The Guns of "Spaghetti Westerns"

[daboyleroy]

Cimarron Firearms and The Guns of "Spaghetti Westerns"
by Rick Hacker - Friday, September 14, 2018

https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...wsletter&utm_medium=insider&utm_campaign=0918


It is a good read, follow the link for the “rest of the story”

“A few years previously, Mike had become a distributor for Leonard Allen, a major U.S. importer of Uberti replica revolvers and rifles. Now Mike and Mary Lou were about to purchase Allen’s company, which would make them one of the nation’s leading Uberti firearm distributors and dealers. With his penchant for detail, Mike had already contributed to upgrading Uberti’s replicas, including having them re-locate the mandatory-but-distracting governmental proofmarks to less conspicuous areas, such as under the barrel. He also had sent the company, located in the historic Italian armsmaking capital of Brescia, original cap-and-ball revolvers and Colt Single Action Armys from his personal collection so they could better duplicate the look and feel of the originals.”




https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/9/14/cimarron-comes-to-hollywood/

 

[ThomasT]

Thanks for the links. Now I want a new gun. I just don't know which one yet.

 

[bannockburn]

Nice article; always interesting to see behind the scenes of gun manufacturers, especially the Italian ones! Thanks for the link!

 

[expat_alaska]

Cimarron creates some very nice guns. The MWNN snake conversion is a bit steep in the price tag. It seems to be a Uberti 1851 Navy with a Kirst Converter. One could do it with a Pietta 1851 Navy .36 and the Kirst for a bit over half the price and a bit of home style persuasion. It only has one snake. I did one a few years ago with pewter snakes on both sides of the wood for less than $40 and some home work, but it was not a conversion.

I am not denouncing Cimarron, but with this entry it is not worth the price, IMO.

Jim

 

[daboyleroy]

Thanks for the links. Now I want a new gun. I just don't know which one yet.

Evil Roy
https://www.texasjacks.com/catalog/...omp-sa-4-3-4-45-lc-old-model-low-wide-hammer/


Nice holster

https://www.texasjacks.com/holster-lightning-lined-double-loop.html



Hollywood guns

https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/products/hollywood-series.html

 

[ThomasT]

I like the man With No Name conversion in 38 Special. That would be my first choice. I may have to go dig out one of my Clint Eastwood spaghetti specials and watch it.

 

[Stormson]

Ok.. If no one else is gonna say it, I will.

Detail this and detail that.. cool.. rock on... Soo why the HELL cant they fix the ARBOR details???

As of right NOW, I simply wont HAVE an Uberti Colt.. PERIOD. Im not about to be FORCED to pay as much, or more (in money OR time), to fix the damn thing as I PAID for it in the first place.

I mean.. sure.. they LOOK nicer then Pietta... And Pietta is looked down upon as the "lesser" of the two... Ok, fine, then if Pietta so much lesser, then how come THEY made their guns to work correctly out of the box.. YEARS ago now... and Uberti STILL ignores the problem???

They certainly dont seem to have any problems CHARGING the PRICE of an actual working gun... Dont even get me started on the price of parts for the HALF WAY working "piece of art" they keep shipping.

Pietta Colts and Uberti Remingtons.. They DO make a nice Remington... And a fairly decent paper weight that resembles an actual working Colt.

 

[paul harm]

Now, tell us how you really feel. I don't own a Colt copy, but do own a couple Pietta NMAs and think they're just fine. The trigger pull is a little heavy and had to be corrected, but other than that they're a decent gun for the money.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I love that scene in The Good, The Bad & The Ugly where blondie is cleaning the bored through cylinder of his revolver. As a child, I didn't notice that they didn't exist (except for S&W rimfires) back in the Civil War.

The Italians (Pietta and Uberti) are making better reproductions today than they were in the '70s. The metallurgy is much better.

 

[CraigC]

Cimarron creates some very nice guns. The MWNN snake conversion is a bit steep in the price tag. It seems to be a Uberti 1851 Navy with a Kirst Converter. One could do it with a Pietta 1851 Navy .36 and the Kirst for a bit over half the price and a bit of home style persuasion. It only has one snake. I did one a few years ago with pewter snakes on both sides of the wood for less than $40 and some home work, but it was not a conversion.

I am not denouncing Cimarron, but with this entry it is not worth the price, IMO.

Jim

Nope. It's not a conversion at all but actually an 1871-1872 Open Top frame, there is no conversion ring. The factory cartridge guns are made with better steels and are proofed for smokeless. Not to mention that a percussion Navy with Kirst gated conversion will have a .375" bore and require heeled bullets or relining the barrel. Street price for the MWNN without the snake is $450 or $640 with the snake. The snake is sterling silver and that's why it's $200 more. If you go the other route, you'll pay $325 just for the gated conversion, $450 if you have Kirst install it. Relining is going to be around $150. Of course, there are others like Hoof Hearted who also do these but the idea that it's cheaper to convert a percussion gun is just not realistic.

