The reconnaissance, escape, and evade carbine.

[Gordon]

I'm 71, I spent most of my life training for and doing (in a sportsman/ hunting sort of way) the snooping and sighting and shooting in very rugged terrain , Scout type activities with a Remington 600 actioned and true scout at first .308 tool. I have morphed away from the forward mount low magnification optics since the 90s from bad experiences. I have moved to 3-9 type high quality conventionally mounted scopes on ultra light and very expensive and accurate cutom rifle with a GG&G offset platform mount for an light Docter Optik RMR instead of BUS iron sights as I see them better in any light, they are very fast and I don't have to move anything or take a scope off to use them. I attended Gunsite Orange in early 80s and am familiar with the original concept and it's application.
Times have changed since the concept and the fundamentals are still valid : a full power cartridge capable of hitting heavily at distance , maybe up to 600 yards. A short light carbine that can be carried on sling all the time and instantly deployed . A rugged reliable action with at least 5 shot capability and for me a tuneable sytem that can achieve 2" groups at 200 yards from a good rested position and solid shilo hits to 600 yards from same , with a preferred load. Because of such criteria sub sonic ammo becomes less .desirable there fore a suppressor less desirable, but still usefull as an accesssory maybe. It is easy enough to fit up a bottom metal change to most short action bolt guns to use a quality detachable mag . if so desired. About that desire I have both ways and it really is not a big deal either way in the real world. #1 Mags require pouches to carry them really and wight something them selves. . #2 in the modern world if a "Scout" had to shoot a few times he better think about scooting from the position instantly as there would be an overwhelming response ti his position What IS important , other than being startled by an enemy and shooting quickly , which would be at realitively short range, is ACCURACY ! A first round hit with a major caliber like .308 is devastating to an enemy at hundreds of yards from a defiladed position. Follow up rounds to others would be a great solution to many bad situations and a cool head with a 9x or so scope and a hyper accurate rifle with a 5 round mag can deliver that with a very light barrel , if the package is built correctly. FWIW I have found a Remington custom short action .308 with a great barrel in a light stock with a tuned fixed mag can be reloaded very quickly even on the move to another position , and topped off easier than an inserted detachable mag can . I won a regional Practical Rifle competition which was held at the old fort ord on their 300 meter "assault" course with such a combination against M14s and ARs and such in 1984 with a Brown Precision Scout with a quality German scope conventionally mounted FWIW. I previously used a HK91 tuned by Williams I believe , as I was not into ARs until the 90s much because of my experience with them in Vietnam for a couple years .
All this said I trained heavily when I was in my 50s till mid 60s with the "new and improved" AR package and man that seemed to obsolete the Scout concept , and was so proven in the Sand Box and Stan. I knew the old SP1 CAR was very usefull humping the mountains and could kill the local small deer very well to 200 yards and was light and accurate enough with proper ammo. A real modern tricked out one with a 4x Accog or an Aimpoint with magnifier could make the important to me 200 yard reliable head shot. The power of a short barrel AR really falls of by 300 yards tho, and when a leader of your enemy shows up 400 yards across a canyon allowing you to safely take him out, then what ? My Brown Precision .308 with Federal Gold Match can do it handily. If others pursue then stop as you run and take them out ! Only hits count so the 30 round mags aren't really needed. They are helpful if you allow the enemy to close or ambush you, but then you are not much of a Scout

 

[Gordon]

FWIW I have fooled the last 2 years with a Noveske .300 BO pistol , with brace with various optics and good Buis and even with a supressor in Oregon. It does pack in motorcycle saddle bags well so I could get in some nice remote country. I now have no illusions as to it's power and have rellegated it to a deer hunting at moderate range, like a weak 30-30 and have chosen the 5.56 version as a better fighting system over all . The .300 BO is fun and for a motorcycle all around woods bumming cartridge is great. Also it really works well on hogs up to the 186 yards I took a big one here in California.

 

[Demi-human]

An AR fifteen in six Hagar. Kind of puts a dent in finding ammo on the way though.

 

[Armored farmer]

I have been very impressed with this little rig.
Probably asking too much of it for 300yd performance .

