The closest I have come....

[lloydkristmas]

I will never ever carry pepper spray. If I feel threatened, I shoot. Simple as that. God I love Texas.

 

[chieftain]

Um....by that logic, you should dump any vehicle...since vehicle transitions are a prime time for assaults...and you should never go into a liquor store...or use an ATM...or even leave your house...

Please. The underlying reason for this situation was that the OP failed to keep a supply of extra fuel for the vehicle or fuel it up soon enough to avoid visiting an unknown fueling station . THAT would have prevented his having to visit a place late at night in a bad area, where he was unfamiliar with the layout. Nothing about his vehicle makes him more or less prone to bad situations.

Having said that, a jerry can or two of extra fuel for this kind of situation would be a good investment. If the longevity of stored fuel is an issue, then when you go to fuel up, pour the can into the tank and fill the can...as often as needed to keep the supply fresh. Simple, easy, and lets you use your preferred fuel stop and/or have an emergency reserve in case of SHTF, etc...

ETA: If it's natural gas or some other sort of difficult to store fuel, then you just need to make a habit of fueling up more frequently.

WHAT THE?

If your choice of vehicle REQUIRES you to go to a "bad" place to refuel if your normal refueling point is down, the vehicle is part of the problem. They are not practical at this time. You do have choices.

As to refueling calisthenics you are recommending, it is not practical for many folks who must not smell like they just refueled their vehicle. In fact where I work one can be disciplined/fired for that. Because among other problems it can trigger allergic responses in the patients. Of course I can further alter my normal life to make some folks happy, justified, and satisfied using their less than efficient vehicles. Ain't going to happen.

Me, I aint going to do it.

If one feels a need to use a less efficient mode of transportation, wait until the fueling points become available enough that a choice of safety is much more practical.

Yes, we all have had to refuel in a "bad" area, or one that went bad. The difference is we can NORMALLY choose a practical and safe place to refuel. It is a low probability for most folks. YMMV

Sort of like choosing to move to a neighborhood that has a lower crime rate. Crime can happen anywhere. It just tends to happen in some area's more than others. You get to choose. Some folks will insist they cannot. But then most folks can always come up with reasons they can't do something they don't want to do. There is a name for that.

As to pepper spray vs firearm in the above scenario. What went wrong here? A strange but safe employee was almost shot by a customer who was out of his element.

How do you think this would have gone down in court. Imagine if he did have pepper spray, and because it is not as deadly, had deployed it on the above said strange employee. I think the charges against our hero would have been at least assault and Battery, Probably a felony. And he would have been very guilty too. Any Current LEO's like to jump in?

You cannot use pepper spray if you could not shoot. Oh, and if the spray doesn't work, do you have a partner there to shoot the guy? Nope, now you must transition. Try that scenario in a Force on Force exercises. It just may change your mind about pepper spray.

Works great for police. Better than be unarmed, but not my choice when ever possible.

Say hello to Bubba for us.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[David904]

I suspect that there was more to the situation than many of the naysayers are taking into consideration. People talk about that "sixth sense," the ability to pick up on... things. Well, it isn't fake. It is very real and part of everybody's wiring. It is commonly referred to as your "gut instinct."

We are wired to pick up on those subtleties that will signal danger or security. Due to the fact that we largely live in an insular environment, we have been culturally bred to not pay attention to these signals. How many times have you ignored your gut instinct only to regret it afterwards?

I suspect that this guy was giving off that vibe. He's a street person and known to be antisocial - a loner. He may very well have felt hostile toward you and projected that attitude without ever intending to criminally act on it.

My say is that you picked up on plenty of danger signals and responded accordingly. Your forbearance is a testament to your maturity of judgment. You felt threatened and continued to size up the situation until you were certain how you were going to act and thus ensured your safety.

As for not going to shady places... Sound advice. I try not to go anywhere with a gun that I wouldn't go without one. But hey... Life happens. That is why you take your precautions, practice, and maintain your situational awareness. Everyone made it home that night. Nobody was hurt or arrested. Win/win situation. Plus you got the added bonus of a little street education.

I've drawn my gun 3 1/2 times as "Dave the average citizen." Scary stuff. (The 1/2 time was gun exposed and hand on the grip ready to draw. Other guy knew it.) Never had to fire a shot either.

