The myth on not saving when hand loading 9mm ammo.

[GeoDudeFlorida]

It's like the fast food phenomenon. Nobody has time to cook a meal anymore. Let someone else do it for you for starvation wages.

That’s the analogy I used, as well. The “you can’t do it,” crowd is comparing the price of a cheap drive through burger (of dubious quality and origin) to the cost of grilling a prime filet, complete with farm produce and fresh baked rolls at home. It doesn’t cost that much to do dishes, folks!
If I take the time to go to the farmers market on Wednesdays I can get cryowrapped whole tenders for $2.50/# I know how to butcher a cow; trimming a filet just isn’t that much work. Unless you don’t know how and don’t own a decent knife.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Back when I lived in Maryland, I spent a fortune on duck hunting (which is common there, and I didn't even buy a boat!). One day I "ran the numbers", and it worked out to around $100 per duck.

Now I live in central KY, where access to duck hunting is extremely limited, and half my attic is full of duck and goose decoys, layout blinds, etc....new in box....my multiple sets of waders are slowly dry-rotting in the garage....

People who fish for salmon are the same way around here. A friend of mine who purchased a 30K boat figured his price for a salmon he caught was about $500. He said the price will go down in a few more years however.

 

[Soonerpesek]

test them before loading all.

Isn’t that SOP….?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Isn’t that SOP….?

That was my first thought also. I've been loading RMR 124gr Matchwinners (MW) for ages and recently changed over to 147gr H(eavy)MW to accommodate a different barrel. My regular MW OAL is 1.114". Loading the HMW to that OAL didn't come anywhere close to passing a "plunk" test...I only loaded 3 test rounds to allow for variations. Comparing the profile of the MW and HMW showed that the issue pretty obvious. Had to press them down to 1.08" to get a clean plunk...pretty easy to pull 3 bullets.

Another thing to keep in mind if you like to load "Factory Seconds" is that you shouldn't use them to develop loads...there is a reason they are "Seconds". Not to throw shade on RMR 2nds as I've even used them to win matches...they really are that good

 

[n2omike]

Good lord, horses are a bottomless hole you just shovel cash into. My daughter rode and competed from 5 to 18.

One of my rules in life when I was single... was to never date/marry a horse woman! You'll always come second to the horse, and will mainly be there for the paycheck and all the caretaking! LOL

This being said, I've always been into racing... which also has a way of consuming a TON of time and cash!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

One of my rules in life when I was single... was to never date/marry a horse woman! You'll always come second to the horse, and will mainly be there for the paycheck and all the caretaking! LOL

This being said, I've always been into racing... which also has a way of consuming a TON of time and cash!

I married a quilter.
Nuff said.

 

[BreechFace]

I married a quilter.
Nuff said.

She may quilt you into the poor house but at least you’ll be warm

 

[tightgroup tiger]

How much do you people pay yourselves to go to a movie? How much do you pay yourselves for taking care of your kids?
I don't know how you can afford to cook your own meals at charging yourself $100.00/hr. My God, you'd starve to death. You'd have to eat at a restaurant every night.

How do you afford to pay yourself to shoot. You better quit before you go broke.

I don't understand this paying yourself thing. Like someone else said, unless your reloading is taking you away from working for money, your time has no value. It's the time you have to do what you want, when you want. If you don't want to reload, then don't, but I must ask, why are you posting here if you don't,

Do you pay yourself to take a shower, eat your meals, go shopping, How much do you pay yourself an hour for sleeping?

And I don't want to hear about people that don't have time to relaod, I work 12 hr days and I still find the time to do it. When I do find the time I make it count.

I don't figure how much money is lost because of what my time is worth. I figure how much I saved because of money I don't have to pay out.
That means I'm working for myself and my pay is the $4.00 a box for every box of 9mm I don't have to buy.

My Hornady press will load 600/hr. So in an hour's time I'm loading 12 boxes of ammo at a savings of $4.00/box = $48.00/hr I'm making by loading my own 9mm's.


At 2 boxed a week, I'm paying myself $416.00 a year for a very part time job of loading the 9mm. Add .357mag, 327FM, 243 Win, 308 Win, 30-06 Spring, 8mm Mauser and whatever else I load for, my part time wage keeps going up higher and higher.

I can't afford not to reload.

And, I control the quality and the recipe, so I get what I want when I want it, vs having to suffer with what an ammo company tells me I am going to shoot, or I don't shoot at all.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

How much do you people pay yourselves to go to a movie? How much do you pay yourselves for taking care of your kids?
I don't know how you can afford to cook your own meals at charging yourself $100.00/hr. My God, you'd starve to death. You'd have to eat at a restaurant every night.

