The most dangerous alteration you've seen?

[ljnowell]

Yes, I can tell you. Under extreme stress or distraction the lack of the front of a trigger guard could result in an ND during a forceful re-holstering. Holster straps inside trigger guards have caused triggers to be pulled. A botched re-holstering that caused the trigger to hit the holster edge can cause a trigger to be pulled. Both of these situations are much more likely during movement that requires the use of both hands but can happen when merely careless.

Not real likely on a double action revolver.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

Has anyone considered what the result would be should the unsupported end of a "Fitz modified" revolver were to come in to harsh contact with a car hood, bar counter, or a mook's noggin?

Likely that it could tie up the action so that the revolver could become inoperative, which might kinda mess up one's day when dealing with armed criminals.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Not real likely on a double action revolver.

Let me put this into perspective for you.

Impossible-------------Not real likely---------------------Certainty of occurrence
No discharge-----------Inevitable Negligent Discharge--Inevitably gunshot death

“Not real likely” just isn’t good enough when you consider the possible severity of the consequences. What makes you think the inadvertent application of 8-12 pounds of pressure on an exposed trigger from a foreign object is particularly difficult to initiate?

 

[ljnowell]

Let me put this into perspective for you.



Impossible-------------Not real likely---------------------Certainty of occurrence

No discharge-----------Inevitable Negligent Discharge--Inevitably gunshot death



“Not real likely” just isn’t good enough when you consider the possible severity of the consequences. What makes you think the inadvertent application of 8-12 pounds of pressure on an exposed trigger from a foreign object is particularly difficult to initiate?

What makes you think it is real likely? Surely you have TONS of articles about this happening back in the day? As many as were sold there must have been ONE at least that we can read about. No? Hmmm. Seems not real likely.

It's pretty apparent your views on it. That doesn't make you right. I bet you get all heated up about a pinned grip safety on a 1911 too, right?

 

[45_auto]

What makes you think it is real likely? Surely you have TONS of articles about this happening back in the day? As many as were sold there must have been ONE at least that we can read about. No? Hmmm. Seems not real likely.

Actually, it is VERY likely to happen, and it DID happen very often "back in the day".

The reason you can't easily find articles on it is because the day of the revolver was "pre-internet", back when you had to subscribe to one of the law enforcement trade magazines for that kind of info. For example, the NYPD started publishing annual shooting incident reports back in 1982, started issuing semiautos in 1992, but the earliest available shooting incident report on the web is 1997.

Since you're looking for articles, you can see from the NYPD report (pic of 2011 table attached below) that about 20% of all NYPD shooting incidents are actually ND's. That statistic has been relatively consistent since the reports started being published in 1982. Since 1992, they've been carrying semi-autos with 12 pound triggers, not much different than a revolver.

The only one that I'm aware of that managed to kill himself with an ND was Frank Golden in 1947. Most likely he was using a revolver at the time.

http://nypd.police-memorial.com/list-of-nypd-fallen-heroes/

You can find the reports that are available on the web here:

http://guides.lib.jjay.cuny.edu/NYPDStatistics

Some of the earlier reports (no shooting statistics) are pretty funny. For example, in the 1921 report on page 99 it shows that there were 57 complaints investigated against fortunetellers, and 40 of those were unfounded. Does that mean that 40 out of 57 fortunetellers are telling you the truth about your future?

 

[Nom de Forum]

What makes you think it is real likely? Surely you have TONS of articles about this happening back in the day? As many as were sold there must have been ONE at least that we can read about. No? Hmmm. Seems not real likely.

It's pretty apparent your views on it. That doesn't make you right. I bet you get all heated up about a pinned grip safety on a 1911 too, right?

As 45_Auto mentioned documentation of NDs from Fitz Specials is virtually nonexistent. This is not because they did not happen, but because of the characteristics of the historical period that this modification was used by a limited amount of people.

The rational for the Fitz Special is easier access to the trigger when the pistol is in a pocket and increased speed of firing the first shot. Unless a shooter has unusually large fingers or is wearing gloves a trigger guard on a Colt revolver does not impede trigger access. If removal of the front of a trigger guard provided any increase in the speed of firing the first shot this modification would have been used and continue to be used by the fastest shooters in the World. Ed McGivern and Bill Jordan, two of the fastest revolver shooters in history, were active when Fitz Specials were a fad. They did not use revolvers missing the front of the trigger guard. Jordan did thin the front of the guard on his firing hand’s side. Jordan is known to have begun pulling the trigger even before clearing the holster to increase his speed. If removing the front of the trigger guard provided more speed it is probable he would have used this modification to increase speed. Any advantage in first shot speed the Fitz Special’s cut-away trigger guard offered existed only in the minds of the people who used them.


