance. The average penetration of the 195 lf round is in the mid 9 inch range in ballistics gel. The expanding bullets even less. The varmint Grenade bullet would likely be in the 3 inch range.

now, when you consider that a .308 can generate almost 3000 foot pounds of impact that seems great, on paper. how much of that 3000 do you think is really transferred to a soft target? not a whole lot, the round most commonly goes straight through leaving a large hole, but not causing a lot of damage throughout the entire area. a shoot to the abdomen by a .308 would be painful, traumatizing...but most likely not immediately lethal.

A proper center of mass hit from a 308 is most certainly going to be more lethal then a shot from a handgun at the same place. Sure if you have a through and through where the bullet passed through a area of no bone/organs you might not stop the threat, but that goes with any caliber. If you are suggesting that a shot from the 5.7 in the abdomen is better then a .308 because the bullet tumbles then i think you need to do some more reading.

one advantage to the 5.7 is the light recoil, high velocity and high ammo capacity.

I agree with the light recoil part, its a easy gun to shoot. However the high velocity doesn't mean its better at stopping the threat. The high capacity is sort of moot since you can get polymer guns with 19+1 capacity in 9mm, which will penetrate more then the 5.7, expand to a larger diameter (its bigger to start with)

the 5.7 varmint grenade round would be ideal for personally defense, as well as military operations against unarmored foes. for those who do not know about this round, when it enters the target it basically explodes, sending shards of metal through out the area of impact. one shot to the chest or sternum could be instantly fatal, causing damage to the lungs, heart, liver and kidneys in just 2 shots.

Actually its far from what you want. It would likely cause the worst looking wound, but the worst looking wound is not a indication of lethality. It would likely be in the 3 to 4 inch penetration range in ballistics gel. To stop the threat you need to damage something vital, such as the heart or the brain. I have doubts that the VG round would even make it to the heart of a human. Not to mention if it did it would have pinhole sized holes which isn't going to stop a threat cold. If you hit the organs you need them to be stopped as fast as possible. The VG round is not going to do that.

shots to the legs or arms have a high chance of cutting arteries and causing the foe to bleed to death internally, if it does not cut the skin.

Believe it or not people have fought for minutes after having their heart shot through. Collapsed lungs aren't instant killers either. You want a caliber that can reliably reach organs. Even then you can't expect someone to just fall over dead, if they have enough fight in them you might be surprised if they continue to fire at you for 10 seconds or more after being mortally wounded.

now look at the armor penetrating abilities of the rounds, which is what they were made for. the small, fast round can easily make cheese of your typical forms of body armor,

The 190 rounds seem to penetrate around 10 inches in ballistics gel. They would likely be stopped by most modern ballistic vests. After penetrating a vest one can only wonder what the penetration would be.. 4 to 6 inches maybe?

though this is easy for many other rounds, the 5.7 is more practical due to its lower recoil, allowing you to put more rounds in vital areas quickly...again...being shot by a armor penetrating round falls into the category of dangerous, but not likely lethal from a single body shot, depending on shot placement.

The 190 round has a tendency to tumble after impact, the same way the 195 does. Effectively they are close to the same as far as performance goes on just tissue, with the 190 penetrating further in ballistics gel. The 190 and 195 (and other after market bullets that have a solid bullet design) are the best bet a person has with the round when it comes to being a man stopper. They are the only rounds that will reach between 9.5 inches and 12.5 inches of penetration (12.5 being the aftermarket round). If you can't reach the organs you can't stop the threat with a hit to center of mass.

in my honest opinion a 5.7x28 round could be used out to ranges of 500 yards, the same as a 5.56. with the right powder, primer and round this is not far fetched. this however, is not where the round would be practical to be used, as you would figure. the 5.7 could be easily one of the best rounds for 10-250 yard engagements.

At most the 5.7 round has 400 to 450 ftlbs of muzzle energy. At 200 yards its likely similar to a hot .22lr round. The 5.56/ .223 round has 1,000+ at the muzzle, combined with heavier bullet weights. At 200 yards it would likely not penetrate more then 4 inches in ballistics gel. Let alone at 500 yards.