 

[Tommygunn]

Feel better now? That was an interesting rant. All my Uberti's seem to work pretty good but I only have 20 of them.

Mine do too. I don't doubt the "short arbor syndrome" is real .... but even my oldest, most shot, Ubertis work very well. Flat metal springs on a few are replacements for broken ones, but no other problems.

I have a 1871 Open Top which has absolutly NO gap in front of the arbor. I wonder how that happened?

 

[CraigC]

That's cute. It was a rant. Nothing but a rant that had NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand.

 

[expat_alaska]

All my Uberti's seem to work pretty good but I only have 20 of them.

Have you checked the arbor to the lug recess fit? You may have gotten away with it for a long time, but how does the wedge fit insofar as barrel/cylinder clearance? I don't care how many you have, and if you have 20, how many times have they been shot? There is no mistaking the short arbor to recess fit with an Uberti, and one cannot create a constant barrel/cylinder gap by choosing how far the wedge goes in. Even the original Colt manual says one has to pound the wedge in. Craig, they are your guns and it is your call.

I still think a box of 100 .002" washers to fit the arbor recess would be a good fix for you for the barrel/cylinder gap. Cheap remedy.

You have a good night, sir.

Regards,

Jim

 

[Stormson]

You can call it what you like, but I call it a valid concern... And worse, one that is costing an otherwise decent company both customers and sales.

I mean.. You think I wouldnt LIKE to have an Uberti Colt? Of course I would. I would also like to have a Mazarati (SP?).. But just like I wouldnt spend that kind of money one that was PURPOSELY built with a short drive train, Im also not gonna spend the extra 100-200USD on a gun that needs fixed right out of the box!

Youre welcome to have all of them you like man... But until they fix the actual PROBLEM instead of trying to lure people in with pretty looks, Ill stick to my Pietta that stays on target after I clean and reassemble..

They do make BEAUTIFUL Colts... But a pretty Cadillac dont do much if its got a busted tranny. And a pretty Colt that I cant trust to hit where I need it to hit is of the same value.

I DO wish I had started with Uberti Remingtons instead of Pietta.. Pietta makes great ones, and these days they make great Colts that actually WORK as well, but Uberti Remingtons DO seem to be better. If they WOULD fix the Colts and put them on par with their remmis I would LOVE them... Until then.. meh.. Not for ME, YOU do as you like...

 

[Stormson]

And 99% dont actually USE them.. as is evident from the fact that they "dont know its a problem", and from the self righteous replies from some of the obviously lesser well informed among us.

As I said, if its not a problem for you, then thats YOU. Good for ya... But for some of us who actually RELY on them to operate properly, well, for all your kicking and screaming they STILL aint getting one red cent of MY money until its no longer a problem for ME, and that will happen EXACTLY when they FIX the issue.. Not when some know it all online claims that it somehow ISNT a problem just because most people are too dimwitted to "know its a problem".

 

[CraigC]

It's kinda like this, some folks go looking for problems. If that's what you're into, you'll find something. Some folks go looking for problems before even firing the first shot. Others actually SHOOT the thing to determine whether or not a problem is worth worrying about. Like those folks who start measuring chamber throats before actually shooting the thing. Or the guy on another forum who took his new Uberti completely apart and started complaining that it had some roughness and wasn't finished like a USFA on the inside. Some problems are legitimate, others are far more serious in the individual's mind than they are in reality. I never said this wasn't an issue at all. Merely that it isn't the catastrophic problem that 'some' claim it is. Last I checked, I've been USING Uberti sixguns pretty steadily since 1986. I carry one every hunting season.

And for all the whining about spending money on it, you can get a full tune-up from Goons Gun Works for $165.

http://www.goonsgunworks.com/services/

You've obviously made up your mind that anyone who disagrees with you is a moron. To be throwing around "know it all" and "self righteous", you have ZERO Uberti Open Tops, yet you're telling those of us who have been enjoying them for decades that we're wrong? Aren't you the one that thought the 1860 could be converted to the 21,000psi .45ACP? Just 4yrs ago you said, "Im pretty new to BP...". Google the word "irony".

You'll get along a lot better if you calm down and cut the personal jabs. Doesn't sit well with the moderators.

Interesting that I've been shooting and carrying this Uberti for 12yrs. Even went so far as to have it engraved, refinished and fitted with ivory. Funny it never occurred to me to worry about the arbor. I shoot it enough to be considering getting another Dillon setup specifically for the .44Colt.



This year the 1851 Richards-Mason will get the nod, in a holster I'm finishing up.



Another favorite.




None of which has ANYTHING to do with this thread. As I said, if you want to rant about arbor fit, start your own thread.

