The closest I have come....

[Larryect]

The closest I have come to pulling my CCW in about 7 years of carrying.

I have mixed feelings about posting this. But maybe those more experienced can help me and others learn from this...

I drive an alternative fuel vehicle. The thing about alternative fuels is that the stations are not very populated and sometimes in industrial or otherwise less desirable areas. And, there are not very many of them.

A couple of nights ago the station I normally go to was shut down. It was about 8:30 pm and I needed gas for the next day. I drive about 20 miles to work and even though I MAY have had enough gas to get to a station near work, I decided to get gas that evening at the next closest station which is 10 miles in the opposite direction from work. I had never been to the station but it was in my GPS and my local station had directed people to it in the past. So I was somewhat confident that I could find it. So, off I go.

I find the station. Turns out it is fairly close to a known, very bad area of town. The station is in a bit from the street at the city yards. I pull in and there is one other car just leaving. It is the only other car I see. I drove through the islands once checking out where the pumps are how to pay, etc. I figure it out and discovered I had pulled up too far. No big deal, I just circle around and pull back in and stop at the pump.

But, this time when pulling up to the pump I notice a man (looks like he is dressed in dirty clothes, dark pants, jacket, gloves and knit cap) doing something at the end of the next island pulling on some hose from overhead and then doing something reaching below ground and doing something, pulling a hose over to a large potted tree. Now, I have been driving my car and not working outside. But I don't consider it cold. On the other hand, if you are out side for long periods a light jacket may be nice. It was maybe 70 degrees or so.

I would guess he is maybe 100 ft away. I don't know where he came from. It's about 8:45 pm. My thought is he may be a homeless guy. Some of them around here do some odd things - feed cats, whatever. Or he may have legitimate business. I watch just long enough to figure it's alright if he just keeps doing whatever he is doing.


Well, I shut off my car, open the door and get out. As soon as I get out he turns and heads directly towards me. I hesitate to see if he veers off. He doesn't. Now he is maybe 50 ft. and walking quickly while looking at me. So I believe I rather forcefully asked "Can I help you with something?"

Well instead of stopping, slowing or saying what he wanted, he just as forcefully replied "Can I help YOU with something?" - still walking. He is closing distance quickly and now maybe he is 25 - 30 ft. So, I tell him "YOU NEED TO STOP!!

Well, instead of stopping, he doesn't even slow down, he says "what do I need to stop?" Again I tell him to stop...

Well, he doesn't stop until he is even with me stepped up onto the island and faces off with me. I am still between the car door and the car. The door is somewhat between us.

It gets a bit less clear here. Not exact words but he asks (forcefully) "What do you want, is there a problem?" And I say something like "no I don't have a problem, are we alright?" And he asks "Are YOU alright?" - none of this was if it was over coffee you understand. We are pretty much yelling at each other.

I am watching his hands (gloves on) as closely as I can while going back and forth with him verbally. Then for some reason his jacket swung open towards his left side and I glimpsed something shiny silver in his waistband at his 3 o’clock. My mind screamed, this guy has a gun.

I don't always have my CCW on my waist, but I did this night and that was exactly the right place for it. And, I was glad it was my .45. My strong side was angled away from him. I reached back and gripped my gun underneath my tee-shirt. He didn't know what I had, but he knew I had something. I was still watching his hands and he had not moved towards his waistband or towards me, so I did not draw.

He asked - "what are you doing?" I said - "I just want to get some gas." and indicated the pump he was standing next to. He tells me "well I just want to go get the hose and water the plant at the end of the island just like he was doing with the other plant." I say okay, why don't you go do that? He says okay. He moves away. I keep an eye on him; as I go use the card reader, get gas, etc.

We did pass each other again relatively close and I said I was sorry for any mix up and I think he grunted. I did see he had a silver cell phone on his left side, but I still think it was forward of whatever else I saw on his waistband.


Now, I will tell you he happens to be black, and I happen to be white. I have thought about this a lot and I don't really think it would have made a difference if he was white or any other race. My decisions were made because of the situations involved. I am sure I would have had the same concerns no matter the race of the individual.

I bring this up, because in diversity training I have taken I have learned that people with cultural roots form different parts of the world tend to deal with conflict differently. For example people from certain European countries try to avoid conflict and will appease or otherwise try to smooth things over. While people from other areas, African cultural roots for example tend to meet conflict head-on and try to bring it into the open so it can be hashed out if you will.

I am wondering if cultural differences may have contributed to this incident.