The fact is the cartridge is not equal to the 5.56/.223. When you compare the hottest load out of a ps90 it still doesn't go above 500ftlbs of muzzle energy, and thats with a lighter then 50 grain bullet (most are in the 20 grain range). Considering a 55grain .223 round is in the 1K ftlb of muzzle energy, again there is no comparison since the bullet design and size is very similar.

The closest comparison is the .22mag. Sure the 5.7 shoots flatter, and can penetrate things the 22 mag can't, but in ballistics gel the results are similar. If anything the .22mag penetrates further. So far you can't have your cake and eat it to with the 5.7. Aka if you want penetration (read more then 12 inches) the bullets tend to act just like a .22mag, aka no tumble. If you want the tumbling action (or expansion) then your talking 9.5 inches of penetration or less. I don't believe in bullet tumbling enough to take a 5 inch penetration loss from the 9mm or .45 rounds i use.

The 5.7 round has way to much hype and mystery surrounding it. Its not anything special, it has to adhere to the laws of physics. If it had 55 grain bullets that penetrated to 14 inches in ballistics gel, while tumbling, it might be something. Everything i have seen thus far shows it falls far short. Of course if it did do such a thing it would likely have more recoil then it does and its light recoil as a feature would be negated.

I don't hate the 5.7 round, I think its a novel idea. However the rifle or pistol really don't offer the level of performance that they are touted to. Its no 5.56, or 9mm/ 45/ 40 killer. Hell if you could get armor piercing bullet for the 9mm, it would likely penetrate further in ballistics gel after going through a 2a vest then the ss190 does on just bare gel.

 

[Guitargod1985]

in my honest opinion a 5.7x28 round could be used out to ranges of 500 yards, the same as a 5.56.

There's no way the 5.7 can be used effectively against a human target out to 500 yards. Sure, it's flat shooting - for a PISTOL ROUND. The ballistic trajectory of the 5.7 even in its best loading doesn't come anywhere near the 5.56. Plus, when it comes to squeezing 3000 fps out of the 5.7, you're only pushing maybe 20 or 25 grains, not 55 or 62 - and I'd have to see that to believe it.

 

[Walkalong]

have spoken to people who hand load their own 5.7s which have broken the 3000fps range out of their ps90s,

Not without some serious overpressure with 34 to 45 Grain bullets. Factory 197SR fodder gets about 2100 FPS from my 16" AR. My reloads will do a little better. The 27 grain stuff, even if you could get it to 3000 FPS, would be floating by the time it got to 500 yards.

 

[GregGry]

They are likely achieving 3K fps with low 20 grain weight bullets. That would only be in the area of 450ftlbs of ME.

 

[Bill2e]

Truthfully I just think the Fn5-7 in an ugly gun. It looks like an air soft pistol to me. If I am going to spend $1000 on a pistol I am going to like the looks of it as well.

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

10x70 sniper rifle round...what is the advantage of this?

the rounds themselves would have a standard 5 gram weight (77.16 grains), with some rounds reaching up to 150 grams (231.49 grains).

10mm x 70mm (this would not be using the 5 gram load, but a standard 10 gram)
10gram@3500=4200ft/lb of impact with 55 inches of drop at 500 yards, and 406 inches of drop at 1000 yards.

Check into sectional density, a 10mm bullet is hemoraging energy. For years the standard long range caliber was a 7.62x whatever, more and more shooters are moving to the 6x whatever loadings. The reason is the smaller bullet can have more mass for less frontal area, in effect its a heavier per caliber loading.

 

[Hostile Amish]

You contradict yourself by saying "you can't trust what's just written on paper" and then trusting what's written about the 5.7.

By the way, I like your 10mm idea.. just make it 9mm.

 

[MachIVshooter]

the 5.7x28 nato - my theory

Last I checked, 5.7x28mm has not been adopted by NATO.

i see this round gets a very bad rap. and personally i think that the bad rap comes from a large misunderstanding and ignorance regarding what exactly qualifies a round as "lethal".