Heated up about pinned grip safeties? No, I only feel surprise that there are people who still pin grip safeties when there are grip safety designs that make pinning unnecessary. Personally I never needed to pin a 1911 grip safety because my grip always deactivated the grip safety.

 

[Zach S]

“Not real likely” just isn’t good enough when you consider the possible severity of the consequences.

Agreed. If this mentality applied to everything, I doubt most of us would CC, keep a spare tire in the car, or fire extinguisher in the kitchen...

The odds are low, but the stakes are high.

 

[larry_minn]

Lets see. AMMO. Had a cousin want to shoot his Security Six at my range. I remarked it was rather loud. Then he goes over to wood post and BEATS the cylinder against it to pop it out, then the rod to eject empties. (winds up using pocket knife to remove them one by one) :0 :0

He asks if I want to shoot some of his RELOADED "full house mags" in my S&W 66-2. I decline. Seems a buddy of his reloaded them for him.......... Talk about over pressure...


At a range guy had a Carbon AR-15 he added a "happy switch" to. I have vidio tape of him shooting it. (it was 9mm upper) Well it turned to DUST. Looked like a well hit clay pigion. He was not hurt. Said he was going to put factory innards in and send it back. (he claimed it was legal happy switch)

Neighbor did the 20 guage in 12 guage, then 12 guage. Peeled barrel back/minor cuts.

Action shooting group I was with had "that guy" with frankenstine 1911. Always issues and he lost all sense (what little he had) when it failed.

One night I was RO and at buzzer his 1911 (with pinned safety) FTF. He rotates it 90 degrees and keeps pulling trigger. I am YELLING "DOWNRANGE, keep muzzle downrange" until he puts rd into wall.
So he got kicked out for another month. Thing is his FIL was one main folks.... and you HOPE to educate the fool.

He also told us his custom AR went full auto after he built it. (and had his GF fire first shot (excuse me first 30 shots) from it. He was upset he got banned from that range for life.

 

[ljnowell]

Actually, it is VERY likely to happen, and it DID happen very often "back in the day".

The reason you can't easily find articles on it is because the day of the revolver was "pre-internet", back when you had to subscribe to one of the law enforcement trade magazines for that kind of info. For example, the NYPD started publishing annual shooting incident reports back in 1982, started issuing semiautos in 1992, but the earliest available shooting incident report on the web is 1997.

Since you're looking for articles, you can see from the NYPD report (pic of 2011 table attached below) that about 20% of all NYPD shooting incidents are actually ND's. That statistic has been relatively consistent since the reports started being published in 1982. Since 1992, they've been carrying semi-autos with 12 pound triggers, not much different than a revolver.

The only one that I'm aware of that managed to kill himself with an ND was Frank Golden in 1947. Most likely he was using a revolver at the time.

http://nypd.police-memorial.com/list-of-nypd-fallen-heroes/

You can find the reports that are available on the web here:

http://guides.lib.jjay.cuny.edu/NYPDStatistics

Some of the earlier reports (no shooting statistics) are pretty funny. For example, in the 1921 report on page 99 it shows that there were 57 complaints investigated against fortunetellers, and 40 of those were unfounded. Does that mean that 40 out of 57 fortunetellers are telling you the truth about your future?

And not a single one related to a fitz special. All pointless links that have nothing to do with it.

 

[45_auto]

And not a single one related to a fitz special. All pointless links that have nothing to do with it.

Your claim was not specific to Fitz Specials. You claimed that a double action revolver was not real likely to discharge on reholstering with a finger on the trigger. Or did you miss Post #76 where you stated that?

Not real likely on a double action revolver.

Should be pretty obvious to anyone that if people have trouble with ND's from revolvers with full trigger guards, then a Fitz Special would make it even worse. Thanks for providing confirmation of my signature line!

 

[Nom de Forum]

And not a single one related to a fitz special. All pointless links that have nothing to do with it.

Do yourself a favor by no longer defending your comments on the Fitz Special. Some things are so obvious to knowledgeable people that continuing to express doubt about them indicates not just ignorance but obstinate foolishness. .45_auto is a very knowledgeable person who has probably forgot more about pistols than most people and still knows more about them than most people on THR.

 

[Mountainman38]

...If a gun is not what you want when you buy it, buy a different one. People think they are so much smarter than the gun manufacturer...

Disagree. Don't be unsafe with your modifications, but I changed the barrel, recoil pad, trigger, and the recoil buffer pin on my 10/22, and it's galaxies better now.

 

[Cee Zee]

...If a gun is not what you want when you buy it, buy a different one. People think they are so much smarter than the gun manufacturer...

