Dudedog October (in memory of Jell-Dog) PIF journey

[vaalpens]

Sunday was a nice day to load up a few, so I decided on the loads for the RMR .45 230gr PRN bullets. I decided to go with the HP-38 and Sport Pistol loads to see how they match up velocity wise, and obviously accuracy. The loads are:

RMR .45 230gr PRN bullets, COL 1.275", HP-38, 4.7gr, 4.8gr, 4.9gr, 5.0gr and 5.1gr.
RMR .45 230gr PRN bullets, COL 1.275", Sport Pistol, 4.7gr, 4.8gr, 4.9gr, 5.0gr and 5.1gr.

 

[vaalpens]

Do you need to create dummy rounds and test them in your magazines? Yes you do.

Today I went out to test some of the loads I created with the bullets and brass I received from Dudedog. Included in the scheduled test were the loads using the RMR .45 230gr PRN bullet. To my surprise today, I could not load more than one round into my P220 magazine with the loads loaded to a COL of 1.275".

The mistake I made was to only create one dummy round to do the plunk, cycle and setback test. The P220 magazine is very finicky with SWC bullets, but it seems it is also finicky with loads loaded to the maximum COL. The reason I only created one dummy round was that these are plated bullets and I wanted to limit how many bullets I had to pull and also include in my load test. I normally create 3 dummy rounds, but in this case I thought I knew better. Big mistake.

I could not test the loads today, and will have to shorten the COL until I can load the P220 magazine with 8 rounds, and cycle them through the gun. This bullet is going to be tight since the ogive is just a sliver outside the mouth of the case at a COL of 1.275".

I did complete some other load tests and will post them once I have documented everything.

 

[Dudedog]

Bummer.
1911 mags must tolerate a little longer OAL.
I loaded mine to 1.274-1.275 as well and they were ok in the mags I have for my Citadel.
Hopefully just a little deeper will work.

Looking forward to your test results as always.

 

[vaalpens]

After I completed my load testing today I decided to do a bonus test at 25yards. It seems that at 25yards is really how you determine if a pistol load is accurate or not.

The reason why I am posting the results in this thread is because one of the bullets, the RMR 9mm 147gr plated target HP bullet, is a bullet I received from Dudedog about 12 months ago in a PIF. This was the last of the rounds I loaded and is one of my most accurate loads in 357sig. It is a pity that RMR does not sell this bullet anymore. The other load is the current RMR 9mm 124gr FMJFP bullet, which I load with Unique for a very accurate load. This was a 25yard shoot-off between these loads. Following are the results:

This is the RMR 124gr FMJFN bullet loaded in 357sig. It is now my 3rd best recorded grouping at 25yards.


This is the 147gr plated RMR target HP bullet I received from Dudedog. It is now my #1 recorded grouping at 25yards. This load groups well every time I test it. It is just a pity that this bullet is not available anymore.

 

[vaalpens]

The 40s&w loads with the LAX headstamp cases and Longshot was an eye opener for me. These loads were loaded with pulled 155gr FMJFP bullets, thus the best accuracy or good chrono numbers were not expected. What I did experience was very good accuracy for pulled bullets at very good velocities. These loads definitely had a nice kick to them since I was using Longshot, but min to max the recoil did not change that much. The chrono numbers were not great as expected. The results below can speak for themselves. All testing was done at 15yards using a rest and not-zeroed scope.

40SW, P229, 3.9"
Case: LAX
COL: 1.125"
ARPulled, 155gr, FMJRNFP, Longshot, 7.5gr, CCI500
Average: 1114
ES: 27
SD: 10.8
Force: 427
PF: 172
Velocities: 1128, 1121, 1115, 1101, 1107
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.17"
Test Date: 11/20/2018



40SW, P229, 3.9"
Case: LAX
COL: 1.125"
ARPulled, 155gr, FMJRNFP, Longshot, 7.6gr, CCI500
Average: 1136
ES: 52
SD: 18.6
Force: 444
PF: 176
Velocities: 1137, 1132, 1135, 1112, 1164
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.71"
Test Date: 11/20/2018



40SW, P229, 3.9"
Case: LAX
COL: 1.125"
ARPulled, 155gr, FMJRNFP, Longshot, 7.7gr, CCI500
Average: 1148
ES: 25
SD: 9.1
Force: 454
PF: 177
Velocities: 1134, 1152, 1159, 1148, 1147
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.55"
Test Date: 11/20/2018