I was surprised at that this guy would not stop, slow or divert his direction. How, instead of answering, he through my questions back at me. How quickly he got close to me without me having real reason to draw. And, how quickly I did not feel it was an option to get back in my car - I have bad knees and can't sit and turn real quickly. I was sure he would divert when challenged.

I probably should have observed longer before getting out of my car. But I really needed gas and it looked like he was staying busy doing whatever it was he was doing.

I have never run with a tough crowd but, I really believe he was using street methods of aggression and intimidation with me from the moment I got out of my car and he headed towards me. I believe challenging him caused him to become more aggressive instead of less.

Any input -- without tearing me up too bad?

I will check back later, and can add some more about why he was there.

 

[theavocado]

Ya, Ive got a question.....

How did you get your CCP in Ca?

As far as the situation goes....alls well that ends well, and thats what CCP's in responsible hands are for, right?

 

[Larryect]

Ya, Ive got a question.....

How did you get your CCP in Ca?

Long story. I gues I live in a moderatly CCW friendly county. My son got cross ways of some hoodlums with gang ties. Said hoodlums shot a neighboor in the leg while asking for my son. Things escalated a few weeks later and one hoodlum ended up dead.

I wasn't home either time, but threats were made against all of us. Hoodlums were never caught. When interviewed by the police they are smart enough to know what not to say.

Since then, I think the local authorities consider my reason to be getting weak. But, I think they have allowed me to keep it because I got a Real Esate license.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i tend to give a very critical read os situations like this and i think you did ok . the fact that you question your reactions as being motivated by cultural differences speaks well for ya and tends to make me think they were less an issue then you do. its possible the guy might be what we non pc types call a few fries short of a happy meal and have an odd way of dealing with situations that struck you the wrong way. and i thank you for your candor given me something to think about and thats always a good thing

 

[Larryect]

Well, thanks for the kindness.

I will add at this point: The next morning I called the county (I said city yard earlier, but it was county) and asked if they had a guy that was supposed to be there at that time of night. I ended up talking to a supervisor. I told the supervisor that I had had a bit of an issue with him - and he said "words?"

I said - sort of. The supervisor confirmed he was supposed to be there doing cleanup, watering, (if you can believe this) helping people. I described him, the supervisor says yep sounds like Greg. I said - not to friendly of a guy. Supervisor says - no he is kind of a loaner.

I suggested doing their work during the day when customers are less likely to be intimidated. He said they just couldn't do that. He asked if he didn't have a county shirt on. I couldn't tell because of the jacket.

I don't know if this was the right decision. But, I refrained from telling him how close his employee came to getting shot. I had decided that one move towards the waist band or me would be all it was going to take.

 

[Flak_Jakett]

I understand the reason you had your hackles up. I think mine would be up also. As I was reading the story I thought, maybe the guy works there, or maybe he has mental issues. Maybe both. I think you had doubts to weather your life was in danger, or maybe this guy was confused about proper social ettiquette. I think you handled this right. All's well that ends well right?

One thing though, perhaps as he is approaching you could have put your car between him and you. At that point you wouldn't have been able to drive off to escape in time. You're view of what kind of weapon he had might be obscured too, but in these cases when someone is moving into your danger zone distance is your friend. And if he starts chasing you around your car you know that things aren't kosher. You then will have time to draw and aim as well. Just a thought for next time.

 

[Larryect]

Yes, I think I observed him enough to believe he seemed to have business there. So I thought he would stay busy doing whatever he was doing. What threw me off was the way he headed straight at me and then continue as I challeged him. I never saw a weapon until he got close and then I thought I saw something on his belt. Still not sure if it was anything other then his phone. I could see his hands as he came towards me, so I had no indication of weapon until then.

I like the idea of moving around the car. I guess it could look pretty funny, trying to move around it while not turning your back though. But, better to look funny and stay safer. Thanks.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

It very well could have been a weapon. If I worked at a filling station out in the middle of an industrial park I know I would be armed.

 

[whited]

.

Sounds fine to me. You never know what a sick unstable irate random
freak will do. Don't over analyze or think too much about it. Some people
might say that you could have (should have) pulled it out and that you
let him get too close to you, but I think you made a good choice and were
in reasonable control of things.

 

[KelVarnson]

Someone screwy enough to come charging at you like that is more than likely overly-sensitive to anyone paying any attention to him at all. In other words, he probably picked up on the fact that you were checking him out when you rolled in, and saw that (in his own miind) as provocation. Even a quick glance is enough to set some people off.

Since there seems to be no shortage of nutjobs like that, I have learned to be very subtle when it comes to SA (not saying you weren't). I hate to armchair quarterback, but I might have not made eye contact or verbal contact with him as he approached. Just keep pumping the gas, looking at the pump, watching him with peripheral vision, with my other hand in my pocket on my 638.

