The reconnaissance, escape, and evade carbine.

[jmar]

The obvious answer is the AR-15, or something like an HK416, MP5SD or, VSS Vintorez. All guns used by groups like SEAL's Delta and Spetsnaz. Hardcore dudes who actually do escape, evasion, and reconnaissance.

I did not bother reading the scout rifle thread yet as I'm crunched for time lately, but a while ago I designed a rifle similar to what you are thinking possibly.


It's basically a bolt action AR, but I'd like it to have a quick change barrel system so when moving you could just pull the barrel and fold the stock to have 2 pieces that will fit in almost any backpack. But the main reason the gun has a barrel change system is 2 things, 1: variating lengths. So if you were in CQC scenarios you could run a 10-14 inch barrel with heavy .300 blackout subsonics, then move to a sniping position and swap the barrel to a 20-24" .556. Which leads into the second reason which is to quickly change calibers. You may wonder why I chose bolt action, well it's mainly a necessity when wanting a barrel or caliber change system. Simply fiddling with gas impingement would be too hard. But there's also the huge benefit in accuracy, repeatability, and sound. A bolt action is the absolute most quiet you can get usually so it's a perfect fit for a scout scenario. I never designed this with a end of days scenario in mind but more of a SOCOM style weapon, but I just thought I'd mention it as I think it fits what you're looking for.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I can't see a reason that the OP's scenario calls for anything different than Cooper's original concept:
- light
- easily maneuverable
- fast on target with a speed loop sling
- chambered suitable for "game" in the 200+lb range

The reality is, and this has sadly changed a lot since Cooper wrote, that the weak link in many shooter's scout rifle setups would be the shooter. The vast bulk of people just can't shoot any more. If you CAN spot, range and shoot - reliably delivering hits on a man-sized target out to 4-500 yards from field positions with your preferred centerfire rifle then you're ahead of about 99.9% of all modern shooters.

Now back to the rifle, a few things have changed since Cooper. For example, we've got these nifty carbon fiber/kevlar stocks that are rigid and weight nothing. We've also got at least one action that is really sized to short action cartridges and corespondingly light, but which still has pretty good features - the 84M. Put the two together (no, not that kimber Hunter cheapout) and you'd have something. In terms of magazines, a 3-rd flush fit is about ideal but would require custom bottom metal and stock work. A two-notch mag catch as an alternative to a cutoff would be cool. For caliber, you could go with anything short action between .243 and .308, but I'd stick with the .308Win. One other temptation would be to cut the barrel down to 16" and add a 5" suppressor - probably a Thunderbeast Ultra-5 right now if cash is no object. Sights, I'd be inclined to stick with the peep + forward telescope setup, although we could talk about a rail with integral peep and a normal position scope. If mounting a scope over the action, I'l look hard at the new Leupold CDS ultralights or possibly even an NSX compact at a bit more weight - either would give the rifle long range capability a scout historically lacked.

The AR-15 will always be hampered by being chambered in too little cartridge, the AK and SKS by horrible design on all fronts, and the big pattern AR, Garand, and M1A by being either too heavy, or too compromised trying to strip it of weight. They're only worth it when intentionally taking them to a fight where you intend to make use of the capacity.

The AK and SKS horrible designs!? I think millions of rebels, revolutionaries, and terrorists would take issue with that as they have used these two guns to successfully recon, strike, escape, and evade in the most corrosive, dusty and primitive environments on Earth for almost 70 years. Sure, the M16 platform has evolved into a passable weapon, but Simonov and Kalashnikov got it right on the first try.
Would I rather have my SOCOM16 in the States where ammo is plentiful? Yes. But anywhere else in the world? Make mine an AK!

 

[Kendal Black]

I do not take this discussion as a TEOTWAKWKI. It's simply this. You can have a .223 or a .308, in a little lightweight rifle. If we are going to have field reliability, the .308 is a bolt action.

The M-14 and the Brit FAL (they have some weirded nomenclature for it, L this and A that) were highly reliable. Neither were light rifles by a long stretch.

So this is not, precisely, a TEOTWAKI. It is YANCD. (Yet another caliber discussion.)

 

[eastbank]

I think a .308 in a rem model 7 SS(blackened if you wish) with a synt stock and the barrel shortened to 16.5" with a 1x5 good quality scope would do, and one done up the same way in .223 would do also. light,easy to carry and good for 300 yards shots if needed and ammo would not be hard to find. eastbank.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Mini in 7.62x39 would work.

