The Beretta 92FS is the most common pistol in the world

[George Hill]

Dino Land BLOWS. Hate this farking place more than I hated a certain little airstrip I was stuck at in Honduras for 2 months. More than I hated the whole freaking country of Panama...
THIS PLACE - is a whole new level of BLOW followed by a whole new kinda SUCKAGE only found on a ship in space with a hull breach.
That, and I really don't like this place.

At least they have an A&W. *sigh*

If you see me in town driving around in my little Subaru - SHOOT ME... But shoot me with the most commonly used automatic in the world today. As soon as we figure out what the heck that is.

 

[Handy]

George,

You seem unhappy with the small, awful place in Neveda you are stuck in.



I live in Fallon, NV. You must be one of my neighbors.

 

[Preacherman]

How the hell is the mostly US issued 1911 going to be one of the worlds most common pistols? Where is this coming from? Hardly anyone even makes ammo for it.

Handy, don't forget that the 1911 design has been manufactured all over the world, in many calibers (not just .45 ACP by any means). Brazil and Argentina made it (the Argentine Ballester Molina is a 1911 without a grip safety): the Spanish firm of Star produced it in 9mm. Largo and 9mm. Parabellum by the thousands: China made (and still makes) it: etc. I remember in the South African military being issued a 9mm. Star as my personal defence weapon (horrible abortion of a pistol it was, too... magazines were too long for the 9mm. P. - I think they were originally designed for the Largo round - and jams were frequent). So I would not be surprised if the total production figures for the 1911-type pistol, in all calibers, were not significantly higher than for the Beretta 92 and its clones...

 

[CZF]

Looks like there are two criteria.

One of production, how many Berettas or P35s, CZ75s
were produced.

Another of how popular a given pistol is.

I'll tend to agree that the CZ75 offers some serious competition to the High Power..and that the Beretta 92F, FS is not as popular
outside of the United States as one might think. Take the fact that for the entire country of S. Africa. There is only One source
for Berettas. The SAPS carries the Z88.. a licensed copy. Before
the cheapo MAKAROVs flooded SA. The CZ75 was the best
selling defensive pistol.

Most S. American forces that i know of use 92F copies..the Taurus kind.The police in Brasil using the CZ75BD Police.

You can find Berettas in German and Euro gunshops, but few
forces use them, excepting the FRENCH and Italians.

I still think that with over 65 countries using CZs for either
miltary or police work. That you can find a Cee- Zed in about
any country in the world.

 

[Handy]

Preach,

If you're going to call a Star (which has a different trigger system, no grip safety and zero parts compatability) a 1911, why not just call any roughly similar SA Browning operation pistol a 1911?

Then you can call the Tokarevs, Sig 210s, Radoms, Astras, Arcus, Ballestras, BHPs, etc., etc. I'll bet if you add up all of those then the 1911 is quite common. CZ just started making an SA version of the 75, so that counts, too.


But aside from the US, a couple of S. American countries and some commercial guns made in China (they don't use them, they sell them), where are all those real 1911s?

 

[George Hill]

Message text written by "George Hill"
>Could you please be kind as to point me to your sources of
>information?<

Small Arms Today by Edward C. Ezell, also Jane's Infantry Weapons.

Also I know a lot of people in the gun business (polite name for arms
dealers) and military around the world, which is where I get the rest of it from.

I forgot Chile, BTW, FAMAE make the Beretta 92 under license for the Chilean Army, and they also exported it to some other South American countries. Although I think they might have given up on it, as they have the rights to distribute the Taurus guns in Chile, and the version they used to make was basically identical to the Taurus PT92.

I can't find my copies of these books... I think they are in one of the boxes that got put in the attic. Anyone has one handy?

The CZ-75 does not dominate in Eastern Europe, or anywhere that had Russian influence, it's not a Russian gun. It genuinely is not that common.
In Eastern Europe you'll see the Makarov or some weird adaptation of the Walther PP most often. Have a look at all the crap being seized in Afghanistan, mostly Tokarevs and a few Makarovs. No Army anywhere has adopted it as standard issue (except maybe some halfarse outfits in Africa) and only the Czech Police use it.

It was exported to Africa and South America, but in numbers that would even come close to the use of the Beretta in the US? No way. And in numbers that would rival the Beretta copies sold by Taurus, the local manufacturer?

As to South Africa, the standard issue pistol for the SADF is the Beretta 92F, called there the Vektor Z88, made under license. It is also the most commonly sold pistol on the civilian market. Definitely more common than the CZ-75, although a lot of CZ-75s have been sold there. In South Africa they levy huge import duties on firearms, so the local product wins out.

I gotta find something verifiable. This is driving me nuts.

 

[45auto]

Tough question.
It could almost be a two part question.
How many existing pistols are "laying around" in the world and how many are currently being produced and used?

I have read there may be as many as 5 million 1911 pistols produced, but how many are still functional and in use would be hard to tell. Hard to tell on the 5 million number also. Would the HP have numbers in that ballpark- give or take a million?

If the USA is the major user of pistols in the world, then Glock may take the title in a given time period. Their sales dwarf any other maker in the USA and they sell internationally.

How many Berettas did the goverment contract for over the years?

 

[coltjeeper]

45Auto,

They've taken deliver of somewhere just over 500,000.

 

[PCRCCW]

Forum and respectfully Goerge,
CZF is very knowledgeable about this stuff...he's been there and seen whats happening. Still converses with people all over the world he met while "abroad"....
Ill bet a fair amount that he can verify everything he states........
Hes human and could be wrong...but I absolutely wouldnt be against him
Shoot well

 

[45auto]

Coltjeeper,
Thanks, that's quite a bit although they have been the official sidearm for about 20 years I believe.
I wonder if they are in the '1911 mode' and will run these for the next 20 years just replacing parts or slowly building up the numbers as needed?
Given the nature of war, I assume the pistol is a pretty low priority for them anyway.