Nobody said it isn't lethal. Most of us understand, however, that it lacks in combat effectiveness. Heck, .22 short is lethal, but I'm not gonna go fight the Taliban with my Remington model 24.

the 5.7x28 is a small, compact round...that has yet to commercially be put to its full potential. i have spoken to people who hand load their own 5.7s which have broken the 3000fps range out of their ps90s, bringing it to almost the same level as 5.56s.

Right. How are the sales these days on that Arizona ocean front property?

most often people seem to get lost in figures and numbers, and seem to forget what is most important when it comes to a firearm, the bullet.

No, we just understand that it's not that simple.

now, when you consider that a .308 can generate almost 3000 foot pounds of impact that seems great, on paper. how much of that 3000 do you think is really transferred to a soft target? not a whole lot, the round most commonly goes straight through leaving a large hole, but not causing a lot of damage throughout the entire area. a shoot to the abdomen by a .308 would be painful, traumatizing...but most likely not immediately lethal.

A .30 caliber bullet going through a body at 2,800 FPS does NOT just make a hole. The wounding mechanism is hydrostatic; energy transfer is a load of BS. When the .30 caliber bullet tears through the abdomen, it creates a large permanent cavity and a much larger temporary cavity. This displacement of tissue is so fast and severe that is causes organs and blood vessels to rupture, which means blood loss and failure of the organs that were hit. How immediately the hit is lethal depends on myriad factors, but a COM hit with a .30 caliber rifle tends to mean a dirt nap for the recipient.

one advantage to the 5.7 is the light recoil, high velocity and high ammo capacity. the 5.7 varmint grenade round would be ideal for personally defense, as well as military operations against unarmored foes. for those who do not know about this round, when it enters the target it basically explodes, sending shards of metal through out the area of impact. one shot to the chest or sternum could be instantly fatal, causing damage to the lungs, heart, liver and kidneys in just 2 shots. shots to the legs or arms have a high chance of cutting arteries and causing the foe to bleed to death internally, if it does not cut the skin.

This right here proves that you do not understand terminal ballistics as they pertain to lethality. Varmint bullets work great on varmints, small creatures who are typically between 2 and 5 inches thick in the torso, with very tiny bones and thin skin. A bullet does not need to penetrate deeply to inflict massive damage on a 3 pound praire dog. A 200 pound human is a very different story. These bullets that begin fragmentation immediately upon impact do not penetrate deep enough on a man-sized target. The bullet has to get to the vitals, and a bullet that turns to dust as it impacts the skin/fatty tissue/muscle will not achive that, so you end up with a nasty flesh wound.

You need to research gunshot wounds and spend a little less time watching explodin' varmints on youtube.

now look at the armor penetrating abilities of the rounds, which is what they were made for. the small, fast round can easily make cheese of your typical forms of body armor, though this is easy for many other rounds, the 5.7 is more practical due to its lower recoil, allowing you to put more rounds in vital areas quickly...again...being shot by a armor penetrating round falls into the category of dangerous, but not likely lethal from a single body shot, depending on shot placement.

No one has trouble controlling the M16 or M4, which will put an AP round through heavier body armor, and do so with enough velocity to inflict serious damage.

in my honest opinion a 5.7x28 round could be used out to ranges of 500 yards, the same as a 5.56. with the right powder, primer and round this is not far fetched. this however, is not where the round would be practical to be used, as you would figure. the 5.7 could be easily one of the best rounds for 10-250 yard engagements.

500 Yards? Dude, you need to spend some time on the range. Even the 5.56mm NATO is not a 500 yard cartridge; it was developed specifically because most combat engagements are under 300 yards, meaning that the 800 yard capability of the 7.62x51 was most often unnecessary.

The .22 Hornet is a much faster cartridge than the 5.7 FN, and you're sure not gonna find anyone advocating it's use to the 500 yard mark.

honestly i believe that the best, and most versatile caliber is yet to be made...a 10mm caliber round with many types of rounds and shell sizes would be ideal. a 10x30mm round for handgun/sub machine gun, 10x50mm rifle round, and 10x70 sniper rifle round...what is the advantage of this?

