The most dangerous alteration you've seen?

[Rock185]

Once upon a time at a range, a fellow shooter showed me a gun he was quite proud of. It was a cheapo black powder derringer kit that he had converted to fire regular .45 Colt metallic cartridges. I can't remember all the details, but did see that the breach area around the firing pin was just a large hole,only slightly smaller in diameter than the rim of a .45 Colt case. When fired, there was no support whatsoever for the primer. He could not understand why the primer backed completely out of the case with each and every round fired. He invited me to fire his creation. I respectfully declined.

I've had primers pierce before, and got some high pressure gas back in my direction. With a primer blowing completely out of the case, even at a relatively low 14000 psi, it must have been a "blast" to shoot that "custom" POS.....

 

[Cee Zee]

And I had never heard of a release trigger until this thread.

I need to retract this. I remembered a kid I went to grade school with mentioning a trigger like this way back when. It just came to me. That had to be 45 years ago or more.

 

[tark]

One of the most dangerous modifications you can ever do to a firearm is to modify it so it can accept and shoot ammunition that is loaded FAR in excess of the pressures it was designed to handle.

The various Webley revolvers that were altered to accept 45 ACP ammo in clips are a perfect example. It is a miracle they haven't all blown up.

The working pressure for a 45 ACP is around 18,000 PSI. The Webleys were proofed at 13,500 PSI and the working pressure for the .455 is about 9,000 PSI. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the potential for disaster!

And then there are the complete idiots that claim to have done something that is impossible... In the auto pistol thread a while back, someone claimed to have re-chambered his Tokarev to shoot 38 Supers and "You can shoot 9X23 Winchesters, too"

Right. You try that and you won't shoot more than one...hope they find all the pieces of your hand....maybe they can sew it back together.

 

[ljnowell]

One of the most dangerous modifications you can ever do to a firearm is to modify it so it can accept and shoot ammunition that is loaded FAR in excess of the pressures it was designed to handle.



The various Webley revolvers that were altered to accept 45 ACP ammo in clips are a perfect example. It is a miracle they haven't all blown up.



The working pressure for a 45 ACP is around 18,000 PSI. The Webleys were proofed at 13,500 PSI and the working pressure for the .455 is about 9,000 PSI. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the potential for disaster!



And then there are the complete idiots that claim to have done something that is impossible... In the auto pistol thread a while back, someone claimed to have re-chambered his Tokarev to shoot 38 Supers and "You can shoot 9X23 Winchesters, too"



Right. You try that and you won't shoot more than one...hope they find all the pieces of your hand....maybe they can sew it back together.

Out of curiosity do you happen to have the pressure specs of 7.62x25 and 38 Super?

 

[Swing]

Friend of mine in high school had a marlin goose gun that he altered so that it fired when you closed the bolt.

Good God. And the point of this was what exactly?

As to the original question, I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet: all those .455 Webley to .45 ACP conversions done back in the day. I've personally seen one go kaboom at a range with standard 230-gr .45 ACP ammo. From what I've read, it is not all that uncommon that running said ammo in said wheelgun can result in a catastrophic failure. Not the "most dangerous alteration", of course, but one that is relatively common.

 

[Zach S]

I've only seen one Webley converted to .45 auto, but the guy handloaded for it and marked them with brass black(?).

 

[JTHunter]

The only work I have done on any of my guns, other than cleaning, is to repair a couple of cracks in the stock of my 12 ga. SxS.

Where the wood meets and surrounds the back of the breech-block, two small cracks ran towards the heel, 2-3". I drilled two small holes, put some 2-part epoxy in them and the cracks, then pulled them together with round-head brass wood screws.

As the screws were countersunk, I used wood filler to cover them up so they don't loosen up or back out.

 

[JRWhit]

I once looked at a colt 38 special that had a trigger operated through telekinesis.

Once the hammer was drawn back, all you had to do was think about touching the trigger and the hammer would fall. I left that one where I found it.