Does that include changing stocks? Barrels? Putting in triggers that are made by reputable companies? Changing recoil springs to a slightly stiffer strength? I have seen some real bubba jobs done on guns and some of them were totally unsafe. But to dismiss all alterations out of hand doesn't seen logical to me. I sure wouldn't want to go back to the original trigger on my Marlin 60. The new one is smoother and has a better surface area that contacts my finger. It made the gun shoot more accurate too. But I have an even better example. I put a firing pin replacement in my SKS that was made by Murray's Gunsmithing. Is Murray smarter than the gun maker? You bet he is. His firing pin and the spring that goes with it prevents slam fires which of course can make your SKS fire like a machine gun until the mag is emptied. Not only is that extremely dangerous but it can result in a 10 year vacation at Club Fed. Some alterations make more than good sense. They save lives.

 

[ljnowell]

Do yourself a favor by no longer defending your comments on the Fitz Special. Some things are so obvious to knowledgeable people that continuing to express doubt about them indicates not just ignorance but obstinate foolishness. .45_auto is a very knowledgeable person who has probably forgot more about pistols than most people and still knows more about them than most people on THR.

Typical. If all else fails be insulting. I never insulted him but simply because he has knowledge of a subject does not make his opinion infallible in this discussion. We are not talking about the technical aspects of a pistol, merely opinions on modifications.

It's apparent though that you cannot discuss anything in an adult manner so I won't bother commenting on the subject again.

 

[larry_minn]

I recall taking a class from a retired Police Officer. At one time he was working off duty/in uniform at major shopping center. (allowed by dept)

He had a on duty shooting and like two days later at his off duty job he hears "He's got a gun" and screaming. He sees a guy with TWO pistols running thru store. He really didn't want a 2nd shooting in same week so he waited and smashed the guy with his revolver. Guy goes down, problem solved.

Seems guy stole the guns from a sporting goods store and was making his escape (so they were NOT LOADED) Thing is if he had not knocked the guy silly and guns had been loaded.... His gun was non-functional. Seems he "thinned" the trigger guard and it BENT IN so trigger was bound.

So if you cut the thing..... No thanks.

 

[PowerG]

Well, since the statute of limitations ran out long ago...when I was a teenager I was gifted a Marlin Model 60 that had become unreliable due to an astronomically high round count and a complete absence of any sort of maintenance. By stoning the rails in the receiver I got the thing where it would work most of the time. In the process of taking it apart and putting it back together many times I gained a minute knowledge of how it worked, and how it could be "modified" in a certain way without permanent alteration, if you get my drift, by making a part out of a piece of sheet metal. After a couple of very rapid intentional unloadings out of hearing of the house I had an unintentional one in the back yard when I neglected to correctly re-install the original disconnector, at which point the gun was confiscated by a parent who didn't much appreciate my early engineering efforts. It was fun while it lasted.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

Neighbor did the 20 guage in 12 guage, then 12 guage. Peeled barrel back/minor cuts.

The old 20-12 bang! I saw this happen years ago. A guy with a pump must have mixed up his shells when he was throwing clay. He pulled the trigger and the 20 ga went bang but lodged down the barrel. He racked it and pulled the trigger... BANG! He had some minor injuries. It certainly scared the crap out of everyone in his group of shooters.

I took my hunters safety course close to 25 years ago, but I vaguely remember my instructor bringing up the 20-12 bang. Does anyone know if they still talk to the students about it?

Anyway, back on topic. The worst mods I have seen are guys doing their own trigger jobs when they have no business working on anything mechanical. Also the idiots that put zip ties in their AK's to get them to go "full auto."

 

[B!ngoFuelUSN]

It's kind of like Ebola, except it's e Bubba. Why people have to go and stick their hands into things that they know nothing about, has always amazed me.
It's like when the car won't start, and they open the hood, and stare at 10 thousand dollars worth of steel parts, and computers, as if somehow it's magically going to work with a tap here or there. Guns will bite you if you mess with them, even just a little bit.
Dremmels and grinders have no place in the hands of anyone who hasn't honed their skills over years of small supervised steps.
Anything that shoots a bullet should not be played with by those not familiar with how they work.
I worked with machinery my whole life, but not guns. If it's gun related I take it to a gunsmith, unless it's a drop in part. Even then sometimes they aren't exactly "drop in". As much as fit first.