Yes, it would work: until you ran out of ammo. Although there is certainly a lot of 7.62x39 in the States, I think it is largely concentrated with a relative few number of people (hoarders, gun nuts, ummm......me.). In this neck of the woods, I would rather go with a caliber which is more widespread, albeit in smaller quantities.
Kick over just about any rock in the lower 48 and you'll probably find a few rounds of .223 or .308.
Even if you did stumble across a case of AK ammo, one could only carry away a couple hundred rounds at best.
Now if your scouting around South of the border, well thats a different story...Mini 30 all the way!

 

[plbour]

I'd use the AR15 platform and likely move pieces around on what I have. 10.5" 300 blkout upper with comp m4, on my lower with the echo trigger and MFT stock. Light weight, able to quickly put to use and within 300 yards it is minute of coyote. Echo trigger allows me to put down high rate of fire if needed, but is also a solid trigger. But I'd likely also pack my 18" 223 wylde upper with Vortex Strike Eagle in case I needed to reach out and touch. This type of setup is why I have been contemplating moving to the dolos system to quick change barrels.

 

[Balrog]

Yes, it would work: until you ran out of ammo. Although there is certainly a lot of 7.62x39 in the States, I think it is largely concentrated with a relative few number of people (hoarders, gun nuts, ummm......me.). In this neck of the woods, I would rather go with a caliber which is more widespread, albeit in smaller quantities.
Kick over just about any rock in the lower 48 and you'll probably find a few rounds of .223 or .308.
Even if you did stumble across a case of AK ammo, one could only carry away a couple hundred rounds at best.
Now if your scouting around South of the border, well thats a different story...Mini 30 all the way!

In addition, the Mini 30 is known to have difficulty with the hard primers of russian and com-block 7.62x39 ammo. My mini 30 would have 1 or 2 failures of the firing pin to hit the primer hard enough to ignite it. I ended up selling it because of that. It did fine with US and Western European made ammo, but it sure did not like russian and com-block ammo.

 

[Duster340]

Didn't think "Scout" rifle when I made it, but have come to really like the handy package with a decent punch. 17.5" barrel, 10 rd detachable mag rugged .... thought about adding optics but the old aperture sight works fine for anything I use it for.

Low tech for sure....

 

[ThomasT]

If a reliable lever or pump action was available, I'd consider those. But to my knowledge neither are.

Hum? lever actions were carried all over the U.S. a 150 years ago and worked for lawmen, badguys, cowboys and indians who were very rough on guns so I sort of think they are reliable rifles. But thats just me. And don't forget they were shipped all over the world and used in wars in Mexico and Russia.

For what the OP asked I could do all of it with a lever action 30-30 and a low power scope. If not that then the Remington Model 7 I have in 7-08 with a 2x7 scope on it.

I haven't read a lot of Jeff Cooper but I seem to remember him liking a 30-30 rifle. I have an AR but it would be about the last rifle I would choose. I would pick my mini-14 many times over before the AR.

 

[Kendal Black]

I think a .308 in a rem model 7 SS(blackened if you wish) with a synt stock and the barrel shortened to 16.5" with a 1x5 good quality scope would do, and one done up the same way in .223 would do also. light,easy to carry and good for 300 yards shots if needed and ammo would not be hard to find. eastbank.

It is a funny thing. Before Jeff Cooper began talking up the scout rifle concept sometime in the eighties, I had already decided that a light sporter .308 would serve most purposes. I thought it should have a low powered scope, maybe even 1x so the aiming reticle was just sort of there in your normal frame of reference.

As I have related before, I am not exactly a Cooperite true believer. Before the scout scope, he had already explained how to get a conventionally scoped rifle on target fast. You point the rifle as if it were a shotgun. Then you look in the glass. Unless you have the power screwed all the way up, your quarry is visible and it is now merely a matter of squaring the crosshairs.

Edited to add: That sounds a lot like the much misunderstood "flash sight picture."

 

[ThomasT]

Kendal I agree. I have handled a couple of scout rifles and did not care for the forward mounted scope. From what I have read its main reason for being was to make it possible to use stripper clips. Now a forward mounted scope just means you are saying you have a Scout Rifle.