40SW, P229, 3.9"
Case: LAX
COL: 1.125"
ARPulled, 155gr, FMJRNFP, Longshot, 7.8gr, CCI500
Average: 1154
ES: 14
SD: 6
Force: 458
PF: 178
Velocities: 1162, 1149, 1148, 1156, 1158
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.84"
Test Date: 11/20/2018



40SW, P229, 3.9"
Case: LAX
COL: 1.125"
ARPulled, 155gr, FMJRNFP, Longshot, 7.9gr, CCI500
Average: 1164
ES: 36
SD: 13.1
Force: 466
PF: 180
Velocities: 1146, 1167, 1182, 1159, 1167
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.68"
Test Date: 11/20/2018



40SW, P229, 3.9"
Case: LAX
COL: 1.125"
ARPulled, 155gr, FMJRNFP, Longshot, 8gr, CCI500
Average: 1184
ES: 18
SD: 7.5
Force: 482
PF: 183
Velocities: 1176, 1194, 1179, 1184, 1190
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.73"
Test Date: 11/20/2018

 

[vaalpens]

The RMR 9mm 147gr FMJFP bullet loads were also tested on Tuesday. These loads were basically done to test how well the FMJFP bullet performs against the RMR old plated 147gr bullet, and compare the results between the chamfered and expanded/crimped cases.

Based on the results I saw, I don't see any reason why I should change from my normal expand/crimp routine to a chamfer routine. It seems that the crimped rounds actually performed better than the chamfered rounds. Obviously I don't know why the crimped rounds performed better, but it could be that with the expansion die, the neck is actually shaped and belled. It could be that the chamfered cases could do better with a shaped but not belled process. Following is a quick summary of the data:
-Velocity: Average velocities were very similar
-ES/SD Numbers: The crimped loads had better numbers in 3 out of 5 loads. Crimped loads had one 20+ ES, with chamfered loads two 20+ ES. Close but better number from crimped rounds.
-Grouping: The crimped round loads had better groupings in 4 out of 5 loads, with two loads in the .5" bracket. The best the chamfered loads did was two results in the .7" bracket. Overall the crimped loads performed better in the accuracy category.

Following are the results. All loads tested at 15yards using a rest and a non-zeroed scope:



357sig, P229, 3.9"
Case: Speer
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, FMJFN, CFEpistol, 5.5gr, CCI500
Average: 970
ES: 11
SD: 5.5
Force: 307
PF: 142
Velocities: 966, 977, 976, 968, 966
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.55"
Test Date: 11/20/2018
Notes: Expanded/Crimped

357sig, P229, 3.9"
Case: Speer
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, FMJFN, CFEpistol, 5.5gr, CCI500
Average: 976
ES: 34
SD: 13.4
Force: 311
PF: 143
Velocities: 988, 978, 954, 985, 978
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.71"
Test Date: 11/20/2018
Notes: Chamfered



357sig, P229, 3.9"
Case: Speer
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, FMJFN, CFEpistol, 5.7gr, CCI500
Average: 1006
ES: 17
SD: 6.8
Force: 330
PF: 147
Velocities: 996, 1013, 1006, 1012, 1007
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.72"
Test Date: 11/20/2018
Notes: Expanded/Crimped

357sig, P229, 3.9"
Case: Speer
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, FMJFN, CFEpistol, 5.7gr, CCI500
Average: 1000
ES: 63
SD: 26.4
Force: 326
PF: 147
Velocities: 954, 1008, 1013, 1017, 1012
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.44"
Test Date: 11/20/2018
Notes: Chamfered



357sig, P229, 3.9"
Case: Speer
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, FMJFN, CFEpistol, 5.9gr, CCI500
Average: 1038
ES: 30
SD: 12.3
Force: 352
PF: 152
Velocities: 1033, 1046, 1031, 1056, 1026
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.04"
Test Date: 11/20/2018
Notes: Expanded/Crimped

357sig, P229, 3.9"
Case: Speer
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, FMJFN, CFEpistol, 5.9gr, CCI500
Average: 1043
ES: 18
SD: 7.6
Force: 355
PF: 153
Velocities: 1048, 1031, 1047, 1049, 1040
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.4"
Test Date: 11/20/2018
Notes: Chamfered



