the new(ish) H&K 416-what makes it so reliable?

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Skillet

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okay so i have heard about this hk 416, and it looks like any other AR 15 or M4 or M16, but what makes it so much more reliable than those relatively jammer guns?
different firing mechanisms or something?
looser fit?
enlighten me.
and please tell me how whatever makes it more reliable works, i would like to know.
thanks!
 
the wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_HK416

the most important change is designing the bolt around the gas piston system instead of a retrofit kit...this keeps the hot gases that normally cycle the bolt out of the chamber thus making cleaning easier and less stress on the components. It's basically the same, otherwise.
 
The HK 416 uses a short-stroke piston driving an operating rod instead of DI like the AR.
 
Its a gas piston rifle, not a direct impingement rifle. Several companies make gas piston AR variants now. The best are systems designed for the rifle not retrofit kits that are sold to be installed in 15-30 minutes at home.
I personally like my gas piston AR.
 
Like it all you want it still isn't more reliable.
Yeah, but it doesn't have to be cleaned after each round. :neener: I think with a good design it is much more reliable. :)
 
i just wonder how long they last without being cleaned before they have any problems...can u dump out thousands of rounds and be fine?
 
I saw a bunch of "operators" carrying brand new HK416's in the mess hall here at Camp Cupcake Iraq. The rifles looked brand new and were very short barreled. The guys carrying them looked like they escaped from middle school. Man, I am getting old!!
 
This video sums it up for me.

Yes it does for me also, if you watch it closly you see that the firer allows the water to drain out of the barrel before he fires the HK, but he keeps the muzzle angled upward to keep the water in the barrel when he fires the AR.
I am an HK owner (91,93,MP5) and I love thier wepons but this test video is a very glorified and edited sales pitch, I do not know of any automatic rifles that will fire a round with the barrel full of water and not have some sort of failure. And on the reliability note my Colt A2, in excess of 5000 rounds since 1988 and only two detail strips other than the obligitory wipe down and brush out after a day at the range,"0" failures.:neener:


This is this! It's not something else, it's this!

ALWAYS REMEMBER OUR MEN AND WOMEN OVER THERE.
 
the new(ish) H&K 416-what makes it so reliable?

The letters "H" and "K" printed on the side and their marketing department's propaganda. BTW, that also makes up ~90% of the price of the 416.

HK - because you suck and we hate you.
 
I thought any AR reliability issues has very little to do with D.I. Take for instance, an AK. If you were able to change from a gas piston to D.I. I think it would be just as reliable. Of course, that's just my opinion. To me an HK needs to have roller delayed blowback to be a "true" HK rifle.

What advatages does the 416 have over the HK 33/53/93 series ? Also I can't imagine it's much better than the Ruger 556.
 
jerkface11 said:
Like it all you want it still isn't more reliable.

Yeah, not that I don't trust your opinion, but the US Army disagrees: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/12/army_carbine_dusttest_071217/

In fact, far being "still isn't more reliable", it is nearly FOUR TIMES AS RELIABLE in Army Dust tests. Four times as reliable is lots more than "isn't more reliable", isn't it? I mean, last time I took math, 233 is smaller than 882, isn't it? What math are you using to come to your conclusion Jerkface?
 
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The built from scratch DI system in the AR/Mxx is one type of mousetrap
The built from scratch piston systems in the 416/FAL/AK/XCR are other types of mousetraps

Both have pluses
Both have minuses

Some prefer piston to DI
Others prefer DI to piston

Retrofits will always have to have some degree of compromise, be it cost, weight, reliability, recoil impulse etc etc.

HOWEVER.......

There are some folks with something of the evangelist around the Holy Church of AR and the Received Gospel of DI............:evil:

Questioning the sanctity of the platform immediately makes you a heretic and beyond the pale.

There are fewer (although still very loud) numbers of the fundamentalists in the piston arena.

Me, I prefer piston, brought up on the L1A1 and lurrrrrrrve my XCR.......:D
 
mp5a3 said:
I thought any AR reliability issues has very little to do with D.I. Take for instance, an AK. If you were able to change from a gas piston to D.I. I think it would be just as reliable. Of course, that's just my opinion. To me an HK needs to have roller delayed blowback to be a "true" HK rifle.