With a scope set on its lowest power a rifle that fits you will have the reticle aligned as soon as the butt pad hits your shoulder. That makes a snap shot pretty easy to pull off and that was what JC was after. A quick well aimed shot.

 

[ThomasT]

I think the Ruger Frontier rifle was the best basis for a "Scout" rifle that was ever offered. Too bad they are gone and hard to find. Expensive when you do find them.

 

[Kendal Black]

Kendal I agree. I have handled a couple of scout rifles and did not care for the forward mounted scope. From what I have read its main reason for being was to make it possible to use stripper clips. Now a forward mounted scope just means you are saying you have a Scout Rifle.

With a scope set on its lowest power a rifle that fits you will have the reticle aligned as soon as the butt pad hits your shoulder. That makes a snap shot pretty easy to pull off and that was what JC was after. A quick well aimed
shot.

I think the scout scope thing was well intentioned. It works okay unless your target is northward, or if in the other hemisphere, southward. Otherwise the sun gets in the glass and you become, as our Austrian friends say, aus geflipped.

Cooper was right about many other things.

 

[Ignition Override]

Jmar:
I also mentioned our special forces on page One of this, asking what they and our conventional forces prefer for the US situation in this thread.

Maybe your comments will elicit some informed responses (from combat veterans).

NIGHTLORD40K: you might have offended people who don't want to hear about the proven SKS/AK capabilities. When a SEAL mission on a mountain over Lebanon's Bekaa Valley (to record French Mirage BDA on Hezbollah in '83) carried AKs, they really screwed up. Former Army Spec Ops (Desert Storm) coworker told me that "When our guns jammed, we picked up AKs".

It seems to have been fairly common even when their issued guns did Not fail.

 

[Kendal Black]

Maybe the best defense of the scout scope is to say that no true scout would be caught with the sun behind him.

 

[HB]

"Maybe the best defense of the scout scope is to say that no true scout would be caught with the sun behind him."

That's the best position to approach animals, and I would assume humans as well? You can easily hide in a shadow and the sun would be directly behind you.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Didn't think "Scout" rifle when I made it, but have come to really like the handy package with a decent punch. 17.5" barrel, 10 rd detachable mag rugged .... thought about adding optics but the old aperture sight works fine for anything I use it for.

Low tech for sure....

Perhaps low tech but a thing of beauty in it's simplicity.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Jmar:
I also mentioned our special forces on page One of this, asking what they and our conventional forces prefer for the US situation in this thread.

Maybe your comments will elicit some informed responses (from combat veterans).

NIGHTLORD40K: you might have offended people who don't want to hear about the proven SKS/AK capabilities. When a SEAL mission on a mountain over Lebanon's Bekaa Valley (to record French Mirage BDA on Hezbollah in '83) carried AKs, they really screwed up. Former Army Spec Ops (Desert Storm) coworker told me that "When our guns jammed, we picked up AKs".

Our body shop manager is a combat wounded Vietnam veteran and former Team member. He will respectfully decline to relate much about his service when asked- unless you ask him for his opinion on the Car15 vs AK. He will smile and produce from his wallet a very tattered picture of himself and a couple of his 'mates " in country." All three are carrying well-used AK47s. Nuff said.

 

[Gordon]

Our body shop manager is a combat wounded Vietnam veteran and former Team member. He will respectfully decline to relate much about his service when asked- unless you ask him for his opinion on the Car15 vs AK. He will smile and produce from his wallet a very tattered picture of himself and a couple of his 'mates " in country." All three are carrying well-used AK47s. Nuff said.

It was more of a display of war prizes IMHO, the AKs were very desired as captured weapons.. We knew they worked well, which the ARs sometimes didn't back then. . But I only saw the very few SF officers and senior NCO actually carry them on OPS or regularly and they could do most anything in the boonies. The LRRPS did not, at least in the 101st.

 

[Kendal Black]

"Maybe the best defense of the scout scope is to say that no true scout would be caught with the sun behind him."

That's the best position to approach animals, and I would assume humans as well? You can easily hide in a shadow and the sun would be directly behind you.

I am there making, or attempting, a joke. Silhouetted on the ridge line is something you only want to be if you are Gary Cooper (not Jeff) and in a heroic Western movie.

I learned a long time ago that if I have to explain a joke it wasn't funny in the first place.

