The facts only, please.

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ARTJR338WM

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Considering all of the awesome improvements in personal defensive ammunition over the last 5-7 years I was wondering if anyone has any irrefutable evidence preferably based on autopcys of criminals, that the 9mm Parabellum is on a even parr in all aspects with other larger calibers such as the .40s&w or the legendary .45acp?

I do not want and with all due repect, demand this not degrade into a ford vs chevy, 9mm vs 45acp type pissing match in any aspect what so ever. What I am asking for is facts based on cold hard real world evidence gained from use of ammunition in compleatly impartial performance tests or as previously stated, actual perfromance of 9mm defencive ammunition on people gained from coriners reports. That is if anyone has ever taken the time to correlate such information from coroners reports.

About ten years ago I read a story in one of the major gun mags, most likely Guns Magizine, but I am not sure, that listed the results of all the autopcies performed by Detroit Cities coroner in that the death of the person was caused by a gun shot wound. If I recall correctly the handgun caliber that recorded the highest number of incapcitation of a person by a single shot was the .357 magnum. If also I recall correctly, the same results showed that the 45acp and the 9mm parabellum were basicly equal in their instances of one shot incapacitation of a person. I know I am leaving out a whole library full of important info, but thats all i can recall with at least 90% certainty of accuracy.

I do not think information SPACIFICLY about the performance of the 9mm Parabellum that is based on results from the battle field are aplicable here as by international law our soldiers must use FMJ ammo and the 9mm has a well established record of poor performance in HGs with FMJ ammo and even today alot of complaints to this effect are comming out of Iraq and Afganistan about 9mm FMJ effectiveness. the same can not be daid of the 45acp when loaded with 230grn fmj ammo.

The most compelling evidence I can recount is my uncle who was in the USMC in the pacific during WW-II saying that the 45acp at close range knocked down and disposed of enemy soldiers better than his .30 caliber carabine did and he subsiquintly perfered, if left with no other choice except btwn the two the and his survival was on the line, he would take the 1911/45acp as he was a good shot with it. As a side note, as soon as he could he "upgreaded" to the M1 Garrand because in his words, the M1 Garrand 99% of the time would solve all of the problems it was designed to in only one shot.

Just the facts please, leave personal prejudice out of this.
 
I've seen videos of people being shot with everything form a .22LR to a .45ACP. No one was knocked down. No body parts flew off. Folks typically just stand there with a look of surprise on their face. It's amazingly anticlimatic compared to TV fictional shootings.
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There is no such thing as "Knockdown Power". If there was, you would go flying backwards every time you pulled the trigger.

This is the fact of the matter. Carry what you are comfortable carrying. There is no end all, be all caliber. If there was, every soldier and every citizen would be carrying the same gun. This isn't the case.

I feel comfortable knowing that I have a maximum of 15 shots with two mags and one in the tube through my 1911. I know I can hit a moving target and even though I haven't been in the situation, I feel confident that I could hold my own in a defensive situation with my handgun. If you like the 9mm, carry it. It is all preference and no matter how you slice it, this question will always turn into a "Ford vs. Chevy" argument.
 
Autopsy studies have significant limitations. They are certainly an important part of modern ballistic information gathering, but by no means the end-all, be-all.

What you can't tell from an autospy is how long after the shot did the person become incapacitated, and thus unable to inflict harm on someone else. If a person is shot, and then it takes 5min, 10min,... to become incapacitated, and in that time frame manages to hurt others, before finally dying from the wound, that's considered a lethal shot, but it's by no means a good stop.

Those in the know, who post on this forum as well as some of the other forums interested in terminal ballistics will tell you that numerous LE agencies, which use the 9mm in modern designed bullets have "sucess rates" equal to those agencies which use bigger calibers. Unfortunately, those facts are not published for public consumption, so we have to take the words of the posters in good faith.
 
Here's one fact to consider.....

The FBI did alot of research on various calibers and they chose to ditch the 9mm in favor of the 10mm.
But then they decided that the 10mm was too powerful for some folks to shoot accurately, so they in turn ditched the 10mm for the .40S&W.
At no time did they consider going back to the 9mm.
 