 

[Larryect]

Thanks for all of the responses. It is interesting to me that this dicussion heated up with the idea of wheather or not you should carry pepper spray. I am still not sure which side is right. But, it does add one more thing to the belt, both as a tool and as a burden.

I will try to answer most of the points.

Although 03Shadowbob, it seems to me there is some inconsistancy in your advice. Here you posted:

Quote:
When you agree to a CHL, you agree to a higher standard of conduct. Under that higher standard, a "small mistake" is no longer acceptable.

Really? I must have missed that in the statutes.

fight it for principle. Just because you have a CCW doesn't mean you can't flip people off. From my understanding of the law flipping someone off is not a crime. Neither is telling a cop that his or her mother is a bucket for sailors. I am not saying you should do either of those though.
Personally, I used to flip people off all the time for doing stupid crap (South Florida=terrible northern drivers or illegal immigrants). Did it mean I was going to go on a shooting spree? Hell no. For anyone to suggest such is ludicrous. I stopped flipping people off mainly because I normally have my kids in the car with me and I figure they will learn how to do it soon enough with me helping them.

But yet today you say:

It never ceases to amaze me when I read these types of posts. You didn't need to stop for gas but you did even though it was an area of town you wouldn't normally go to.

Just saying you may want to think about it.

Not sure where you get the idea I didn't need gas. The next gas station was another ten miles from where I was in another area of town that is not so good either, or 30 miles in the other diection near where I work. I guess I could have left, gone home and Hoped my local staion was open the next morning, or have my car towed after I stalled who-knows-where. Does this justify taking the chance? Maybe not, but as I said, after observing, the guy appered to be occupied and probably belogned there. I have been to many "normal" stations where I have been hasseled, pan handeled and what-not as well. This is So Cal and although I am a native, it has been going into the toilet so quickly I would like to move.

You knew it was a bad area but you stopped anyways. You are still in your car when you see a "shady" character not far from you yet you turn off your car and get out. The guy comes directly to you and you tell him to stop right there and that is all you do.

see above for stopping anyway. As far as location, I know there is a bad area near that location, however I am not sure what the border is.

IMO, .... Use your head and spidey sense and don't think you can just stop anywhere you want because you have a gun.

I don't go into places because I have a gun. But, unfortunaly bad places are all around us and sometimes life takes us into or through them.

I do uderstand your points. Some other members have expressed similar issues in a different way as well, pointing out choices made.

dump the alternative fuel vehicle. It could have been the underlying reason you could have gone to prison for a long time. Your choice.

Could be an option. Although I have driven the car for 3 years and this is really the first issue I have had at a filling station. Going to prison for defending yourself? Could be I guess, especially if there was actually no weapon. But, I did not even pull and the situation was deescalated.

Usually I try to act a little more friendly and not so defensive, it helps to calm the situation.

I suspect this is spot on to this particular situation. Possibly if I just acknowledged him and said "hey, whats up?" he would not have become aggressive. But, it could have also been taken by someone else as an opening to get closer tp you. I am trying to learn how to tell the difference. I am sure I mis-read the situation this time on the fly.

Quote:
P.S. dump the alternative fuel vehicle. It could have been the underlying reason you could have gone to prison for a long time. Your choice.

Um....by that logic, you should dump any vehicle...since vehicle transitions are a prime time for assaults...and you should never go into a liquor store...or use an ATM...or even leave your house...

I had this same thought. As I have gone to the Pantages Theater or Staples center I have noticed very sketchy looking people hanging out. I guess we don't really need to go anywhere that might take us through or into bad areas though. And, by the way, the Staples center uses metal detectors.

Please. The underlying reason for this situation was that the OP failed to keep a supply of extra fuel for the vehicle or fuel it up soon enough to avoid visiting an unknown fueling station . THAT would have prevented his having to visit a place late at night in a bad area, where he was unfamiliar with the layout. Nothing about his vehicle makes him more or less prone to bad situations.

I will agree that being low on fuel limited my options. Especially since fuel stations are few and far between. I will need to be more careful with this. Another member PM'd me with the simple suggestion of filling up when I am down to 1/2 tank. This is a good idea, but can be hard since I have a 140 mile range.

have an emergency reserve in case of SHTF, etc...
ETA: If it's natural gas or some other sort of difficult to store fuel, then you just need to make a habit of fueling up more frequently.