 

[WrongHanded]

I'd happily carry my Garand in that situation... so long as someone else carried my ammo!

So with that said, in the US if ammo must be found (however) along the way, .223/5.56 is the way to go. Nothing else is going to compete for weight, availability, and performance in the given scenario.

So what weapon fits the caliber and the scenario? There are quite a few, but for this caliber I feel it needs to be semi-auto. If a reliable lever or pump action was available, I'd consider those. But to my knowledge neither are. And I think the caliber and scenario necessitate a minimum of 10 round box magazines. Preferably 20 rounds, in my opinion.

If replacements magazines are required, that narrows it further to stanag compatible platforms. So the AR is the obvious choice, and means replacement parts are easy to come by. But I'd prefer not to have the T shaped charging handle and the gas tube, both of which I consider to be weak links in the platform. So maybe a forward charging handle and piston system. Or maybe just a different rifle.

 

[chicharrones]

So with that said, in the US if ammo must be found (however) along the way, .223/5.56 is the way to go.

. . . If a reliable lever or pump action was available, I'd consider those. But to my knowledge neither are. And I think the caliber and scenario necessitate a minimum of 10 round box magazines. Preferably 20 rounds, in my opinion.

One could choose a used Remington 7615P. Not cheap though.

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

http://www.remingtonle.com/pdf/7615Pposter.pdf

 

[WrongHanded]

One could choose a used Remington 7615P. Not cheap though.

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

http://www.remingtonle.com/pdf/7615Pposter.pdf

I thought someone might mention that rifle. Great idea, if it's reliable. But my understanding is that whilst it was designed after the ever popular 870 shotguns, to be a familiar platform for LEO, it ended up not being that reliable and parts were hard to get.

If not for those concerns, I'd like one in .223 and one in .308.

 

[Wisco]

I have been very impressed with this little rig.
Probably asking too much of it for 300yd performance .

If you can mount the gun solidly, 300 yards is very doable.

I shot a MK18 with eotech at a regular army pop up range and did very well, accuracy wise. Not what the gun is for, but if you can shoot man sized targets at 300 meters with an M4 carbine, a few less inches of barrel isn't that crazy.

 

[Llama Bob]

I can't see a reason that the OP's scenario calls for anything different than Cooper's original concept:
- light
- easily maneuverable
- fast on target with a speed loop sling
- chambered suitable for "game" in the 200+lb range

The reality is, and this has sadly changed a lot since Cooper wrote, that the weak link in many shooter's scout rifle setups would be the shooter. The vast bulk of people just can't shoot any more. If you CAN spot, range and shoot - reliably delivering hits on a man-sized target out to 4-500 yards from field positions with your preferred centerfire rifle then you're ahead of about 99.9% of all modern shooters.

Now back to the rifle, a few things have changed since Cooper. For example, we've got these nifty carbon fiber/kevlar stocks that are rigid and weight nothing. We've also got at least one action that is really sized to short action cartridges and corespondingly light, but which still has pretty good features - the 84M. Put the two together (no, not that kimber Hunter cheapout) and you'd have something. In terms of magazines, a 3-rd flush fit is about ideal but would require custom bottom metal and stock work. A two-notch mag catch as an alternative to a cutoff would be cool. For caliber, you could go with anything short action between .243 and .308, but I'd stick with the .308Win. One other temptation would be to cut the barrel down to 16" and add a 5" suppressor - probably a Thunderbeast Ultra-5 right now if cash is no object. Sights, I'd be inclined to stick with the peep + forward telescope setup, although we could talk about a rail with integral peep and a normal position scope. If mounting a scope over the action, I'l look hard at the new Leupold CDS ultralights or possibly even an NSX compact at a bit more weight - either would give the rifle long range capability a scout historically lacked.