Here's one fact to consider.....

The FBI did alot of research on various calibers and they chose to ditch the 9mm in favor of the 10mm.
But then they decided that the 10mm was too powerful for some folks to shoot accurately, so they in turn ditched the 10mm for the .40S&W.
At no time did they consider going back to the 9mm.
Click to expand...

That's because they made their choice on excusing incompetence (missing 27 times out of 28 shots) rather than anything to do with the 9mm itself. Because they wanted the new guns, the FBI had to convince Congress for the money to buy new guns, thus they engaged in a series of character assassination reports lambasting the 9mm. When their new vunderkartridge proved too much and too ergonomically unsound, they were up a creek because they'd totally eliminated the 9mm as a fallback by telling Congress it wasn't worth garbage. Fortunately, the .40 S&W was there. Rather than eat their own served up fecal matter, the FBI went to the .40 Smith.

Not that the .40 is a bad cartridge. It just owes its existence to an incident involving poor tactics, poor aim, and poor coordination in taking down two prepared, heavily armed and forewarned opponents.

'Nuff said.

Only hits count. Peripheral hits count FAR less than center hits.
 
ARTJR338WM,

All I will share are some experiences and observations when I worked in the main OR of a hospital.

-Gentleman stuck a 4" , .357 revolver loaded with .357 loadings, into his mouth and pulled the trigger.
He lived.

-Gentleman was brought into to ER, with multiple gun shot wounds, IIRC 14 ,and loads from 45ACP, .40, 9mm, .38spl .380.
First Responders said he was standing, and using a wall to steady himself, he was mad, and still cussing when he was brought in, and rushed to ER.
He lived.
We had no idea what all he had been shot with, caught in a crossfire b/t gangs.
"Did it ever occur to you to hit the deck for cover" he was asked.

-Lady, DRT from a single .22 short to aorta. We did the organ harvest.
-Gentleman, over 400 pounds , we did the organ harvest on, he took one hit from a .32ACP.

-Gent, took multiple hits from 00 buckshot, he lived.
-Lady , took two hits from a 12 bore slug, she lived.

My take: there is no rhythm or reason to any of this firearm, caliber, ammo type.
When it is your turn to get injured, maimed or dead, you do so.
 
I think sm put to rest the caliber war thing. It's what folks have been saying for years. It's about bullet placement.

Like they say in real estate. Location, Location, Location.
 
True enough there are many variables, but consider the US Military just like their experience in the Phillipenes are once again going to the venerable 45 hard to beat it. The nine wouldnt put the Pope down.
 
Is this just your opinion or do you have any evidence backing up this claim?
Click to expand...

The rationale for the full-powered 10mm round, given by the FBI, according to Massad Ayoob was "since agents miss 80% of the time, we don't have to worry about overpenetration anyway."

From every recorded document of the Miami "FBI massacre," the "Silvertip that failed" penetrated deep enough for an eventually fatal wound, but Platt's blood had been oxygenated by high amounts of adrenalin and hyperventilation. As such, the blood loss didn't affect his fighting ability.

It should also be noted that Agent Mireles hit both robbery suspects with 12 gauge buckshot at close range, and was forced to finish the gunfight with a mere .38 Special.

Lambasting the 9mm when 12 gauge didn't even stop the fight, only one out of 28 bullets struck their target, and the fight eventually ended with a .38 Special out of a three inch barrel was complete incompetency. Never mind that none of the FBI agents had their rifles ready, and one agent lost his sidearm when he placed it on the passenger seat next to him, then engaged in a car crash to stop the robbers.

Fighting rifles stashed in trunks, not accessible for an interception. Sidearms and corrective lenses lost in automobile crashes. Multiple misses.

Let's just say the FBI needed to scapegoat the 9mm, lest they lose their SWAT unit.
 
I agree with what some have said about certain people dieing almost instantly from small caliber handgun rounds and others hit by you would think, giant killers like 12ga buckshot or slugs, serviving. It remindes me of a History channel epasode on the Medics on the medivac chppers in Viet Nam saying that it amaized them that they would have one siverely wounded soldier litterally shot to hell with mutiple gunshot and fragmintation wounds go on to servive against all odds and then to the contrary, a soldier on the same flight with only one wound on the same level of siaverity die despite their best efforts.