What advatages does the 416 have over the HK 33/53/93 series ? Also I can't imagine it's much better than the Ruger 556.

Direct Impingement does numerous good things and numerous bad things:

Good:
1) lightweight operating parts
2) free-floating gas system does not change POI
3) operating parts ALL move in-line with bore and do not jerk the gun up and down like the AK
4) simple construction- Bolt and Bolt carrier ARE the piston and cylinder respectively, no need to duplicate these parts.

Bad:
1) heat applied directly to bolt, heats it up and:
a) changes temper of parts
b) dries up lube
c) makes bolt difficult to handle to clear jams or clean due to heat
2) combustion gasses condense into solids on operating parts
3) gas tube vents crap back into your face and out side of gun, close to your face or IN your face if you're a wrong-handed shooter
4) significantly more sensitive to dirty powders

Problems with M16 that are NOT directly related to the gas system:
1) no 'primary extraction' -- the bolt tries to rip the cartridge out all at once, no leverage advantage
2) bolt wedge -- bolt carrier wedges carrier key to side trying to rotate bolt the entire way. AK uses flat surface and only rotates bolt at end of stroke.
3) straight magazine -- The upper portion of the magazine is straight, a throwback to the 20rd magazine days. This is the source for about a third of malfunctions.
4) fragile feed lips -- Ever looked at the tank-solid feed lips on an AK magazine?
5) buffer -- can't mount a folding stock
 
a) changes temper of parts
You're arguing that AR bolts get hot enough to change the molecular structure of the steel? I don't have a reference in hand for the conversion temp of the steel used in AR bolts but I suspect you're several hundred degrees short of the mark.

1) no 'primary extraction' -- the bolt tries to rip the cartridge out all at once, no leverage advantage
No. Rotating bolt systems have primary extraction because the bolt rotates before unlocking, breaking the cartridge case free. A system with no primary extraction would be the delayed blowback of the HK G3 series. BSW
 
The Army dust tests were hardly a real world scenario. A normal AR hardly ever jams the HK hardly ever jams. In real world use you would NEVER see the difference. Though I realize that some of us are apparently in the business of selling piston ARs.
 
According to Noveske a piston doesn't matter on a suppressed weapon.

http://www.defensereview.com/novesk...ecce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/


Crane: You’re not doin’ a piston gun, right?

Noveske: No.

Crane: Do you have any plans to do a piston gun?

Noveske: We have piston plans, but we don’t have any plans of putting it in production, because it’s…I don’t think it’s necessary. I’ve got piston guns here from other makers, and they’re dirty, and I don’t see…

Crane: Whadya’ mean "dirty"?

Noveske: Open up the bolt and look inside, and it’s dirty inside. The whole thing about them running clean is not necessarily…o.k., let me back up. I only run the guns with suppressors for testing when I did my comparison, and with suppressors, direct-impingement and piston-operated were both very dirty, ’cause the blowback comes to the chamber, not the gas tube. And, I’m not real happy with the piston systems that I’ve shot and examined, so it’s just to me, it’s not…

Crane: Well, the piston…the advantage for a piston with a suppressor on there is supposedly it doesn’t blow all the gunk back in your face.

Noveske: O.k., but what you’re not paying attention to is that all that crap comes back through the chamber, not the gas tube. On a piston gun or gas-impingement, the case is being extracted while the suppressor is still under pressure. Now you have all the pressure in that suppressor exiting both out the front and the back.

Crane: Right, but you’re saying the piston gun doesn’t solve that?

Noveske: It does not solve that. They’re both dirty.

Crane: So then how come you hear about guys saying yeah, when they’re shootin’ the direct gas impingement guns suppressed, or whatever, they’re gettin’ a lot of gas and particulate matter in their face, whereas with the piston, that it dissipates that a bit, or whatever.

Noveske: Maybe they had a different experience.

Crane: Hm. So, in other words, you’re saying that basically the piston doesn’t really offer any real advantage for that.

Noveske: What I’m saying, with a suppressor, direct-impingement and gas-piston both run dirty, and even a blowback gun or a delayed-blowback gun, like an H&K [Heckler & Koch], or any other operating system–I don’t really care what operating system you have–on an auto-loader, with a sound suppressor, they’re gonna’ all run dirty.