 

[Tommygunn]

And 99% dont actually USE them.. as is evident from the fact that they "dont know its a problem", and from the self righteous replies from some of the obviously lesser well informed among us.

As I said, if its not a problem for you, then thats YOU. Good for ya... But for some of us who actually RELY on them to operate properly, well, for all your kicking and screaming they STILL aint getting one red cent of MY money until its no longer a problem for ME, and that will happen EXACTLY when they FIX the issue.. Not when some know it all online claims that it somehow ISNT a problem just because most people are too dimwitted to "know its a problem".

I've used and shot Uberti revolvers for 20+ years. I never heard of the short arbor syndrome until maybe the last few months.
And I've had no problems. Well, broken springs ....

Buy what guns you want, it's your $$$$. This is getting like the mil-spec Mashups on AR forums...."it's cr@P if it ain't milspec! / no, it's BETTER than mil spec! / can't be, milspec is heaven ordained! / if it ain't mil spec it will blowup into a zillion pieces on shot number 5!" .... and on and on and on.

Not to be overly snarky .... but I doubt anyone here cares what brand you buy. Oh .... and you're not really depending upon a gun if it's not being used to save your life, and if it's self defense, GET A MODERN FIREARM! Pleeeeaaase.

 

[Stormson]

Sorry that it took so long to get back.. I have a real life as well, so...

As for my "personal insults", I gave a VALID concern that not only valid but PROVEN, established and totally accepted as INDISPUTABLE FACT. When I did, I was basically attacked for speaking the truth... Ok, Perhaps that got under my skin a bit, but before we go tossing around the "moderator" word, some folks may wanna go back and reread what a jack a++ THEY came off looking like.

That being said.. Nope, aint got a ONE of em.. and aint GOING to have a one of them until they get off their duff and FIX the problem. PERIOD. The fact that some contractors are able to slap a nice coat of paint on a house with a KNOWN busted foundation, and still sell it, doesnt encourage ME in any way to BE that sucker.

The fact that YOU fell for that scam not once, not twice, but TWENTY times or more may go a LONG way towards explaining your reaction towards speaking a well established FACT... Sorry that your feelings where hurt, but I didnt buy that broken gun, YOU did. Its not MY fault that you dont enjoy me pointing out the reason I WONT buy one.

This has EVERYTHING to do with this threat. My GOD man. You think I wouldnt LOVE to have one of those beautiful guns???? I wish to hell that Pietta, or some other company that actually cared about its customers would make some like it...

But I actually USE mine. Yes, that was four years ago, and by the way, they DID used to make one... They dont eny more, but they did at one time, so whatever, I was right about THAT too. Oh, BTW, Kirst STILL makes one for the Remmi.

As for hanging one off ya hip once or twice a year while ya hunt with something else.. well, sorry man, but thats just laughable. In that 4yr time I have carried one pretty near EVERY DAY. Yes, Tommygun as my main sidearm... And yes I do have plenty of modern firearms, but if either of you kept with the forum youd have seen me say, again and again, that in MY situation its the best fit. The versatility simply trumps firepower for me.. But I would NOT recommended that for MOST folks in most places.

We have partial custody of the grandbabies... Hence why I wasnt able to get back to this very soon. We are also pretty damn POOR. I need my guns to do ALL that they CAN do before I sink the dough into them. I have a .380, a 38 +p J frame, a .45ACP and a couple of cheap .22s. I carry the .38 from time to time, but honestly, even with +P I always WISH I had my 45 when I do. Between it and its conversion cylinder, it can do damn NEAR everything that all those listed above can do... In ONE gun. And being single action is, in my opinion, safer around the younguns.

Since I have carried these I have taken a wild dog that came WAY too close and WAY too mean, while all his buddies hung out up on top of the ridge waiting to see how things went for him. That was with the remmi. With the colt Ive had to kill a coyote that came at the ol ladies dog (she has a toy yorkie that I could literally fit in my front pocket) down at the river, and two cottonmouths that got too close to the babies for my liking at the same river... And one copperhead at the oldest boys daddies house that, again, got way too close for comfort to the kids.

We have REGULAR black bear attacks around here.... Just people and bears too damn close to each other... We also have REAL boar here... Like 600lb wilds mixed with Russians. Luckily I havent run into either yet, but STILL... This isnt some playground where I wear it on my belt once or twice a year while actually USING something better... I actually DEPEND on these things and Im not ABOUT to take second best just because they toss a pretty pain job on it... I NEED to know where it hits, each time and EVERY time. If other can afford to take chances, 20 times in a row, thats FINE for them.. But being a total ass to ME about it isnt going to change my mind, them FIXING the damn PROBLEM is the only thing thats going to change my mind.

SO, right back where we STARTED...Man, those are some incredibly BEAUTIFUL guns... How sad that I simply cant afford the price of a brand new Hi-Point that actually WORKS to fix them RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX.