My planned SHTF vehicle is the F350 with 75 gallons of Diesel. This particular car is CNG (compressed natural gas) and extra fuel is not feasible. Although home fueling is an expensive option.

I will never ever carry pepper spray. If I feel threatened, I shoot. Simple as that. God I love Texas.

I would really like to avoid shooting someone if possible while still staying healthy and conducting as normal a life as possible.

If one feels a need to use a less efficient mode of transportation, wait until the fueling points become available enough that a choice of safety is much more practical.

Less efficient in some respects and more efficient in others.

I suspect that this guy was giving off that vibe. He's a street person and known to be antisocial - a loner. He may very well have felt hostile toward you and projected that attitude without ever intending to criminally act on it.

My say is that you picked up on plenty of danger signals and responded accordingly. Your forbearance is a testament to your maturity of judgment. You felt threatened and continued to size up the situation until you were certain how you were going to act and thus ensured your safety.

As for not going to shady places... Sound advice. I try not to go anywhere with a gun that I wouldn't go without one. But hey... Life happens. That is why you take your precautions, practice, and maintain your situational awareness. Everyone made it home that night. Nobody was hurt or arrested. Win/win situation. Plus you got the added bonus of a little street education.

Thanks for that.

I will also share some insight from a member that PM'd me. I have asked for his permission to post it, but have not heard back from him. So I won't share his user ID. Again, I have posted this to help me as well as others to learn from a situation. This strikes me as an interesting observation. This is his comment and my response. I added the bold emphasis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxxxxxx
That was a good post. A lot of guys post lame or exaggerated sitautions, but you reacted properly.

Quote:
I have never run with a tough crowd but, I really believe he was using street methods of aggression and intimidation with me from the moment I got out of my car and he headed towards me. I believe challenging him caused him to become more aggressive instead of less.

See this cuts both ways. I have had experiences with inner city types, and some sense weakness and get aggressive.... but some react to aggressive with aggression. I think you did the right thing.

This guy (who was an employee) had no sense of professionalism- he could have dressed better, and at very least not stormed at you head on- but walked up slower, acknowledged you politely- basically given you some respect. Inner city trash have no respect for themselves so why would they give to anyone else?

Another classic trait of inner city thugs is the question thing. A question is power. In their culture you never answer a question. You simply keep asking questions at your rival- which is why this ******* kept asking questions back at you.
I had an inner city thug call my land-line at 3 Am one night (waking my wife and me up). He called like three times in a row and was mumbling then hanging up- I finally traced the number and called back and simply said "You seem to have the wrong number. Why do you keep calling me?" His response? "Why are you calling me?" Literally this idiot repeated every question I asked him (like the bum did you ran into).

Overall you did well. Sounds like the type of gas station you want to avoid though.

Thanks for the response.

I suspected (in my gut, if you will) that this may be the case.

He is a county worker, and maybe an inner-city type. I work with union people that have about the same lack of professionalism. I was guessing the questions back at me were a dominance thing. I guess answering a question would show service to another, or sub-servience.

In my experience, showing weakness is always the more dangerous position. Predators don't show mercy.

One difference in this post and others I see are this really happened, to the best of my ability to describe it anyway. A lot of scenarios on the board seem to be hypothetical.

Again, thanks for all the thoughts. It is not my intention to start a flame war. Only to create thought and improve my (our) uderstanding of behavior to help avoid these types of confrontations.

Stay safe

 

[Sir Aardvark]

Um, if he's within 21 feet, you can get stabbed before you draw.....now you want people to waste time with pepper spray, then try to draw from TEN FEET?!?!?!? Right...

This is why you have two (2) hands... one to hold the pepper spray, and the other one ready to draw your firearm.
If the guy is CHARGING you, I don't think anybody would having any problem in skipping the pepper spray and responding with the appropriate level of force.
The scenario described in this thread was of someone not following your demands of keeping his distance while you are unsure of his intentions - this is a PERFECT example of why one should carry pepper spray - it is a non-lethal way of telling the person that you are serious about your demands .