Well, we already have the 10x25mm, and it was tested by the military. They said nay. A 10x30mm would not fit in any standard handgun, and the larger grip frame required to accomodate such a cartridge would be too large for many people.

Assuming that you're keeping with the straight-wall cartridge design, your 10x50mm would be practically identical to the .375 Winchester. Developing slightly (~ 20%) more energy than the 7.62x39, it has a miserable trajectory and the cartridge weight in considerably more than the x39. As well, due to case diameter, your magazine capacity is reduced substantially compared to the 5.56x45mm.

The 10x70mm would be very close to the 400 Whelen, which is a very effective close range big game cartridge. However, recoil is rather heavy

the rounds themselves would have a standard 5 gram weight (77.16 grains), with some rounds reaching up to 150 grams (231.49 grains).

with standard 5 gram loads the rounds ballistic chars would look like this: zeroed for 100 yards

10mm x 30mm
5gram@3250fps=1806ft/lb of impact with 10 inches of drop at 200 yards

10mm x 50mm
5gram@3750=2404ft/lb of impact with 7 inches of drop at 200 yards, and 88 at 500 yards.

10mm x 70mm (this would not be using the 5 gram load, but a standard 10 gram)
10gram@3500=4200ft/lb of impact with 55 inches of drop at 500 yards, and 406 inches of drop at 1000 yards.

These bullets would be far too light. I don't have time right now to expound on the reasons why .400" diameter bullets need to weigh a whole lot more than 77-154 grains, especially where rifles are concerned. Suffice it to say that such light bullets would be of little use beyond dispatching small pest animals in a most messy fashion.

the advantage here to this is for round universality. one caliber can chamber a wide range of rounds, completing tasks that are required where other rounds would falter. allowing for 4 base weapons, all chambered for one caliber, however different shell lengths, could accomplish the tasks of our very wide range of weapons today.

So these would all be single-shot weapons or revolver-based designs? Because no conventional autoloader can function properly using cartridge cases that vary so much in length and power.

 

[cat9x]

burned OP

 

[Jaws]

While small bullets may expand, fragment, big bullets never shrink.

 

[Pulse]

the 5.7x28mm round is a decent round if used as intended.
intended= firing it out of a P90 at 900 rounds per minute out to ~100meters.

however, if you want a small caliber fully automatic PDW, the 4.6x30mm round does anything the 5.7x28 does, just better.

also, your 10mm caliber idea seams horrible ineffective, the Pistol/SMG round is far to powerfull and would kick the crap out of the users.

your rifle round has less power then 7.62x51mm NATO and it will almost certainly be heavyer and mutch larger then 7.62, lowering the magazin capacity to about ~12 rounds in a similar sized magazine if it would be bottle necked.

your 'sniper' round also looks horrible, it is weaker then .338 Lapua or .338 RUM and it will have a far worse BC, it also drops a lot more then the other two rounds.

 

[Acera]

Look what the designers of the round/rifle intended it's use for.

Front line combat troops don't carry this rifle. It is for the secondary combatants, like what our M1 carbine was designed for.

If this thing is so awesome, why don't the guys who shoot for a living carry it? It is a back up for those who are not supposed to be in a real fight.




If they could figure out a way to get a .17 rimfire to work in the design, I might buy one for plinking.

 

[Nero_Atrum]

You could just replace your sniper round with the .416 Barrett

 

[nwilliams]

It comes down to personal preference and what you look to get out of the round. It's not everyone's cup of tea but it works just fine for some. Also it depends on you source of information and what (and who) you want to believe in regards to its effectiveness. Remember that just because you read it on a forum doesn't always make the information you're getting 100% reliable. Do your own research and draw your own concussions, forums are a good source for opinions but sometimes the facts are a little lacking.

http://www.global-defence.com/2007/Utilities/article.php?id=40

As far as being more expensive to shoot, I disagree with that. My local shop sells Blazer .40 for almost $19 a box and I can get Hornady V-Max 5.7 for just over $19 a box.

 

[benEzra]

now look at the armor penetrating abilities of the rounds, which is what they were made for. the small, fast round can easily make cheese of your typical forms of body armor, though this is easy for many other rounds, the 5.7 is more practical due to its lower recoil, allowing you to put more rounds in vital areas quickly...again...being shot by a armor penetrating round falls into the category of dangerous, but not likely lethal from a single body shot, depending on shot placement.