357sig, P229, 3.9"
Case: Speer
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, FMJFN, CFEpistol, 6gr, CCI500
Average: 1064
ES: 19
SD: 7.4
Force: 369
PF: 156
Velocities: 1065, 1057, 1059, 1076, 1064
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.5"
Test Date: 11/20/2018
Notes: Expanded/Crimped

357sig, P229, 3.9"
Case: Speer
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, FMJFN, CFEpistol, 6gr, CCI500
Average: 1063
ES: 11
SD: 4.8
Force: 369
PF: 156
Velocities: 1069, 1064, 1058, 1059, 1067
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.78"
Test Date: 11/20/2018
Notes: Chamfered



357sig, P229, 3.9"
Case: Speer
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, FMJFN, CFEpistol, 6.1gr, CCI500
Average: 1071
ES: 12
SD: 4.8
Force: 374
PF: 157
Velocities: 1073, 1069, 1065, 1075, 1077
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.39"
Test Date: 11/20/2018
Notes: Expanded/Crimped

357sig, P229, 3.9"
Case: Speer
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, FMJFN, CFEpistol, 6.1gr, CCI500
Average: 1071
ES: 13
SD: 5
Force: 374
PF: 157
Velocities: 1072, 1063, 1071, 1074, 1076
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.13"
Test Date: 11/20/2018
Notes: Chamfered

 

[vaalpens]

Bummer.
1911 mags must tolerate a little longer OAL.
I loaded mine to 1.274-1.275 as well and they were ok in the mags I have for my Citadel.
Hopefully just a little deeper will work.

Looking forward to your test results as always.

Dudedog, not to worry. This is all on me and I should have done my due diligence.

I slowly decreased the COL today and at some time I was able to load 3, but not 5 rounds into the magazine. Just for grins, I decided to try loading them with the uplula magazine loader, and I was able to load all of them. When loading by hand the nose of the round is pushed down and that is where it runs into trouble.

At the end I settled on a COL of 1.2615" and was able to load all of them by hand. It seems the ogive is still outside the mouth, so I should be good to go when I get time some range time again. Hopefully next time I will be able to collect some test data.

 

[Dudedog]

Glad you got them to fit.
New bullet to me so when I eye balled them, 1.275 looked good and plunked, and fed, so when I doubled checked it for you I didn't even think about that being right at
Lymans MAX listed OAL of 1.275.
Surprising sometimes what .01" difference can make.

 

[Dudedog]

Just to show you that good deeds are rewarded (and there is a Santa) I found a MFRB full of goodies in my mailbox today.


Thank you vaalpens for the great PIF!
Now I just need to figure out what I am going to load with the bullets.
Sport Pistol and HP38 for sure with the .45s may try some of new to me W244 with them as well.
Still thinking about the .357/.38 bullets.

Looks like those pulled 155s worked well for you in .40.
Does Longshot seem louder than other powders to you or is it just me?

 

[Blue68f100]

There's a reason it's nickname is LoudShot......

 

[vaalpens]

Thank you vaalpens for the great PIF!
Now I just need to figure out what I am going to load with the bullets.
Sport Pistol and HP38 for sure with the .45s may try some of new to me W244 with them as well.
Still thinking about the .357/.38 bullets.

Looks like those pulled 155s worked well for you in .40.
Does Longshot seem louder than other powders to you or is it just me?

You deserve something in the mail for everything you have done. Deciding what to load with a limited number of bullets is always a challenge, but it is fun. Enjoy!

I was surprised that the 155gr bullets worked so well with Longshot, especially since they are pulled bullets. It must be the quality LAX cases you sent me. For me Longshot has a bit of concussion, and is louder. The benefit is that you can shoot something at lower pressure but it feels high pressure. Probably not the best for competition, but great for range time. I am going to load up a few more of these since they are fun to shoot.

 

[vaalpens]

There's a reason it's nickname is LoudShot......

Correct. Loud and surprisingly accurate.

 

[vaalpens]

It has been difficult to decide what I wanted to get out of the loads using the Xtreme 200gr .45 SWC bullets, but I think I have made a decision. Obviously I can still change my mind, but for now I am going to go with similar powders and see how they stack up. I have already decided to increase the COL by .02" to 1.240", and then document the chrono data, accuracy and also feeding/extracting reliability. The reliability test is for the P220 and the SWC sharp shoulder, so it should not have any bearing on how well it will feed/extract in another gun.