And lots of people have good reasons not to carry pepper spray: Asthma, EIA (exercise induced Asthma), TB, Chronic Bronchitis, Emphysema, or any moderate to serious lung problem...or a sever allergy to capsicum (some people do die from pepper spray) are all good examples.

This constitutes such a ridiculously small part of the population who actually take their safety seriously (not sheeple, but people who are aware that bad people exist and take measures accordingly) that I'm amazed that you even bring it up.
I myself have asthma, and I still carry pepper spray. It is better for me to NOT have to kill someone than it is to suffer any imagined or supposed deleterious effects of the "evil" pepper spray.

I will never ever carry pepper spray. If I feel threatened, I shoot. Simple as that. God I love Texas.

Does this mean that you would have shot and killed the gentleman described in this thread?
If true, now I understand why lots of people do not want others to have CCW's - they're afraid that people who are unable to process information in a rational and reasonable manner are going to kill someone for no good reason other than the fact that "he deserved to get shot, so I shot him!"

But, it does add one more thing to the belt, both as a tool and as a burden.

Check out the Mace brand "Pocket Model" - it measures 3 1/4" by 1 1/4" and will easily fit in your shirt pocket. It provides 5 seconds of spray and is tiny enough so that you won't even notice that it is there.
I carry one of these when I also have my CCW firearm on me; it is not designed for riot control, but for me, it is more than adequate to supplement my firearm as a necessary tool to ensure my safety.
It is also good for spraying snappy little dogs who are trying to bite you instead of shooting them or stomping on them with your boots.

Again, there is NO reason (other than an anaphylactoid allergic reaction to capsicum) why someone with a CCW should not carry pepper spray.

 

[chieftain]

about that "sixth sense," the ability to pick up on... things.

Is that admissible in court for your defense?

Quote:
dump the alternative fuel vehicle. It could have been the underlying reason you could have gone to prison for a long time. Your choice.

Could be an option. Although I have driven the car for 3 years and this is really the first issue I have had at a filling station. Going to prison for defending yourself? Could be I guess, especially if there was actually no weapon. But, I did not even pull and the situation was deescalated

If that guy had reached for his cell phone, according to you , you would have drawn and shot. Yea, you would have gone to prison. Not for defending yourself, but for shooting an employee, who had every right to be there, who acted in your opinion an “odd” or threatening manner. Just how are you going to describe to a jury how an employee, reaching for a cell phone is threatening. Maybe he was working forced overtime, and felt like an argument.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
P.S. dump the alternative fuel vehicle. It could have been the underlying reason you could have gone to prison for a long time. Your choice.
Um....by that logic, you should dump any vehicle...since vehicle transitions are a prime time for assaults...and you should never go into a liquor store...or use an ATM...or even leave your house...

I had this same thought. As I have gone to the Pantages Theater or Staples center I have noticed very sketchy looking people hanging out. I guess we don't really need to go anywhere that might take us through or into bad areas though. And, by the way, the Staples center uses metal detectors.

According to your description, this particular vehicle may require you to go to less than safe/good places to refuel more often than other vehicles. It is a matter of degree.

As to the Pantages Theater or Staples center, these places also disarm you. Make your own decisions. Not a valid comparison. Each of us must decide the amount of risk we voluntarily will take on.

Darwin helps pick out those of us who are brilliant and those of us that are not so brilliant. It will not matter what your counter argument is, Sir Darwin will decide and his choice is final. The good news is most often we make the right decisions. The bad news is we only have to be wrong once.

Quote:
If one feels a need to use a less efficient mode of transportation, wait until the fueling points become available enough that a choice of safety is much more practical.

Less efficient in some respects and more efficient in others.

Please explain? Efficient is efficient as my economics professors would say. I obviously need to be educated.

This is why you have two (2) hands... one to hold the pepper spray, and the other one ready to draw your firearm.
If the guy is CHARGING you, I don't think anybody would having any problem in skipping the pepper spray and responding with the appropriate level of force.

Most, by no means all, but most folks carrying concealed will need two hands to cleanly draw. And then most folks don’t practice with strong hand shooting, of either their pepper spray or their firearm. Now if the wind is blowing the wrong way, we have our hero blinded by his own pepper spray, hopefully the bogey is neutralized, and waving a firearm around.