The armor-piercing 5.7x28mm loads are not available to non-LEO civilians, and the non-AP loads won't penetrate anything rated to stop .357 magnum. (And a .357 with restricted AP loads will penetrate anything a 5.7x28mm will.)

The FiveSeven and PS90 are neat guns, and I'd love to have one or both, but they are much closer to .22 rimfire magnum than they are to even .223 Remington, never mind .308.

 

[Girodin]

Um the reason the 5.7 gets a bad rap is because people like you erroneously compare it to rifle rounds like 5.56. It is not a round that is meant to fill the same role as the those rifles.

I have a PS 90 and really like it BTW. I'll add that up front since any critque of the 5.7 is accused of being based in ignorance and blind hate.

I think the P90 is better contrasted to an MP5 than a M4. You see it making in rounds in that role, with the secret service for example.

I dont think much else in the OP is really worth responding to. It does continue what I see as a trend of the biggest 5.7 advocates seeming to have very limited experience with firearms generaly or combat firearms inparicularly. Also, they seem to have interesting ideas about terminal ballistics.

To repeat I love my PS90. It lacks the major advantages of a P90. It is still fun. I use mine to shoot jack rabbits and other varmints. Doing so and comparing the results with the results I have had with .223, 7.62x39, 22-250 .45 acp, ,357 mag has personaly convinced me that the Ps90 is far from the best defensive firearm I own.

Shoot a jack with a 5.7 and then one of those rounds mentioned above and compare the results. Do it a few hundred times and you'll see some trends. The 5.7 results are closer to those of a .22lr the others are closer to what one would expect were they using semtex.

I wont attempt a thread hijack but may start another one I would be interested in hearing discussion of the P90 vs the ionic MP5 in a submachine gun role

If this thing is so awesome, why don't the guys who shoot for a living carry it?

Some do but they use it for the role it was intended and as a replacement to submachine guns. As mentioned above the SS uses them. Also the I know the French DGSE uses the 5.7 round for some tasks. None of them use it as front line weapon I am certain they never will. When the debate rages about 5.56 being to little it is unlikely they will go smaller and weaker still.

 

[benEzra]

I think the P90 is better contrasted to an MP5 than a M4. You see it making in rounds in that role, with the secret service for example.

That comparison is a very good one, though I'd never thought of it before. And I suppose it would be accurate to say that the P90 trades some of the MP5's close-range lethality for more range capability (particularly with the optic), better controllability, magazine capacity, and compactness?

 

[bonedust]

^exactly. comparing it to the .223 isnt really appropriate, it wasnt built or designed to compete with the .223... for some reason thats just what people decide to do? i dont remember any .223 mass market semi auto pistols, right?

 

[Matrix187]

The .223 is staying, whether or not they change bullet weights. But, I think the 5.7x28 is a great round for a PDW (P90 obviously). They would be good guns for tank/artillery/air crews

 

[JImbothefiveth]

the 5.7 varmint grenade round would be ideal for personally defense, as well as military operations against unarmored foes.

The FBI has concluded that any round should go through at least 1 foot of ballistics gelatin. The varmint grenade won't go anywhere close.

one advantage to the 5.7 is the light recoil, high velocity and high ammo capacity.

But if you're talking about a rifle, the .223 also has high velocity and high capacity, not sure how the recoil compares.

when it enters the target it basically explodes,

That's not a good thing in a self-defense round, according to the FBI.

being shot by a armor penetrating round falls into the category of dangerous, but not likely lethal from a single body shot, depending on shot placement.

You don't shoot someone if lethal force isn't warranted. Also, there's a chance that it, especially with the varmint grenade, wouldn't reah anything vital.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Also, we civilians can't get the full auto version or the round the gun was designed to use.

And I almost forgot, welcome to THR

 

[Deer Hunter]

Don't feed the Trolls...

 

[JShirley]

7.62x25mm: the round the 5.7x28mm should have been.

John