How do you afford to pay yourself to shoot. You better quit before you go broke.

I don't understand this paying yourself thing. Like someone else said, unless your reloading is taking you away from working for money, your time has no value. It's the time you have to do what you want, when you want. If you don't want to reload, then don't, but I must ask, why are you posting here if you don't,

Do you pay yourself to take a shower, eat your meals, go shopping, How much do you pay yourself an hour for sleeping?

And I don't want to hear about people that don't have time to relaod, I work 12 hr days and I still find the time to do it. When I do find the time I make it count.

I don't figure how much money is lost because of what my time is worth. I figure how much I saved because of money I don't have to pay out.
That means I'm working for myself and my pay is the $4.00 a box for every box of 9mm I don't have to buy.

My Hornady press will load 600/hr. So in an hour's time I'm loading 12 boxes of ammo at a savings of $4.00/box = $48.00/hr I'm making by loading my own 9mm's.


At 2 boxed a week, I'm paying myself $416.00 a year for a very part time job of loading the 9mm. Add .357mag, 327FM, 243 Win, 308 Win, 30-06 Spring, 8mm Mauser and whatever else I load for, my part time wage keeps going up higher and higher.

I can't afford not to reload.

And, I control the quality and the recipe, so I get what I want when I want it, vs having to suffer with what an ammo company tells me I am going to shoot, or I don't shoot at all.

Example: I bought a thousand .357” Winchester Kinetic HE 110gr JHP projectiles to load my own anti-aggressive critter .38’s. At 16-cents per + the cost of primers (I’m still using 1-1/2-cent Clinton-era CCI 500’s and Remington 1-1/2’s) + brass (free) and 6 or so grains each of W231 I bought for $15/#, I’m so far below the cost of factory ammo (a buck a pop when they were still available) it’s not even worth calculating my labor cost.

 

[PWC]

There is a corollary thought here.....

If you live in GA and want to go to Montana for an elk hunt; there is the out of state permit, round trip airfare, cost of a guide; should include horses, pack animal, food, all camping requirements for a week, car fare. If you buy a new rifle and scope for the hunt (I read about this as a major guide complaint), new wardrobe for expected climate, shipping butchered frozen meat home, that elk burger or steak could cost you upwards of $100 a pound.

If you own/lease land locally, your xisting wardrobe is probably sufficient, and your xisting firearms are probably sufficient. Still have to have the permit/tag. Maybe, a motel. But more "exotic" meat than is available in Piggly Wiggly or Safeway, may cost more than old dead cow or pig.

So, what is the price you set on your "fun"? This is not a criticism because when I hunted, I do understand. Just now I'm older, it's easier to go to Piggly Wiggly or Safeway and I don't have to worry about Bubba with a gun.

 

[cfullgraf]

I’m a tool junkie. I won’t go into the shop tools I have that many would not consider buying. But, since I enjoy reloading I have enjoyed experimenting with lots of different reloading gear. Almost all of it I still have and use. Many of the gear I’ve a niche use gir and makes a particular task/cartridge easier to load.

But, putting a cost to an event, I bought a new tractor 10-12 years ago primarily to handle the pallets of hay I get each year. It also has a quick change front end loader attachment so I can change to a bucket from the pallet forks.

Since I have horses, I elected to buy the back hoe attachment for the tractor so, among other tasks, I could bury the horses when we lose one.

We’ve buried 6 horses since I got the tractor, 2 of ours, 4 belonged to friends. For a $4200 attachment, we are down to “$700” per burial.

Our friends appreciated the loan of the tractor to take care of their loved ones at a bargain price, aka $0.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I’m a tool junkie. I won’t go into the shop tools I have that many would not consider buying. But, since I enjoy reloading I have enjoyed experimenting with lots of different reloading gear. Almost all if it I still have and use. Many of the gear I’ve a niche use gir and makes a particular task/cartridge easier to load.

But, putting a cost to an event, I bought a new tractor 10-12 years ago primarily to handle the pallets of hay I get each year. It also has a quick change front end loader attachment so I can change to a bucket from the pallet forks.

Since I have horses, I elected to buy the back hoe attachment for the tractor so, among other tasks, I could bury the horses when we lose one.

We’ve buried 6 horses since I got the tractor, 2 of ours, 4 belonged to friends. For a $4200 attachment, we are down to “$700” per burial.

Our friends appreciated the loan of the tractor to take care of their loved ones at a bargain price, aka $0.