 

[HankB]

A number of folks have mentioned light triggers . . . I personally see no problem with a light trigger so long as it's consistent, reliable, and durable. The problem is, the basic trigger geometry of quite a few guns precludes achieving these qualities once you get below a certain level; I personally would not trust a 2 lb trigger in a 1911 no matter who the 'smith was.

Hmmm . . . another conversion I don't have a lot of confidence in are the Ishapore SMLEs in 7.62 NATO. Not really "conversions" as the Indians built them that way (some say the Indian steel is better than what the Brits used) they've taken a rifle action designed for the .303 British with a SAAMI MAP of 49000 PSI (CIP MAP of 52900 PSI) and modified it for the NATO round with MAP of 60191 PSI.

Toss in the possibility of .308 Win commercial ammo with a SAAMI MAP of 62000 PSI and you're working into the safety margin of the action; I really don't like to do that. Throw in the differences in pressure measurements, brass thickness, etc., and the situation becomes more complex.

I'm sure many, many thousands of these rifles have collectively fired many, many millions of rounds in military service, and still continue to do so today in private hands. But I choose not to have one in my collection.

 

[Sunray]

"...Needless to say, the pressure built up and..." No such thing will ever happen. The pressure is gone long before the action opens. And there's no place on any firearm, even a junker Kel-Tec, for pressure to be stored so it can "build up".
Ishapore SMLEs in 7.62 NATO are not conversions of anything. Purpose built using new and much better steel in the mid 60's.

 

[george burns]

It's kind of like Ebola, except it's e Bubba. Why people have to go and stick their hands into things that they know nothing about, has always amazed me.
It's like when the car won't start, and they open the hood, and stare at 10 thousand dollars worth of steel parts, and computers, as if somehow it's magically going to work with a tap here or there. Guns will bite you if you mess with them, even just a little bit.
Dremmels and grinders have no place in the hands of anyone who hasn't honed their skills over years of small supervised steps.
Anything that shoots a bullet should not be played with by those not familiar with how they work.
I worked with machinery my whole life, but not guns. If it's gun related I take it to a gunsmith, unless it's a drop in part. Even then sometimes they aren't exactly "drop in". As much as fit first.

 

[sawdeanz]

Firearms involve probably some of the highest pressures of anything manmade, no sense in messing with that.

 

[CLP]

I always thought 'Release Triggers' favored by some Trap Shooters years ago was a dangerous idea.

You load the gun, pull the trigger, and nothing happened.

Until you released pressure with the trigger finger.
And the gun fires!

I guess it was alright if you knew it had one.
And could overcome a lifetime of ingrained shooting habits to learn to use one.

But to the uninformed, finding Granddads old Model 12 trap gun has a release trigger installed in it is a real eye opener!

rc

This sounds similar to a mod viewable on YouTube of a guy who sticks a unfolded staple in the trigger assembly of a Ruger Mini 14. The gun fires with both the pull and release of the trigger. Repeated pulling/releasing the trigger gives a simulated automatic fire effect. Doesn't sound safe; unsure of the legality.

 

[Kaeto]

I've only seen one Webley converted to .45 auto, but the guy handloaded for it and marked them with brass black(?).

I hand load for my Webley. But it is the only gun I have that uses .45 acp

 

[tark]

The pressure curves for the 762X25 and the Super are not all that similar, although both are loaded to about 35,000 PSI ; in the same way that the pressure curve for an 30-06 with 150 gr bullets is different from the same round loaded with 220 grain bullets, even though both are loaded to the same pressure.

My point with the 9mm Tokarev rechambered to 38 super is this. For starters, you can't load Supers in a mag intended for 9X19s, they are too long. They will fit just fine in a 7.62X25 mag, but that mag won't fit in a 9MM Tokarev. Every one I have seen has a spacer tack welded into the fame so the short 9MM mag will fit snugly! O.K. So you swapped your rechambered barrel into a 7.62 frame and you are using 7.62 mags. Might work....but...