This leads me to belive that how quickly, if at all a person is incapacitated by a gunshot wound or wounds has as much if not more to do with that persons both physical state as well as mental state of mind and just plane old will to live be it of a near superhuman levels in the desier to live, or in most cases not.

I wonder if anyone here can tell me the name of a Green Beret sargent of Hispanic extrection that while serving in Viet Nam, that was awarded the CMH for his litteral in every sence of the term "superman" level of bravery and his also equally superhuman ability to keep on going after being shot more than once, had a grinade fill his face and upper chest with shrapnel, his skull fractured by the butt of an AK-47 smashed into the back of his head while getting highly sencetive papers off of a dead fellow Green Beret officer, had badly cut his hand while using it to grab the bayonett to disarm and kill the NVA soldier that had just used the same AK-47 to smash him in the back of the head with it and was trying to bayonett him. I also recall reading that that after indurring all these mutiple wounds, almost any single one of which would have taken 95% of the rest of us out of commision, he proceded to pick up two wounded Green Barets and carry them back to a waiting chopper and saved their lives. But wait thats not all, while carring the two wounded Barets to the waiting chopper he spotted two NVA soldiers preparing to shoot a RPG-7 at the chopper he was going to, he promptly put down his wounded fellow Berets and killed both of the NVA, picked the two wounded Barets back up and took them to the chopper. But not before he was almost shot by the door gunner (prior to picking up the two barets) as he was so badly covered in blood and such a mess the door gunner could not tell he was a US soldier and thank God someone stoped him from shooting.

I am not ashamed to admit when I read his story of heroism and selfsacrifice that he exibited that day, tears were rolling down my cheeks. He was awarded his Congressional Medal Of Honor meny years lator by then President Ronald Regan. It took that long because there were almost no servivors to corraborate his actions of that days combat and nominate him to receive the CMH. Sadly this great example of what makes the Amrican fighting man unique in the world, has since passed away long before his time. Im sure without a doubt the massive level of wounds he recived that faitfull day played a major roll in his untimely death.
 
A long time ago, an ER doctor told me that supersonic bullets created a large area of necrosis in tissue near the wound. Not immediately affecting, but, later, in the hospital, a big problem.
b-
 
Quote:
The rationale for the full-powered 10mm round, given by the FBI, according to Massad Ayoob....
Yeah, that's what I thought....just more internet chatter with no real evidence.
Click to expand...

are you saying Mas isn't a credible source?
 
Quote:
The rationale for the full-powered 10mm round, given by the FBI, according to Massad Ayoob....Yeah, that's what I thought....just more internet chatter with no real evidence.
Click to expand...

I've been reading about the FBI Massacre since the 1980's. And Mas is not an "internet chatter without evidence." The guy speaks with agency armorers and firearms training units across the country. His documentation is better than your rather iffy presentation of "the FBI has not gone back to 9mm," which is especially amusing since they allow agents to purchase their own .38 Special and 9mm backup weapons, and throughout the 90's their neighbors and friends, the DEA, who also train at Quantico kept the 9mm up until this Millenium when they finally, after several years, switched to .40's.

Of course, I'm only supplying commonly observable facts which can be proven with just a simple lookup.
 
Some people are fighters and will not go down easy, sometimes bullets do magical things, sometimes people react differently to pain, sometimes people get shot and cuss you out before expiring, sometimes they die instantly...

It's not a predictable thing, just SHOOT UNTIL THE DEED AT HAND IS DONE WITH WHAT EVER YOU GOT.
 
Autopsy reports only tell you who died, not who won the fight or why. .357 magnum gets a lot of one shot stops, but that doesn't make it the ultimate round. Maybe the recoil and double action trigger pull make it difficult to get a hit at all, for example. Another possibility is that there's some "overkill" from 9mm and .40 users who are able to get in two or three shots before their target goes down, even if the first hit would have been good enough to do the job.

The FBI went and rigorously tested precisely the wrong thing. They got a cartridge with outstanding terminal effects, but low practical utility.