If the guy gets close and still says something hostile, I would act as if I weren't paying attention to him and he was distracting me from the pump. "I'm sorry, what did you say?" That's my idea of de-escalation.

 

[Larryect]

Interesting points. I have also had the thought of something similar. He knew he belonged there (but I didn't). So he may have thought I was off base challenging him, because after all, he belonged there.

However, I had no indication at all he even noticed me until I got out of my car. Then he almost imediatly headed towards me. I had not started pumping gas yet and in fact needed to move towards him to use the card reader. Of course this would have allowed me to either move around the car away from him or maybe get back in the car if done quickly enough. Again, I was completly surprised by his actions.

I do think he is probably one of those people a bit short of a happy meal. We have a few of those at work as well. And sometimes they just don't really make sense.

I would be concerned about allowing any one in a similar situation approach without at least acknowledgement. And I suspect there are those that could be upset or emboldened by that as well.

See, in my world, if I were going about my business and someone asked me if they could help me. I would probably answer with - no, I'm just going to water that other plant. I may have (and most likely did) ask in a challenging manner though because of his body language, walking angle directly towards me, and direct (and I felt challenging) eye contact.

But that may not be his world - that's why I brought up the culture issue.

Interesting things to think about. And that is why I posted this.

 

[TallPine]

Supervisor says - no he is kind of a loaner.

Maybe you should have asked him for money ...?

 

[lloydkristmas]

^^^Haha thats what we do around here. College town, tons of homeless....we've just learned to ask them for money as they approach, before they get a chance to ask us. Always throws 'em off.

Only one time did any of them actually make me nervous though. I was on the patio of a restaurant eating and this homeless came up and just wouldnt leave us alone. He started by asking me if I was racist, and when I said no, he asked for money. I told him I couldnt help him, and he turned to my girlfriend and asked her. I told him again that we had nothing to give to him, and he said something about a nice dinner but you cant give a black man money blah blah typical stuff. He tried to intimidate me by telling me that he served time in prison for killing his wife. At this point I was freaked out and other people started to notice the guy too. Another guy from a different table walked over and said "Hey get the hell out of here, you dont belong here" and the guy stammered and walked off. It was pretty funny. Same guy ended up getting creamed by a train about 2 weeks later. I do some work with the local PD and Crime Scene guys, and I saw the photos. Wasn't pretty, but at least he wont be bothering any more innocents.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

I didn't see pepper spray mentioned anywhere yet in this thread.

I do not see how someone can have a CCW and not carry pepper spray.

I would rather pepper spray someone to show them that I serious about what I'm telling them to do than to have to shoot them.

Based upon your description of events you did not have any non-lethal alternatives to deadly force other than hand-to-hand - please keep in mind "escalation of force"

Pepper spray is very valuable in escalation of force... it is non-lethal, it has a range of about 10 feet, and the person you spray with it can pretty much tell that you are serious in your demands for them to keep their distance.

If a person is approaching you despite your demands that they keep their distance, hose them down with pepper spray, if they still approach you after you spray them, chances are that they mean to do you harm - then pull your sidearm.

Carrying a firearm is a great responsibility and I don't see why people would not have at hand whatever tools are available, like pepper spray, in order to keep a situation from escalating to the point where someone might get shot and killed.

 

[Larryect]

Thanks for bringing up the point.

Your right. I did not have pepper spray. I have thought about it, but so far I have not carried it. I know there are two different thoughts on the subject. And after this event I thought aboiut it some more, and may get some.

In this instance, I'm not sure I had reason to pepper spray him either. After all he was just walking towards me - right?

Years ago, I carried CS spray. My understanding was, at the time, to do so with out a license or using it without good reason was a felony. Maybe those laws have changed (I know you don't need a license for pepper spray). As you know, California laws are really stupid. You know - things like batons, nunchucks etc. or it's a felony.

One of my CCW instructors described a scenario with us where he had drawn on someone with no weapon displayed. In discussion he said one of his biggest fears is that one of his CCW students would wait too long before drawing. I wonder if after spraying someone and it didn't work, or worse yet you managed to spray yourself if you would still be able to defend yourself. I have heard that in some circles these type of people pratice resisting the effects of being sprayed.

If you carried spray and couldn't use it and instead went directly for deadly force, what would the trial sound like: Your Honor, the defendant COULD HAVE used lesser force but CHOSE not to. He shot my client instead.....

It might be interesting to do a poll and see how many people agree that spray should be carried.