The post I am referring to said "and you can use 9X23 Winchester, too" or something to that effect.

So you're gonna touch off a round loaded to over 50,000 PSI in a Tokarev that was probably PROOFED at considerably less....

I'm betting you won't fire more than one round.

 

[ljnowell]

The pressure curves for the 762X25 and the Super are not all that similar, although both are loaded to about 35,000 PSI ; in the same way that the pressure curve for an 30-06 with 150 gr bullets is different from the same round loaded with 220 grain bullets, even though both are loaded to the same pressure.



My point with the 9mm Tokarev rechambered to 38 super is this. For starters, you can't load Supers in a mag intended for 9X19s, they are too long. They will fit just fine in a 7.62X25 mag, but that mag won't fit in a 9MM Tokarev. Every one I have seen has a spacer tack welded into the fame so the short 9MM mag will fit snugly! O.K. So you swapped your rechambered barrel into a 7.62 frame and you are using 7.62 mags. Might work....but...



The post I am referring to said "and you can use 9X23 Winchester, too" or something to that effect.



So you're gonna touch off a round loaded to over 50,000 PSI in a Tokarev that was probably PROOFED at considerably less....



I'm betting you won't fire more than one round.

No can't speak of the 9x23 as I have no experience with it. However I see no safety issue with the 38 Super.

As far as pressure curve, it's dependent on powder charge and bullet weight, but not cartridge. I can load two different powders under the same bullet weight loaded to the same max pressure and have different curve. The pressure curve itself has nothing to do with the safety of the conversion.

 

[anothernewb]

Well, I'll go way out here and probably irritate some people. I think the most dangerous thing out there for firearms is Youtube. It's a double edged sword of global proportions.

There is just no high enough numerical quantity of bad you can use to describe someone watching 5 minutes of video and then dragging out a dremel and a firearm.

I will add as a close second (because I'm guilty of it too) of grabbing load data from (anyone) on the internet and assuming they're okay without following proper procedure for your specific gun.

- that being said, the internet is an invaluable resource too, I've gleaned second hand information it would have taken years to amass. so it cuts both ways.

 

[tark]

I will concede that you might get away with firing Supers for a while in a Tokarev, provided you got around the dimensional issues I brought forth in my last post, provided they were the weak factory loaded stuff that passes for Super ammo today. I don't think the gun would hold up for very long.

But the post mentioned 9X23 Winchesters. That round is basically a 223 rifle case cut down and loaded to rifle pressures, over 50,000 pounds per square inch. No Tokarev would survive those kind of pressures. Nothing against the Tokarev, they are a brilliant design and I own two, both Czech. A Zastava 7.62 X 25 surplus and an M-70 in 9MM.

I knew a kid in High School that swore all up and down that he loaded his Trapdoor Springfield with "A hundred grains of Bullseye and a 500 grain bullet"

When you hear stuff like that all you can do is smile and turn away...

 

[Jim K]

And some mods are encouraged by idjits. I recall one poster who proudly proclaimed that he would never own a 1911 that had more than a two ounce trigger pull! Even if the darned fool meant a two pound pull, that is far too light for a 1911 and highly dangerous! But I am sure that out there someplace, someone is working on getting his trigger down to two ounces.

Jim

 

[ljnowell]

I will concede that you might get away with firing Supers for a while in a Tokarev, provided you got around the dimensional issues I brought forth in my last post, provided they were the weak factory loaded stuff that passes for Super ammo today. I don't think the gun would hold up for very long.



But the post mentioned 9X23 Winchesters. That round is basically a 223 rifle case cut down and loaded to rifle pressures, over 50,000 pounds per square inch. No Tokarev would survive those kind of pressures. Nothing against the Tokarev, they are a brilliant design and I own two, both Czech. A Zastava 7.62 X 25 surplus and an M-70 in 9MM.



I knew a kid in High School that swore all up and down that he loaded his Trapdoor Springfield with "A hundred grains of Bullseye and a 500 grain bullet"



When you hear stuff like that all you can do is smile and turn away...