 

[bannockburn]

Lots of different (and great choices), out there. For myself I might go with an Remington Model 600 in .308, a CZ 527 Carbine in 7.62x39, or my trusty old CAR-15 in .223 that I built many years ago.

 

[coloradokevin]

I think any discussion of this type depends more on defining your mission first. It's also probably worth remembering that a gun is just one tool, and surviving a bad situation may involve having quite a few other "non tactical" items (food, clothing, etc). We get lost in the caliber/action debates quite a bit around here, but the real question is: what are we trying to accomplish?

The late and great Jeff Cooper is often discussed, as are anecdotal reports from Vietnam regarding advantages and disadvantages of the AK/AR platforms. Again, before any decision is made we really need to define our mission. What is our objective? Where are we going, and why? What are we planning to use this weapon for (self defense agains a stray bad guy, defense against an armed force of bad guys, hunting, etc)? Also, what is our period of deployment; how long are we going to need to be carrying this weapon? Are we going by foot or vehicle?

For a generalized discussion of "society collapsed and I need to get out of town", I think it's hard to beat an AR-15 these days. First, it's a relatively accurate rifle for a semi-automatic (and it can be made VERY accurate fairly easily). The weapon is reliable, and it's easy to service. The weapon shoots very commonly available ammunition. It also carries sufficient ammunition to allow you to put up a pretty good fight against multiple attackers (especially if you have friends who are also carrying these rifles). The rifle still has enough power for emergency hunting of big game. It handles adverse weather reasonably well. It's reasonably easy to find spare parts for it (it's probably the most popular gun in America these days).

There's nothing wrong with the AK platform, either. It's a reliable gun, but has some drawbacks: ammo is slightly less common (though still very common), the gun is FAR less accurate, and you are less likely to find parts to service the rifle in the field.

As far as the AR/AK debate is concerned, reports from Vietnam are about 50+ years out of date at this point. The AR platform has matured greatly since that time. I grew up in a world where the veterans all told us to go with the AK's over the AR's for reliability. Honestly, it hardly matters these days. I have a number of AR-15's, and they've been very reliable guns for me. Are they as reliable as a great AK? Probably not quite as much so, but they're far more accurate, and that can make a difference. They're also more modular, and they're more ergonomic.

Anyway, back to the mission issue... depending on what you're picturing, a shotgun could be a real good choice, too. A shotgun can be used to hunt just about anything, and it's a really powerful weapon within 100 yards. It's also a weapon that does a good job of door breaching. Drawbacks here usually concern the amount of ammo you can carry, your rate of fire, and effective range.

If we're talking TEOTWAWKI scenarios, the best tool you can probably bring is the one found between your ears. The second best tool you can bring is all of your trustworthy friends. If I were facing a full societal collapse kind of scenario, and was forced to bug-out, I'm planning to do so in the company of a number of other well-trained and well-equipped people that I can trust. Fortunately, I don't see that kind of situation coming to pass.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

I think any discussion of this type depends more on defining your mission first. It's also probably worth remembering that a gun is just one tool, and surviving a bad situation may involve having quite a few other "non tactical" items (food, clothing, etc). We get lost in the caliber/action debates quite a bit around here, but the real question is: what are we trying to accomplish?not quite as much so, but they're far more accurate, and that can make a difference. They're also more modular, and they're more ergonomic.

Anyway, back to the mission issue... depending on what you're picturing, a shotgun could be a real good choice, too. A shotgun can be used to hunt just about anything, and it's a really powerful weapon within 100 yards. It's also a weapon that does a good job of door breaching. Drawbacks here usually concern the amount of ammo you can carry, your rate of fire, and effective range.

If we're talking TEOTWAWKI scenarios, the best tool you can probably bring is the one found between your ears. The second best tool you can bring is all of your trustworthy friends. If I were facing a full societal collapse kind of scenario, and was forced to bug-out, I'm planning to do so in the company of a number of other well-trained and well-equipped people that I can trust. Fortunately, I don't see that kind of situation coming to pass.

Yeah i made that point earlier in latent detail as the words OF SERE were used in the title, it was kind of just skipped over, so i just assumed that point of convo wasnt actually SERE or even combat survival, and just another "cooper scout rifle" type sub topic and decided not to ruin peoples fun.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That's why I picked my Colt Woodsman. It's light, easy to carry, kills small game very well and in a pinch you could use it for self-defense.

And I've hiked many miles and know the penalty for carrying more of anything than you really need.