Worst case, our hero is blinded and neutralized by his own chemical, and the bogey is having his way with us. Or almost as bad, he is "drawing" his cell phone calling 911 about the guy that just attacked him with a Chemical agent and is waving a gun around.

NO! Pick your weapon, pepper spray, or firearm, and stick to it. I have worked in Jails and Prisons, just for a very common example, the last “use of force” I was involved in, the initiating officer was over come by the pepper spray in the cell, when he was trying to cuff the inmate. It was a mess, I jumped in and helped him. In the mean time the other folks sent up the balloon and the officer and I stumbled out of the cell, as the cavalry got there. Neither he nor I were in any shape except to choke, cough, and “cry”.

I have seen the problems of chemical weapons up close. I choose a firearm.

The problem is your thinking your in danger is not enough to shoot or spray. There has to be a means, intent and capability or displayed actions such as already shot someone else. Your spidy or sixth sense will not float. Particularly in court. Intent can be argued in court but your "sense" ain't going to fly. It can get more involved, but the fundamentals are not to complicated. Sense is not admissible, for defense, Sense is what we do to become alert to a potential problem. Running away and avoidance is always a good answer, not always possible or practical, but always a good answer.

Oh yea, someone mentioned using Pepper spray on animals. Pepper spray made for humans, doesn't work on animals. They do make a separate spray for animals though. Ask your mail man, they are usually aware of the sprays that are effective on animals.

Learning (training) and quality practice with the weapons you have chosen to defend yourself and loved ones with. assumptions or misconceptions do not and will not impress Sir Darwin. Sir Darwin ain't interested in what you think, he only deals with real life. Not what happens on Televison or in the Movies, or your imagination. This ability to believe one is "smarter" than folks that do this sort of thing for a living, is not a virtue. The measure of an intelligent man is his ability to admit to himself what he doesn't know, and as such is just guessing.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Sir Aardvark]

Most, by no means all, but most folks carrying concealed will need two hands to cleanly draw.

I can't figure this one out. I carry my firearm IWB at 4:00 on my right hip. I use my right hand, and only my right hand, to draw it from my holster. It is actually pretty difficult to use my left hand in drawing my weapon - I know because I have practiced doing it. I do not see where you are coming from by saying that it takes most people 2 hands to draw a weapon.
How is it that you carry your weapon so that it takes 2 hands to draw it?

And then most folks don’t practice with strong hand shooting,

Who said anything about strong hand shooting?
If you: 1) draw your weapon with your right hand; 2) drop the pepper spray that is in your left hand; 3) use both of your hands to shoot - then this isn't even an issue. But anyways, those who have a CCW should nevertheless practice weak hand draws and strong hand shooting.

Now if the wind is blowing the wrong way, we have our hero blinded by his own pepper spray...Worst case, our hero is blinded and neutralized by his own chemical

This is a bit far-fetched to think that someone is going to spray pepper spray into the wind and blind himself. Anybody with an ounce of brains is going to know not to do this, and this is quite frankly a really stupid reason to come up with for not carrying pepper spray.
How many "now if's" and "worst case's" can you come up with for this scenario? ...thousands?

Oh yea, someone mentioned using Pepper spray on animals. Pepper spray made for humans, doesn't work on animals.

Yes... it does work on animals. You were misinformed.

Again, there is no reason why someone with a CCW should not carry pepper spray.

 

[chieftain]

Quote:
Most, by no means all, but most folks carrying concealed will need two hands to cleanly draw.

I can't figure this one out. I carry my firearm IWB at 4:00 on my right hip. I use my right hand, and only my right hand, to draw it from my holster. It is actually pretty difficult to use my left hand in drawing my weapon - I know because I have practiced doing it. I do not see where you are coming from by saying that it takes most people 2 hands to draw a weapon.
How is it that you carry your weapon so that it takes 2 hands to draw it?

You are absolutely right, I don’t draw with my left hand either. As you are choosing to be a contrarian, by your actions. Most of us must lift our shirt or outer garment, originally called the Hackathorn rip. But I am sure you have some answer for that to. Also note my term “MOST FOLKS” it means not all. That would include you too.

Sorry to have fed your need to stir up things.

Quote:
And then most folks don’t practice with strong hand shooting,

Who said anything about strong hand shooting?
If you: 1) draw your weapon with your right hand; 2) drop the pepper spray that is in your left hand; 3) use both of your hands to shoot - then this isn't even an issue. But anyways, those who have a CCW should nevertheless practice weak hand draws and strong hand shooting.