 

[Navy Six 2]

Concerning the original thread about the article in question, I was surprised to find that the Italians weren't allowed to use animal bone in their color case process. First time I heard that. Concerning that "short arbor" thing...I have 20+ cap & ball pistols. Most are Uberti's and most have a slightly short arbor, or too deep a hole in the barrel. However you choose to look at it. My worst one is a 1996 production Pietta 51 Navy which needed the thickness of a nickel to fix. That didn't stop me from buying another Pietta this year, a new 44 Navy. Arbor was perfect, internals were nice. But, the trigger screw hole was "egg" shaped and the screw was forced in at the factory anyway. Had to finally use a breaker bar to remove the screw. Of course the bit slipped and I nicked the frame. My point is since I can buy both Pietta and Uberti guns for under $400, I will live with these problems since I've learned to fix them. I would pay twice the price for a gun ready to go out of the box, but I don't know anyone making them that way.

 

[Tommygunn]

"My worst is a 1996 production Pietta 51 Navy ..."

Oh noes, Pietta has the short arbor syndrome too! It must be contagious!

 

[expat_alaska]

Concerning that "short arbor" thing...My worst one is a 1996 production Pietta 51 Navy which needed the thickness of a nickel to fix. That didn't stop me from buying another Pietta this year, a new 44 Navy. Arbor was perfect, internals were nice. but I don't know anyone making them that way.

Pietta hand fitted guns until they went to CNC machining ~2000. Your 1996 Pietta was an example of this. They learned. Uberti still has not.

If you buy an older Pietta, be aware that fitting the arbor to the barrel will be similar to present day Ubertis. Too bad that Uberti does not care about the fit. I think they rely upon finish as opposed to fit.

Jim

 

[CraigC]

The mighty Craigc has spoken once again, all our opinions and experience must go out the window. Prepare to insulted and put down. That nonsense is not the purpose of these threads. Treating folks the way you want to be treated goes a long way.

Better look again. I make my point without insulting people. Sorry but disagreeing is not a personal attack.

 

[arcticap]

Concerning the original thread about the article in question, I was surprised to find that the Italians weren't allowed to use animal bone in their color case process. First time I heard that. Concerning that "short arbor" thing...I have 20+ cap & ball pistols. Most are Uberti's and most have a slightly short arbor, or too deep a hole in the barrel. However you choose to look at it. My worst one is a 1996 production Pietta 51 Navy which needed the thickness of a nickel to fix. That didn't stop me from buying another Pietta this year, a new 44 Navy. Arbor was perfect, internals were nice. But, the trigger screw hole was "egg" shaped and the screw was forced in at the factory anyway. Had to finally use a breaker bar to remove the screw. Of course the bit slipped and I nicked the frame. My point is since I can buy both Pietta and Uberti guns for under $400, I will live with these problems since I've learned to fix them. I would pay twice the price for a gun ready to go out of the box, but I don't know anyone making them that way.

USFA used to build C&B's having a higher quality fit and finish using Uberti parts.
I don't know if they were using their own authentic bone case color hardening at that time or not like they did later on with at least some of their SAA's.
Perhaps someone else knows.
A few posts from old threads attest to the higher quality of the USFA C&B's and their prices reflected it since they cost more than either Uberti or Pietta Colts at the time.

Always wanted a third model Dragoon. Just never had one appear at the right time.
Now the proud owner of one new, unfired, USFA Third Model Dragoon.
Photos after receipt of box containing same.

Anyone else have any stories about the (rare) USFA cap & ball stuff? It's fairly uncommon and reputed to be superb in fit and finish....

...I probably overpaid,as it's more than you can buy a second gen Colt for, but the reputation of USFA and the rarity of the thing was compelling.
It'll be interesting to see, the finish level of these is supposed to be superb.
How many did USFA build? 40? 50? Not many, for sure.

--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/happy-willie-has-a-new-dragoon.745676/#post-9377453

Neither of my black powder blue books show a stainless 1860 Army by USFA.
This is for a blue and case hardened model.
USFA, 1860 Army MSRP $385 100% $355 98% $315 90% $235 80% $195

I compared the 2nd gen Colt values. this is for a 100% rated firearm.
1860 blued $775
1860 blue w/fluted cyl $850
1860 Stainless steel $900

--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/stainless-usfa-1860-or-not.456943/

 

[arcticap]

xxxx

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I rest my case. Previous posts also bear witness

Stormson, yes, you win. You are the only one here who is informed, enlightened and hardcore. The rest of us are just dilettantes who can only dream of reaching your pinnacle of sixgunnery. And to have reached such a lofty position while being "pretty damned poor", well that's an even greater accomplishment. God knows I have never carried sixguns and used them daily, nope, just you.