Crane: Right. Now, is a piston gun gonna’ put any less gas and particulate matter in your face, or are you gonna’ get the same amount?

Noveske: All a piston gun is gonna’ do different from gas impingement with a suppressor is reduce the amount that is coming through the gas tube. The piston gun is gonna’ eliminate that. I am not a scientist, but from my observations in shooting and examining the guns afterwards, it appears that the vast majority of the gas coming through is coming through the chamber. And, one example is go look at any of the HK91 or HK93-type rifles. Those have the fluted chamber and delayed blowback, and the cases are always black just like the case fired out of the gun with a suppressor. That’s because the case is extracting while it is still under pressure, and you have gas blowing back along the case as it’s blowing out, and covering it with carbon. And, that’s what’s happening with any autoloader with a suppressor. The cases all have carbon on them, because gas is escaping around the case out the chamber and into the receiver.

[DefenseReview received the following post-interview via email from John Noveske: "Also, we should mention the poor choice of platform for the piston conversion on a round receiver bore as found on the M16/M4 system. All other piston type systems out there utilize a railed receiver design, like the M14, AK-47, M249, FAL and so on. The round receiver bore design used on the M4 is only acceptable for the standard op system. The carrier and bolt expand on axis with the bore under the normal gas impingement cycle, but on a piston gun, you run into off center impulse issues with carrier tilt and incorrectly designed carrier contact points. Some designs attempt to address the carrier tilt problem with over sized carrier tails and rollers. I do not believe the receiver extension should be used in this manor. I know many people are very happy with their piston weapons. This is not meant as a knock on the piston conversion systems out there, but as a philosophical dialogue focused the new physiological relationships applied to the M16/M4 platform through the introduction of an operating system which has traditionally been applied to receivers with rails for the bolt and/or carrier. I would rather see an entirely new weapon system designed for the piston from the ground up. I believe there several outfits currently working on this."]
 
briansmithwins said:
Badger Arms said:
a) changes temper of parts

You're arguing that AR bolts get hot enough to change the molecular structure of the steel? I don't have a reference in hand for the conversion temp of the steel used in AR bolts but I suspect you're several hundred degrees short of the mark.

YEP, I'm not just arguing that, I'm repeating myself. Springs will not only weaken when heated inside the bolt (I'm speaking of the ejector and extractor springs) but the bolt and ejector will be effected. I'm not talking your armchair-warrior AR-15 (I note that you went from my use of the "M16" and extrapolated to the civilian AR-15). I'm talking about a full-on M16 or M4 with rates of fire of 900rpm cyclic. Put a few mags through an M4A1 in succession and pull the bolt carrier out. Grab the bolt. Notice anything?

briansmithwins said:
Badger Arms said:
1) no 'primary extraction' -- the bolt tries to rip the cartridge out all at once, no leverage advantage

No. Rotating bolt systems have primary extraction because the bolt rotates before unlocking, breaking the cartridge case free. A system with no primary extraction would be the delayed blowback of the HK G3 series. BSW

Uh, wrong again. The rotates with the cartridge still in the chamber, no rearward movement. The first rearward movement is when the cam pin strikes the front of it's camway in the bolt carrier and grabs the rear of the hole in the bolt, yanking back all at once.

Also wrong about the G3. Primary extraction on the G3 is provided by the case itself being blown back. Of course, it's still under considerable pressure at that point so primary extraction is somewhat ineffective.
 
Jerkface said:
The Army dust tests were hardly a real world scenario. A normal AR hardly ever jams the HK hardly ever jams. In real world use you would NEVER see the difference. Though I realize that some of us are apparently in the business of selling piston ARs.

So, as long as you don't operate in a dusty environment, the M16 is fine, eh? We'll just tell the terrorists to move to a non-dusty, non-humid environment. Tell me how that works out. And you think I'm in the business of selling piston AR's? That's the only reason I defend the HK416? Really? Ask Delta how they feel about it. If the M4 is so good, why did they ditch theirs... Ooooohhhhh, I already know the answer. Keep fooling yourself.
 
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