What really matters is: factoring out skill and the circumstances of the gunfight (which you can do by taking a large enough sample) which platform produces the highest percentage of "wins" (however you define that). 9mm is easier to shoot than .357 magnum and allows a higher rate of fire and more shots overall. That combination is kind of like choosing the weak 5.56 mm plus full auto versus the semi auto only 7.62mm.

For a LEO cartridge, look at LEO shootings and start checking performance. You've got to control for things like surprise, range, multiple officers, etc. For an SD cartridge, you've got to look at SD situations (and maybe select LEO data will be useful). The real question is which platform gives you the best chance of survival.

FWIW, I believe that platform is the one in which you have the most confidence. Confidence will help the shooter act boldly and apply the fundamentals of marksmanship despite danger. The mind of the shooter is as important as the size of the bullet.
 
are you saying Mas isn't a credible source?
Click to expand...
As much as Mas is respected in gun circles, if he really said this:
The rationale for the full-powered 10mm round, given by the FBI, according to Massad Ayoob was "since agents miss 80% of the time, we don't have to worry about overpenetration anyway."
Click to expand...
then I would be very interested in EXACTLY WHO at the FBI told Mas this.
Regardless, DougDubya is posting information that he claims Mas stated, with Mas himself quoting an un-named FBI source.
I can't take such "Mas said that someone told him..." statements as gospel.
If you choose to believe such statements then that's your perogative.


I'm not really surprised that some folks still defend the 9mm, but this doesn't change the fact that law enforcement agencies (yes, that includes the FBI) have largely abandoned the 9mm in favor of other calibers.

This doesn't mean that there's no place for the 9mm....
I personally think the 9mm is a great caliber for small concealable pistols, just as the .38 special is fine for small pocket snubbies.
Heck, I have no desire to shoot a .357sig or even a .40S&W from an ultra-light weight pocket pistol.
But for a full-sized service pistol, the 9mm would certainly not be my first choice.
 
What follows is all supposition and/or heresay. I've heard that "professional assasins" use .22lr pistols; I've never knowingly met one to ask. I actually had a copy of, and read the Strassbourg Goat Test in the early 90's. I got it from the Magsafe ammo company whose .380 load supposedly beat out every other load (regardless of caliber) in existance at the time (average incompacitation time). Odd it seems, that I haven't been able to find a copy of the "test" anywhere online, despite many searches, only references to it. (If any of you have a link to it, please post it or click on my screen name and email it to me).
I think your chances of surviving an armed encounter will be best increased by 1) your level of practice and familiarity with your chosen weapon; 2) shot placement (location, location, location), 3) some element of luck.
Merely my opinion.
 
Direct side-by-side comparisons are hard to make, but from what I've heard the departments that are using 9mms currently get very good results with 127 gr. +P+ loads. This isn't surprising, since the ballistics of these rounds nudges up toward .357 Magnum territory. The San Diego PD also appears to get good results from 147 gr. "subsonic" loads.
 
From every recorded document of the Miami "FBI massacre," the "Silvertip that failed" penetrated deep enough for an eventually fatal wound, but Platt's blood had been oxygenated by high amounts of adrenalin and hyperventilation. As such, the blood loss didn't affect his fighting ability.

It should also be noted that Agent Mireles hit both robbery suspects with 12 gauge buckshot at close range, and was forced to finish the gunfight with a mere .38 Special.
Click to expand...

The use of a Winchester Silvertip (in .357 magnum) and buckshot in the 12 gauge has been disputed. According to one school of thought, it was a .38 Special +P 158gr LSWCHP from a .357 magnum and #6 birdshot from the 12 gauge. See, http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/03/0604-03a.htm

This is part of a public spitting contest between Ayoob and Dawson.

The methodology of the "one shot stop" analysis done by Evan Marshall et al. has been mathematically discredited. See, e.g., http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

That is not to say there is not some truth in there, but you can't rely on them to reliably answer the question as to best caliber and/or bullet.

It is not my intention to start a war about this. I am only using this to illustrate that the answer to the question posed is "No, there is no irrefutable evidence that 9mm is equal in 'stopping power' to larger calibers" (or vice versa).
 
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