It’s sad when a horse dies. More sad than people dying.

 

[Highland Lofts]

I'm glad you people don't reloading because your time is to valuable, it leaves more reloading items for us that do reloading for one reason or another.

I'll tell you one reason I reload is I can load what ever I want when I whan to.
Remember going to cabelas and the ammo shelves were completely bare and you had to find something else to do?
Well guess what, we were still shooting at day, every day.

 

[armoredman]

It is easy to claim savings when a critical component (labor) is assigned no $ value or costs


What you save in actual dollars costs you in time, effort, knowledge, wear and tear, etc.

For me, my time is worth more than any savings of reloading.

In that case absolutely any hobby that doesn't provide instant positive financial feedback to you is a worthless waste of time.
Time - I spend maybe an hour in the reloading room every couple of days. If I wasn't in there, I'd be watching TV, sleeping, spending money, etc.
Knowledge - not sure what you mean by this, but if you mean I'm not studying for my BAR exam or next degree, you're right - I'm not. I've a few years before retirement - professional growth is NOT a real problem for me. I do gain knowledge of my firearms and what they like to shoot with every handload rolled, for instance, yesterday to my chagrin my Uberti 3.5" Cattleman II Birdshead likes XTPs over my hand cast LRN or SWC bullets. Bummer, but good to know so I move my data search in another direction.
Wear and tear - on what, me? WAY too late for that! Between the military and 22 years of working in prisons, I think I'm dang near worn out already. However, the physical parts of reloading are VERY slight, to be honest, most is done sitting down!
On the equipment? Been using the same single stage press for almost 20 years, and it was built in 1982. I think I can safely amortize it down to zero. Even my 6 cavity Lee mold that I finally retired gave me THOUSANDS of bullets before it gave up the ghost. Wear and tear on the gun? Is it not there to be shot? If you just like safe queens and wall hangers, hey, that's cool, saves you every single dollar on ammo possible by never shooting a single round. I know a person with a commemorative Colt SAA that has never been fired and never will - it will be perfectly preserved for when she dies and the next family member inherits it.
You don't need reasons to not reload, if it's not for you, that's totally cool, saves components for me and my kind. No worries whatsoever, but no need to make stuff up, man. Just say it's not your bag and leave it at that, we understand completely. For instance, I know every step on how to change the oil in my car - I will always pay someone else to do that, because crawling around under a car "ain't my bag, man. "

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

In that case absolutely any hobby that doesn't provide instant positive financial feedback to you is a worthless waste of time.
Time - I spend maybe an hour in the reloading room every couple of days. If I wasn't in there, I'd be watching TV, sleeping, spending money, etc.
Knowledge - not sure what you mean by this, but if you mean I'm not studying for my BAR exam or next degree, you're right - I'm not. I've a few years before retirement - professional growth is NOT a real problem for me. I do gain knowledge of my firearms and what they like to shoot with every handload rolled, for instance, yesterday to my chagrin my Uberti 3.5" Cattleman II Birdshead likes XTPs over my hand cast LRN or SWC bullets. Bummer, but good to know so I move my data search in another direction.
Wear and tear - on what, me? WAY too late for that! Between the military and 22 years of working in prisons, I think I'm dang near worn out already. However, the physical parts of reloading are VERY slight, to be honest, most is done sitting down!
On the equipment? Been using the same single stage press for almost 20 years, and it was built in 1982. I think I can safely amortize it down to zero. Even my 6 cavity Lee mold that I finally retired gave me THOUSANDS of bullets before it gave up the ghost. Wear and tear on the gun? Is it not there to be shot? If you just like safe queens and wall hangers, hey, that's cool, saves you every single dollar on ammo possible by never shooting a single round. I know a person with a commemorative Colt SAA that has never been fired and never will - it will be perfectly preserved for when she dies and the next family member inherits it.
You don't need reasons to not reload, if it's not for you, that's totally cool, saves components for me and my kind. No worries whatsoever, but no need to make stuff up, man. Just say it's not your bag and leave it at that, we understand completely. For instance, I know every step on how to change the oil in my car - I will always pay someone else to do that, because crawling around under a car "ain't my bag, man. "

When I traded my truck in the salesman popped the hood on the station wagon I was getting. He proudly showed me the intake cover and cooling system. I’m sure there’s a motor in there somewhere. Don’t care. I pay the dealership shop to take care of it for me.

I turned a wrench building hot bikes and oval track cars as a kid. It didn’t pay as well working in restaurants. But it was fun, then. Now it’s just another annoying part of modern life.