For now I have decided to go with BE-86 and CFE Pistol. I am targeting the BE-86 loads to similar to what I have tested before, but I also wanted to include the suggested 1.240" COL and 6.5gr combination. The CFE Pistol loads are basically .2gr higher than the BE-86 loads to adjust for the CFE Pistol being a bit slower than BE-86. The velocities from min to max should be similar between the two powders.

The loads I am planning to test will be:
5 different loads of 5 each using Xtreme 200gr .45 SWC plated bullets, CCI300 primers, a COL of 1.240", Winchester cases, and BE-86 6.1gr, 6.2gr, 6.3gr, 6.4gr and 6.5gr.
5 different loads of 5 each using Xtreme 200gr .45 SWC plated bullets, CCI300 primers, a COL of 1.240", Winchester cases, and CFE Pistol 6.3gr, 6.4gr, 6.5gr, 6.6gr and 6.7gr.

The testing will be done from 15yards using a rest and a scope that won't be zeroed. Holes in the paper in a grouping is all I am looking for.

Finally made time to load up these beauties. I decided to stick with the original plan and load them up with BE-86 and CFE Pistol. One change I made though was using S&B cases since S&B is what I had primed. Here they are. All ready for testing.

 

[vaalpens]

So I made it out to the shooting range today to test the last of the bullets I received from Dudedog. Testing went normal without any FTE/FTF's, even with the SWC bullets. The only issue I thing was the chrono readings. It just seems they were all over the place, and then finally I started seeing some abnormal velocities. It could just be where the sun was today, about my 5 o'clock. The bullet shadow played some havoc with the readings, but so be it.

Following are the results from the Xtreme 200gr SWC bullet. I saw some really good groupings with some of the loads.

All testing was done at 15yards using a rest and not zeroed scope:

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.240"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, BE86, 6.1gr, CCI300
Average: 772
ES: 95
SD: 35.2
Force: 265
PF: 154
Velocities: 715, 810, 774, 788, 774
Grouping @ 15yd: 2.06"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.240"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, BE86, 6.2gr, CCI300
Average: 773
ES: 48
SD: 17.2
Force: 265
PF: 154
Velocities: 775, 796, 748, 778, 772
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.91"
Test Date: 12/24/2018



45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.240"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, BE86, 6.3gr, CCI300
Average: 791
ES: 38
SD: 15.2
Force: 278
PF: 158
Velocities: 809, 802, 792, 782, 771
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.7"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.240"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, BE86, 6.4gr, CCI300
Average: 791
ES: 27
SD: 9.6
Force: 278
PF: 158
Velocities: 804, 791, 792, 777, 792
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.79"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.240"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, BE86, 6.5gr, CCI300
Average: 811
ES: 68
SD: 26.7
Force: 292
PF: 162
Velocities: 779, 847, 792, 818, 822
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.17"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.240"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, CFEpistol, 6.3gr, CCI300
Average: 762
ES: 102
SD: 43.8
Force: 258
PF: 152
Velocities: 764, 820, 718, 788, 721
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.06"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.240"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, CFEpistol, 6.4gr, CCI300
Average: 791
ES: 141
SD: 55.8
Force: 278
PF: 158
Velocities: 712, 824, 853, 760, 809
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.36"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.240"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, CFEpistol, 6.5gr, CCI300
Average: 780
ES: 129
SD: 51.4
Force: 270
PF: 156
Velocities: 698, 827, 767, 816, 793
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.2"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.240"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, CFEpistol, 6.6gr, CCI300
Average: 1052
ES: 1274
SD: 568.6
Force: 491
PF: 210
Velocities: 796, 796, 801, 2070, 801
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.12"
Test Date: 12/24/2018



45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.240"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, CFEpistol, 6.7gr, CCI300
Average: 1038
ES: 1989
SD: 1002.4
Force: 478
PF: 207
Velocities: 100, 2089, 2089, 814, 100
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.49"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

 

[Dudedog]

Looks like they like CFE-P in your gun. (and the gun shoots well)
To bad the chrono readings are crazy, guessing 814 is a good number.

It looks like the ones I sent you were smart enough to know they were supposed to follow each other!
I think I kept all the dumb ones

 

[vaalpens]

Looks like they like CFE-P in your gun. (and the gun shoots well)
To bad the chrono readings are crazy, guessing 814 is a good number.