The AR-15 will always be hampered by being chambered in too little cartridge, the AK and SKS by horrible design on all fronts, and the big pattern AR, Garand, and M1A by being either too heavy, or too compromised trying to strip it of weight. They're only worth it when intentionally taking them to a fight where you intend to make use of the capacity.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

The situation that wasnt gone into detail is everything in sear. You might be better off with no weapon and blending in with the population. If you are actively being pursued in a open field by a few assailants then sure. AR or whatever it up. If you are being pursued by 40 dudes, armed and on line coming your direction....you as a lone wolf and your rifle isnt going to do much, if they have any common sense they will suppress and maneuver you. if you set up your field in phase lines, and make your self appear as a bigger force than you are by using shock and effect...ie, dfc's, anti personnels, long range effective kills in combinations, and so forth, youll need to have a choke for it to be effective by yourself, now that is back to the basics of METT-T. The average joe might as well carry a pistol with one bullet for himself to avoid rape and torture. If you have a fighting spirit then go for it..its going to suck. A man with common sense, should use micro terrain, cover and concealment to martin baker the hell out, and find easily traversable escape routes and put distance between you and said enemy. Even a suppressor wont help that much, just mask the distance and direction of the shot, and that should be for unexpected encounters with one or two individuals...maybe, depending on the location of the larger militia. Situation always dictates course of action. if you need to survive and hunt game and say undetected...if possible, the ar7 if suppressed will probably be of value. Semper gumby.

 

[Kendal Black]

The reality is, and this has sadly changed a lot since Cooper wrote, that the weak link in many shooter's scout rifle setups would be the shooter. The vast bulk of people just can't shoot any more.

One thing he wrote was a very sincere attempt to head off the problem you describe. "The Art of the Rifle" is field marksmanship boiled down to essentials. It's a book I suggest to people because very little else is in print that starts from sound basics, unless you wish to puzzle through the awkward prose of this or that military manual. http://amzn.to/2eYoDik

As with his ideas about how to build a rifle, I've picked and chosen what has been useful to me rather than embracing every Cooperian idea. I like the speed sling, I do not like the kneeling position, and what he has to say about snap shooting seems to me to be right on target.

 

[Balrog]

The AR-15 will always be hampered by being chambered in too little cartridge, the AK and SKS by horrible design on all fronts, and the big pattern AR, Garand, and M1A by being either too heavy, or too compromised trying to strip it of weight. They're only worth it when intentionally taking them to a fight where you intend to make use of the capacity.

I would not think 5.56 mm NATO is too little cartridge for the Eastern US scenario I proposed. Given the considerations for weight and mobility, it may be preferable because you could carry a reasonable amount of ammo for relatively little weight.

 

[MisterNoisy]

Interesting thought exercise. My own solution to that problem would probably just be a 10.5" AR pistol/SBR with a good 1-6x, folding BUIS and a two-point sling. Mags would all be 20-rounders just because 30's are a pain in the butt when shooting from prone.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I kinda envision a rifle that is good shooting and operating from prone in a muddy thicket.

So basically an SKS for top loading or an AR for lightness. Not an for me AK because loading their mags can suck in a tight spot. A bonus would be an adjustable gas block to turn it into a single shot for secret squirrel operations.

 

[Ironicaintit]

I'm gonna renege my previous answer:

An AR is the nearly perfect choice for this storyline. Light, quick handling, and fairly powerful.
I love love love my m1 carbine, mini14 and others.... But faced with "grab just one and go", the AR is clearly the only way to go.
My A2, dolled up to look like an A1 at a glance, would be what I grab on my way out the door.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hmm, I believe I would go "old school" on this question. For your consideration what of the 30 caliber carbine? It's light & easy to sling even with a full pack. Natural to "point" & aim and is accurate enough to down rabbits and still leave enough carcass for the stewpot yet enough power to bring down larger game and not so pleasant two legged animals.

 

[BigBore44]

Can someone explain why you would leave the safety and cover of your house? Short of them setting your house on fire to flush you out, I'm not leaving brick, concrete, water, food, shelter etc. I'll just fight from my house. Bugout scenarios are always based on the premise that no one can come help. So either you have no friends, the police were all taken in the rapture, or you just like running through the woods carrying a bunch of stuff that's only going to run out.

 

[Scooter22]

I kinda envision a rifle that is good shooting and operating from prone in a muddy thicket.