I’d rather spend my time reloading than changing spark plugs.

 

[armoredman]

This the big thing for me as well. Im either shooting 147s at 980fps or 124s at 1200fps. General run of the mill loadings from wherever are not what Im looking for and are not inexpensive when you want certain things. The thing is? Even the loads I want and I load are still cheaper than cheap ball ammo.

You can buy once fired 9mm brass for 2-4 cents a pop all day long depending on how much you want. And if you shoot at the right range, you can get all you can pickup for free. Thats how I built my stash of 20000+ 9mm cases, picking them up one at a time for about 5 years. Thankfully I had young kids that liked shooting. The real killer is primer prices right now. 10 cents a pop used to be what I was loading an entire round for 4-5 years ago. Bullets have gone up, but RMR and HiTek coated bullets are still decently cheap and accurate.

Time? Time is what you value it at. I can tell you right now Im not loading pistol ammo on a single stage, guys do it, I simply cannot. I would estimate that just my 9mm reloading alone has paid for my LnL AP (with case and bullet feeder) and Lee APP twice over. We wont even talk about 1000s of rounds of 300 BO subs, MK 262 MOD-1 clones, or M80 ball clones I load every year in that equipment payoff estimation. Im not fully automated, so I still pull the handle for every round, but Im loading at 600 rounds an hour pretty easily on the LnL, and decapping at 1500 or more rounds an hour on the APP. Lets say I value my time at $30 an hour which works out at about 5 cents a round when loading, and 2 cents when decapping, Im only "spending" 7 cents a round on each loaded round.

The math works out like this if you include once fired brass and time at $30 an hour:
7 cents for labor
3 cents for case
8 cents for bullet
10 cents for primer
4 cents for powder

32 cents a round for either a 147 sub or a fast 124 that you might be able to buy for double that price if youre lucky. I am probably seeing savings of a minimum of 20 cents a round and 70 on the top end as Im looking at +P 124s, or subsonic 147s.

The point here is that if you want to save money on 9mm? You cant do it on a single stage if you are going to start factoring in time as a value in the cost equation. You probably need to be able to load at least 300, maybe 400 an hour to make it pay. If you start loading 9mm at 600+, you will definitely pay off the equipment needed based on how much you shoot per year.

Hmm, let's try this one...we'll go with the one everyone says it is not economical to make, 9mm.
Labor - $0. Why? If I want to make money, I'll go work overtime. This is a hobby.
Brass - $0. A buddy works on local ranges and brings me bucketloads of brass every so often. Still working on the last one from two years ago.
Bullet - wait for it - not QUITE zero, but close, the cost of the electricity for the lead pot and the powder coating oven. Maybe $.25 per thousand? Wild arsed guess, of course.
Primers - don't move, but....$0. Why? My wife bought me a thousand and a buddy bought me three thousand recently - they really like going out shooting with my handloads. Now if we go with the ones I did buy, that's about $8 per hundred, pretty stiff, so we'll call it $.08 per round.
Powder - ya got me. Home made black powder does NOT work in 9mm, and my pistols have a hankerin' for Accurate Number 2. Last time I bought a pound it was $35, roughly, IIRC. So, 7000 grains per pound, 3.6 grains per load, say, $.018, or more reasonable 2 cents per round.
That comes up to...10 cents a round. IF we use my primers. $5 per 50. I'm good with that, especially since I really don't care what I spend on my hobby.
Speaking of black powder, I am thinking of shooting more of that, especially since I figured out how to make my own. Talk about a cheap shooting hobby, especially if you use a flintlock!

 

[P Flados]

I am retired and am physically limited such that one of my three planned hobbies went away two years ago. An additional hobby (camping) just did not work out. Both of our boys have gotten to where they do not spend much time with us and there are no grandkids. An unplanned hobby, gardening, has moved into the picture, but time spent has dropped off a lot from the first couple of years.

Reloading ammo, casting bullets and reloading primers are now valued distractions that I no longer worry about the time spent. Heck, even though I consider harvesting and processing range scrap into lead ingots to be "a chore", I have recently decided that I will no longer consider it worth monetizing the time spent.

I probably spent more on my casting gear than my regular reloading gear. However, most of the regular reloading gear was "essential" in that I like to shoot a lot of stuff where there is no over the counter ammo option. The 9mm is a minor part of my shooting hobby. The only gear investment I have specific to the 9mm is a set of dies purchased over a decade ago.

I have never purchased centerfire metallic ammo in the 50 years I have been shooting. The only brass I have purchased was 1 bag of 327 Fed from Starline.