 

[03Shadowbob]

It never ceases to amaze me when I read these types of posts. You didn't need to stop for gas but you did even though it was an area of town you wouldn't normally go to. You knew it was a bad area but you stopped anyways. You are still in your car when you see a "shady" character not far from you yet you turn off your car and get out. The guy comes directly to you and you tell him to stop right there and that is all you do.
IMO, instead of saying you are very naive and lucky you didn't become a victim, I will just tell you what my dad told me once...You play with fire, you will get burned. Use your head and spidey sense and don't think you can just stop anywhere you want because you have a gun.

 

[chieftain]

How close would you have to be to use most civilian based Pepper Spray device? How close would you let the Bogey get before spraying them.

Anyway, in most cases, transitioning from Spray to your firearm would take how long?

Now the guy is how close? How long did it take for you to figure out your pepper spray didn't work? How much closer did the Bogey get?

I cary spray. I don't trust it but I carry it. I use it when I feel there may be threat I can not identify. I would lay down spray, as I withdraw. That is about the only time I would use it. It could near kill me if I ever got a whiff of it.

Go figure.

Fred

P.S. dump the alternative fuel vehicle. It could have been the underlying reason you could have gone to prison for a long time. Your choice.

Go figure.

F

 

[elkhuntingfool]

It never ceases to amaze me when I read these types of posts. You didn't need to stop for gas but you did even though it was an area of town you wouldn't normally go to. You knew it was a bad area but you stopped anyways. You are still in your car when you see a "shady" character not far from you yet you turn off your car and get out.

Situational awareness!!!!!!!!

 

[MarshallDodge]

You did OK. I have been in situations like this although it was in broad daylight. Usually I try to act a little more friendly and not so defensive, it helps to calm the situation.

 

[03Shadowbob]

Situational awareness!!!!!!!!

yep. I don't feel sorry for people who knowingly put themselves in bad situations.

 

[TallPine]

I do not see how someone can have a CCW and not carry pepper spray.

Being asthmatic

 

[Clipper]

There's no way I'm gonna carry pepper spray...If things develop too fast to use it, I guarantee the prosecutor is gonna crucify you for not using it first, since we all know lawyers are so good at hindsight. Actually, I think pepper spray is a first-class ticket to trouble when carrying. Besides, I carry enough junk already to need a belt and suspenders...

 

[fireflyfather]

Pepper spray is very valuable in escalation of force... it is non-lethal, it has a range of about 10 feet, and the person you spray with it can pretty much tell that you are serious in your demands for them to keep their distance.

Um, if he's within 21 feet, you can get stabbed before you draw.....now you want people to waste time with pepper spray, then try to draw from TEN FEET?!?!?!? Right...............And lots of people have good reasons not to carry pepper spray: Asthma, EIA (exercise induced Asthma), TB, Chronic Bronchitis, Emphysema, or any moderate to serious lung problem...or a sever allergy to capsicum (some people do die from pepper spray) are all good examples.

P.S. dump the alternative fuel vehicle. It could have been the underlying reason you could have gone to prison for a long time. Your choice.

Um....by that logic, you should dump any vehicle...since vehicle transitions are a prime time for assaults...and you should never go into a liquor store...or use an ATM...or even leave your house...

Please. The underlying reason for this situation was that the OP failed to keep a supply of extra fuel for the vehicle or fuel it up soon enough to avoid visiting an unknown fueling station . THAT would have prevented his having to visit a place late at night in a bad area, where he was unfamiliar with the layout. Nothing about his vehicle makes him more or less prone to bad situations.

Having said that, a jerry can or two of extra fuel for this kind of situation would be a good investment. If the longevity of stored fuel is an issue, then when you go to fuel up, pour the can into the tank and fill the can...as often as needed to keep the supply fresh. Simple, easy, and lets you use your preferred fuel stop and/or have an emergency reserve in case of SHTF, etc...

ETA: If it's natural gas or some other sort of difficult to store fuel, then you just need to make a habit of fueling up more frequently.

 

[skidooman]

+1 for pepper spray. If you can stop a threat with as little means possible, isnt that best? I would much rather spray some hobo and the cops take him to jail than put holes in him. Sometimes you have to stop in shady places, regardless of reason, I'm not going to let some shady looking guy watering plants across the parking lot stop me from putting fuel in my truck.

 

[Eyesac]

Erroneously pulling OC or Pistol?

I think you did fine, all is well that ends well. That said, I also think this is a perfect example of where some OC would have come in handy. I've never pulled either on anyone, but I personally would feel a lot better erroneously (no weapon in his hand) pulling OC than a firearm.