It looks like the ones I sent you were smart enough to know they were supposed to follow each other!
I think I kept all the dumb ones

The sun was perfect for putting light on the target, but probably not the best for the chrono.

Shooting the last CFE-P load was difficult since I could see the hole was just getting a little bit bigger every time, so I knew I had a good one going. A lot of pressure on the last shot.

 

[vaalpens]

Another bullet I tested today was the RMR 230gr plated RN bullet. I tried to test these loads a while ago, but realized I could not get all 5 rounds in my P220 magazine. So all these rounds had to be seated a little bit shorter, so I'm not sure how the seating after the first crimp impacted the accuracy of the loads. Following are the results from the test today.

The velocities seems all over the place so, again I'm not sure how accurate the chrono readings are.

All testing was done at 15yards using a rest and a scope that was not zeroed:

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Geco
COL: 1.262"
RMR, 230gr, PRN, HP38, 4.7gr, CCI300
Average: 656
ES: 65
SD: 24.8
Force: 220
PF: 150
Velocities: 625, 641, 666, 659, 690
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.07"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Geco
COL: 1.262"
RMR, 230gr, PRN, HP38, 4.8gr, CCI300
Average: 620
ES: 54
SD: 26
Force: 196
PF: 142
Velocities: 598, 649, 647, 615, 595
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.22"
Test Date: 12/24/2018



45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Geco
COL: 1.262"
RMR, 230gr, PRN, HP38, 4.9gr, CCI300
Average: 697
ES: 84
SD: 32.4
Force: 248
PF: 160
Velocities: 646, 703, 718, 692, 730
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.74"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Geco
COL: 1.262"
RMR, 230gr, PRN, HP38, 5gr, CCI300
Average: 693
ES: 35
SD: 16.6
Force: 245
PF: 159
Velocities: 678, 703, 705, 707, 672
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.11"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Geco
COL: 1.262"
RMR, 230gr, PRN, HP38, 5.1gr, CCI300
Average: 705
ES: 110
SD: 41.4
Force: 254
PF: 162
Velocities: 643, 709, 753, 729, 694
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.87"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Geco
COL: 1.262"
RMR, 230gr, PRN, SportPistol, 4.7gr, CCI300
Average: 632
ES: 86
SD: 39
Force: 204
PF: 145
Velocities: 597, 674, 588, 666, 635
Grouping @ 15yd: 2.54"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Geco
COL: 1.262"
RMR, 230gr, PRN, SportPistol, 4.8gr, CCI300
Average: 670
ES: 83
SD: 30.7
Force: 229
PF: 154
Velocities: 628, 667, 711, 685, 661
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.08"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Geco
COL: 1.262"
RMR, 230gr, PRN, SportPistol, 4.9gr, CCI300
Average: 668
ES: 115
SD: 44.9
Force: 228
PF: 153
Velocities: 601, 716, 698, 676, 650
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.1"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Geco
COL: 1.262"
RMR, 230gr, PRN, SportPistol, 5gr, CCI300
Average: 713
ES: 155
SD: 57.5
Force: 260
PF: 163
Velocities: 626, 781, 697, 721, 740
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.4"
Test Date: 12/24/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Geco
COL: 1.262"
RMR, 230gr, PRN, SportPistol, 5.1gr, CCI300
Average: 704
ES: 50
SD: 27
Force: 253
PF: 161
Velocities: 684, 678, 728, 727,
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.7" (*) Only 4 shout group.
Test Date: 12/24/2018

 

[Dudedog]

Looks like 5gr of HP38 shot well with them.
I still need to get the ones you sent me loaded up.
Still trying to decide on more charges of less powders or more powders.
Thinking maybe more powders HP38, W244, SP and AA#2
Decisions, decisions

 

[vaalpens]

Looks like 5gr of HP38 shot well with them.
I still need to get the ones you sent me loaded up.
Still trying to decide on more charges of less powders or more powders.
Thinking maybe more powders HP38, W244, SP and AA#2
Decisions, decisions

I also tested the RMR 230gr FMJRN bullet with HP38 and will post the results as soon as I documented everything in my spreadsheet. The 5.0gr, 5.1gr and 5.2gr loads all grouped well.

Here are the test results: RMR .45 230gr. FMJ RN test results