I generally buy powder on-line in 4 jug or more batches such that hazmat and shipping are not that big of an addition. I did stock up before the last presidential election "just in case" and have not purchased any since. I had a decent stash of primers, but not enough. However, instead of paying the "new price point" I invested in equipment and supplies for reloading primers a little over a year ago.

If I charge myself $0.20/lb for processing range scrap into bullets and if I use replacement costs for my powder, I am still at under $0.03 per round for my 9mm with powder being over half of the cost. My 32s come out real close to $0.01 per round.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Hmm, let's try this one...we'll go with the one everyone says it is not economical to make, 9mm.
Labor - $0. Why? If I want to make money, I'll go work overtime. This is a hobby.
Brass - $0. A buddy works on local ranges and brings me bucketloads of brass every so often. Still working on the last one from two years ago.
Bullet - wait for it - not QUITE zero, but close, the cost of the electricity for the lead pot and the powder coating oven. Maybe $.25 per thousand? Wild arsed guess, of course.
Primers - don't move, but....$0. Why? My wife bought me a thousand and a buddy bought me three thousand recently - they really like going out shooting with my handloads. Now if we go with the ones I did buy, that's about $8 per hundred, pretty stiff, so we'll call it $.08 per round.
Powder - ya got me. Home made black powder does NOT work in 9mm, and my pistols have a hankerin' for Accurate Number 2. Last time I bought a pound it was $35, roughly, IIRC. So, 7000 grains per pound, 3.6 grains per load, say, $.018, or more reasonable 2 cents per round.
That comes up to...10 cents a round. IF we use my primers. $5 per 50. I'm good with that, especially since I really don't care what I spend on my hobby.
Speaking of black powder, I am thinking of shooting more of that, especially since I figured out how to make my own. Talk about a cheap shooting hobby, especially if you use a flintlock!

Have you seen the price of flints lately??!!

 

[armoredman]

Have you seen the price of flints lately??!!

No, no I haven't, don't have a flinter yet, BUT, I am working with a buddy on working up toy caps to work as percussion caps...seriously. Not QUITE there yet, but if it works...

With a regular percussion cap, but if we get these toy caps to work, the Hip Howitzer will see some serious range time!

 

[lordpaxman]

Wow…8 pages and still going!

To each his own.

 

[JEBruns]

Around here powder and primers are expensive and not always in stock. I saw 9¢ primers in Cabelas a few days ago and they weren't real deep on inventory. The powder situation was even worse with no selection and unbelievable prices.

Funny how much that varies. My local Bass Pro, which used to be a Cabela's before the buy out, has a lot of primers and a huge selection of powders and bullets. Not bargain prices, but at least it's there.

It's like the fast food phenomenon. Nobody has time to cook a meal anymore. Let someone else do it for you for starvation wages.

Starvation wages? Probably not the place for a discussion on that. But we rarely eat out. I like to cook.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Wow…8 pages and still going!

To each his own.

Discoveries take time. Throughout history we’ve seen that.

And we’ve discovered “Hobby Time.”

It’s limitless, boundless, all incompassing, cost free, defies any other law of nature, impedes the ability to reason or to count while at the same time not encroaching on other time, compels ignoring former understanding of time’s limitations.

It’s truly a marvel. It’s the anti-artificial intelligence. Indeed, it’s anti-intelligence itself.

(Sarcasm, obviously, since you know we’ve learned absolutely nothing.)

 

[jmorris]

I don't understand this paying yourself thing. Like someone else said, unless your reloading is taking you away from working for money, your time has no value.

I think it has value to me, that value depends on what I use it for.

Sitting and thinking has always been more valuable to me than just sitting. Lots of people just like to do nothing though or at least nothing productive, including me sometimes. I just can’t sit still as long as they can.

 

[higgite]

Wow…8 pages and still going!

Yeah, and at least half of it is on topic.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I think it has value to me, that value depends on what I use it for.

Sitting and thinking has always been more valuable to me than just sitting. Lots of people just like to do nothing though or at least nothing productive, including me sometimes. I just can’t sit still as long as they can.

NEW THREAD—

Topic: What is or isn’t productive?

Reading a book? But for the second time?

Watching a movie? But on Hallmark channel?

Buying 100 rounds? Or loading 100 rounds?

Unloading 100 rounds?

BTW, you can’t sit and NOT think. You may think you’re not thinking but that’s thinking.

In addition to time, to be accurate your reloading costs have to include costs of all equipment. Unless it’s hobby equipment then its cost free.