Then you are TRANSITIONING and not using both hands as the poster stated. Sheesh, We are talking about extra time lost in any close encounter, close enough to use OC spray, will not leave you much time. Of course I am sure you can, just the rest of us regular folks are slow. I am sure you have accomplished this in a bunch of Fire fights.

Quote:
Now if the wind is blowing the wrong way, we have our hero blinded by his own pepper spray...Worst case, our hero is blinded and neutralized by his own chemical

This is a bit far-fetched to think that someone is going to spray pepper spray into the wind and blind himself. Anybody with an ounce of brains is going to know not to do this, and this is quite frankly a really stupid reason to come up with for not carrying pepper spray.
How many "now if's" and "worst case's" can you come up with for this scenario? ...thousands?

Let see, determine if the bogey is a Bad Guy, decide the wind is blowing in the right direction, decide which weapon to use. Pray to God if I choose Chemical, that it works, and I didn’t misread the wind. If it doesn’t, one guy wants me to draw both at the same time, and this guy wants you to transition IF THE WIND IS IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION and the OC spray doesn’t work.

Oh yea, if you also train to get off the SPOT, and move while counter attacking, you could move yourself into your own spray, or have to consider that in your defensive movement.
Just how many fire fights have you been in? Sheesh.

Obviously you have vastly more experience in this than I do.

Quote:
Oh yea, someone mentioned using Pepper spray on animals. Pepper spray made for humans, doesn't work on animals.

Yes... it does work on animals. You were misinformed.

Again, there is no reason why someone with a CCW should not carry pepper spray.

I will let the Postal Carriers union know. Most LEO’s and folks who live with OC, Know better.

As to carrying OC spray. Understand it’s very limiting limitations. I rely on it Only if I can’t carry a fire arm. Some folks will tell you to choose a weapon without a Safety, why, so you don’t forget to release it in an actual firefight. Or don’t get a traditional DA/SA handgun so that you don’t have to transition your trigger pull. How about don’t forget to choose the right weapon for a fight for your life. You get to choose.

Book learning doesn’t work that great in the real world. Think about your own field of endeavor. Most fields I am aware of after a good classical school learning, the rookie has to learn how the real world works.

And never forget Sir Darwin will judge every fight you are in. Use OC spray, never, never forget it’s limitations, and your own. The Problem with Sir Darwin, if he is right only once out of a hundred, I will not be there to know it.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[plexreticle]

Next time you have to get fuel in a **** neighbor take a buddy.

 

[revjen45]

As I was leaving the beer emporium recently, a "scuzzy" looking guy walking back and forth in front of the store caught my attention. It occurred to me that while starting my bike I was vulnerable, so I pushed it farther out into the parking lot and got my S&W folder in my hand (no gun- coming home from work). I kept my eye on him as I started the bike and pulled out. He was likely just a "harmless" person associated with the local homeless center, but his behavior put me in condition orange right away. You had good reason to take alarm, but didn't draw so no harm, no foul.

 

[David904]

chieftain,

I've no idea how that would stand up in court. I guess if the attorneys worded it in an airy fairy kind of way instead of in the context of our raw biological design, I suspect that the judge/jury might look somewhat askance.

I'm sure that you've followed or ignored your gut on more than a few occasions - and usually your gut was correct.

I agree with you on opting for a gun rather than chemical weapons. Sprays are too capricious.

 

[ZeSpectre]

By default (i.e. everyone walked away unharmed) it worked out okay.

So my only criticism here is that you shouldn't have entered the situation in the first place. If you drove in and saw a person who set your nerves on alert mode then it was time to drive on, or stay in your car, or pull away and assess the situation from a safe distance.

 

[Erik]

I don't advocate challenging folks out to fifty feet. It may just invite as much trouble as ward it off. Which appears to be the case.

As to when and where you conducted your business, the "just don't go there crowd" is partially correct, but it isn't always practical. I say "partially," because crime happens every where, and we should think of it that way to avoid being lulled into complacency.

For example, I've filled up in many a seedy part of town, but faced my only gas station violent encounter in a wealthy, so-called "safe," suburban setting.