I couldn't begin to guess about the 9x23 as I have never owned one or loaded for it. If it runs 50k as you posted I sure wouldn't pull the trigger on one in a tokerov that's for sure.

100 grains of bullseye in a trapdoor? Oh my! I've seen that before. I had a kid argue with me once that his 158 grain 38s (round nose lead bulk ammo) was way more powerful than a 147 grain 9mm. I tried explaining the similarities and differences but the discussion was ended when he told me that his had 158 grains of powder in it and look at how big the "bullet" was(referencing the brass). I just smiled and said, you may be right.

 

[strambo]

It's too bad many people are morons. You can make some good improvements and save a lot of $ doing things at home. With a little research, part swaps and minor things like feed ramp polishing are no issue.

Recently, I sent my wifes revolver to get a duty trigger job done by a well known smith. It came back with the most amazing DA trigger I have ever felt! I thought this is almost too light. Well, it was just a tad too light, we were getting light primer strikes about 1 or 2 in 50. The instructions said to tighten the hammer spring screw and if that doesn't work send it back.

He ground the screw down so there wasn't much adjustment left. Do I ship it back Fed-Ex to the tune of over $100! Heck no, for $8 shipped I got a factory screw, pulled up a youtube video of the great Jerry M disassembling a S&W, plus a parts schematic, and got the new screw in and all reassembled correctly no problem. Now it still has an awesome trigger pull, just a tad heavier but with a more forceful hammer drop for 100% reliability.

There is no way I would do a trigger job myself on a S&W revolver, I know my limitations.

 

[justice06rr]

A few days ago, I was talking with someone who used to work in a gun store. She told me about one customer who brought in a 9mm Kel-Tec and complained about it jamming. The owner took it down to the sand-trap where they test fired guns and started blasting away. It went smoothly for a little, and then everyone heard a massive boom.

The owner came up, furious. The gun had exploded in his hand. He slammed it down on the workbench and tore it apart. She says he had a lot of choice words for the customer.

What did he do? He ground down the part of the chamber between the magazine and the rest of the gun, "so it would load smoother". She says he read it on the internet. Needless to say, the pressure built up and ka-boom.

Has anyone ever seen someone try something so dangerous and/or ridiculous?

That issue with Keltec is popular in some of their pistols like the PF9.

I previously owned one (and sold it a month after) because of the same jamming issues. The feed ramp on them is not polished, so many owners polish the feed ramp. The idiot in your story obviously didn't know better and should work on guns himself.

I don't think a gun should need to be modified when you buy it brand new from the store/factory just so it will work reliably.

 

[tark]

ljnowell, it just makes you smile, sometimes, doesn't it? We have a local talk show host who just KNOWS for an absolute fact that the M-249 SAW was developed and is currently manufactured at the Rock Island Arsenal. He also knows that in the late sixties the army "removed the chrome plating from the inside of the M-16s RECEIVER to make it more reliable." He also knows that cops use "Down loaded ammo" to avoid lawsuits.

This guy owns several guns....I wonder if he has tried to modify any of them?

You just smile and walk away....and don't go to the range when he is there

 

[marv]

Personally I see nothing wrong with removing the front of the trigger guard of a D A O revo with an 8-12 lb trigger pull. Can anyone tell me what would cause such a gun to fire short of deliberately pulling the trigger?

 

[Nom de Forum]

Personally I see nothing wrong with removing the front of the trigger guard of a D A O revo with an 8-12 lb trigger pull. Can anyone tell me what would cause such a gun to fire short of deliberately pulling the trigger?

Yes, I can tell you. Under extreme stress or distraction the lack of the front of a trigger guard could result in an ND during a forceful re-holstering. Holster straps inside trigger guards have caused triggers to be pulled. A botched re-holstering that caused the trigger to hit the holster edge can cause a trigger to be pulled. Both of these situations are much more likely during movement that requires the use of both hands but can happen when merely careless.