This sounds like the most accurate generalization one could make about where and where not to mod a gun. For example:
Adding tritium sights to my H&K? - no problem
Converting my H&K from SA/DA to LEM with a factory parts kit? - pretty straightforward and safe;
Adding a new muzzle device; light and laser; curb feelers and fuzzy dice? - knock yourself out;
Swapping out the stock trigger in an M&P to an Apex kit? - likely just fine
But where things get hinky is when you pull out the dremel, grinder, sand paper or stone and head straight in to the fire control system? - no, not I
And turning down the trigger weight screw in a Tikka (or equivalent) to 2lbs or less, all to ensure a more accurate shot when you go hunting? - bad idea
And finally, reconfiguring a gun via the grinding or milling method to fire a round that it was not initially designed for? - Just Say No
So there really are not hard and fast rules here. But it doesn't take a lot of common sense to know the limits of both the gun and the person modifying it (often yourself).
B

 

[Elkins45]

Friend of mine in high school had a marlin goose gun that he altered so that it fired when you closed the bolt.

Good God. And the point of this was what exactly?

I strongly suspect this outcome was unintentional.

 

[george burns]

Selling a perfect 1911 commander in stainless to your best friend, because he was hawking you for it, Only to find out that he took a grinder to it and decided to alter the finish to a chromed look. It's a good thing he sold it to another idiot or I may have shot him in the foot for ruining a perfect 1911 Colt. Or having a so called gunsmith put a dovetail S&W sight on a perfect 1976 model PPK's, thinking he was doing you a favor, also removing the pin that acts as a loaded chamber indicator because, "you don't need that". He was a German who only sold Walthers, so I never thought he would be that stupid, but I get proven wrong all the time.

 

[dancitizen]

I will concede that you might get away with firing Supers for a while in a Tokarev, provided you got around the dimensional issues I brought forth in my last post, provided they were the weak factory loaded stuff that passes for Super ammo today. I don't think the gun would hold up for very long.

But the post mentioned 9X23 Winchesters. That round is basically a 223 rifle case cut down and loaded to rifle pressures, over 50,000 pounds per square inch. No Tokarev would survive those kind of pressures. Nothing against the Tokarev, they are a brilliant design and I own two, both Czech. A Zastava 7.62 X 25 surplus and an M-70 in 9MM.

I knew a kid in High School that swore all up and down that he loaded his Trapdoor Springfield with "A hundred grains of Bullseye and a 500 grain bullet"

When you hear stuff like that all you can do is smile and turn away...

Tokarevs are routinely converted to a variety of calibers, both factory and wildcat. Like the 1911 the action design itself is sufficiently strong to handle even the 9x23 winchester, the point of failure being the case.

This is of course being dependent upon the donor weapon being of sufficient quality, such as a Zastava or Polish manufacture.

The recipe for 9x23 is a 7.62x25 frame and slide coupled with a donor barrel from a 9mm. The recoil spring is changed as well. If you want to use very hot 9x23 you have to use a custom barrel that has more support via a reduced feed ramp.

.38 super is a mere barrel and spring change for a 7.62x25 model and in the past has been a factory option caliber popular in South America. They have no trouble handling a steady diet of heavy loads.

Because these guns are not as popular in the USA and because much of the imports seen there are chinese, there is a general lack of knowledge. Much how in many Eastern countries the 1911 family is generally thought to be fragile and unsuitable for customizing because what they see is left over Korean war surplus and shoddy Pakistani knockoffs.

 

[scythefwd]

THe cut trigger guard from fitz was to allow for quick pull of the trigger when wearing gloves in a new york winter...

 

[Chisos]

Whitman was killed with a 12 gauge shotgun by Houston McCoy, and the Beretta 92 didn't exist in 1966.

Whitman had my middle sister pinned behind a flag pole base at the bottom of the tower. My oldest sister had just ran into her sorority house on University when he killed a man who was on their sidewalk. I remember that day well.

 

[GLOOB]

About the silliest thing that I have personally had my hands on was a .38 'belly gun' that had had the hammer spur 'bobbed'. If you really worked at it, one could, with difficulty cock the abbreviated hammer to the single action position. After that, the only way to uncock was by firing or disasembly.

If it had a working transfer bar safety and no half cock notch, it could have been decocked without firing. I wouldn't trust the internal safety 100%, though.

 

[JBrady555]

I always thought 'Release Triggers' favored by some Trap Shooters years ago was a dangerous idea.

You load the gun, pull the trigger, and nothing happened.

Until you released pressure with the trigger finger.
And the gun fires!

I guess it was alright if you knew it had one.
And could overcome a lifetime of ingrained shooting habits to learn to use one.

But to the uninformed, finding Granddads old Model 12 trap gun has a release trigger installed in it is a real eye opener!rc

What's even worse is having a over and under setup with a release/pull trigger. Bottom barrel release trigger, top barrel pull trigger. I knew a old trap shooter at our club with a perrazzi setup this way. He shot doubles with it, I never could get used to it. Boy he was fast, lol.