So basically an SKS for top loading or an AR for lightness. Not an for me AK because loading their mags can suck in a tight spot. A bonus would be an adjustable gas block to turn it into a single shot for secret squirrel operations.

The Yugo SKS with grenade launcher has a cut off that would make them a SS.

 

[hdwhit]

Balrog wrote:
But, let us consider what might be needed of a weapon with a similar mission here in the lower 48 states.
...
In the 21st Century Eastern North American scout scenario,...

So, are we Lower 48 or just East of the Mississippi?

If we're talking about the activities of a "scout", that is a person or small-team operating in the reconnaissance role for a larger conventional force, then the scout will need to be able to draw his/her supplies and spares from the unit he/she is working with and in the United States that makes specifying out a rifle to meet the Scout Rifle concept trivial as the only "scout rifle" a conventional unit can be assured of being able to supply and maintain is an M4 Carbine or a near equivalent.

 

[hdwhit]

eastbank wrote:
PS please put sh#t paper in your kit, you will need it.

That's what the pages of my reloading manual are there for once I run out of components for more than one or two types of cartridges.

 

[Kendal Black]

Would a light carbine in 223 (bolt or semi auto?) be a better choice? In such a scenario would the need for several rapid shots be more probable than in Coopers African-influenced Scout? Would a 22 LR carbine be viable? How about a lever action carbine? Or maybe even a carbine chambered for the same cartridge as your handgun?

There are lots and lots of rifles that would work. Heck, maybe a shotgun would work. But it seems to me that a scout rifle would be approximately suitable too, since the main criticism so far is that it is more powerful than is necessary. That is, at least, better than less powerful than needed.

I do like the argument that .223 ammo is much lighter and far more compact. But if one is ghosting through the countryside, avoiding trouble, how much ammo does one need?

Something that would work quite well is an M4-gery with an ACOG and maybe a suppressor too, a configuration that may be familiar to some members with questionable haircuts. It's a sweet little setup, handy, quick, and capable of fine accuracy. The idea of a scout rifle (an idea not achieved in every commercial example) is to have those qualities and a big bullet too. The bolt action is a necessary concession to keep the weight down.

I still don't see a particular problem with a scout rifle in the role envisioned. I think it would do fine.

 

[hdwhit]

BigBore44 wrote:
Can someone explain why you would leave the safety and cover of your house?

Fresh game. Fresh fruits and vegetables. Water. Sanitation. To harvest wood for fuel. To tend to the animals that provide meat, milk and eggs. To plant, tend, harvest, winnow, grind and store grain.

You may have enough water to drink for an extended period of time, but it will grow pathogens in short order and become unusable for anything other than flushing toilets. And when you planned your water needs, did you take into account the number of times you would need to expend 1.6 gallons flushing a domestic toilet?

 

[hdwhit]

armored man wrote:
Plasma rifle in the 40 watt range. Oh, whoops, wrong thread, my bad.

You've said too much already!

Get back in the TARDIS and don't say anything else.

 

[Varminterror]

I thought we didn't do bug out/SHTF/TEOTWAWKI here? But now we have two of them rolling?

 

[Balrog]

I thought we didn't do bug out/SHTF/TEOTWAWKI here? But now we have two of them rolling?

Maybe because TEOTWAWKI is not what this thread is about. The Scout Rifle was NEVER intended to be an end of the world weapon. The discussion is about whether the concept of the Scout Rifle, proposed decades ago by Jeff Cooper, is outdated considering the changes that have occurred over time in firearms. New materials, new designs, new optics, and improvements in ammunition have all occurred, and any of these factors affect the design principles of the Scout.

Additionally, the mission of the Scout Rifle as proposed by Cooper was that it was to be used by a scout in basically uninhabited or lightly inhabited terrain, such as in Africa, where animals tend to be large and predatory. This thread takes into account that most people who might have the liberty and money to afford a scout rifle live in the USA, most east of the Mississippi, where back country and large predators are uncommon.

At the time of Cooper's original description, most rifles were made of steel and wood. Now a variety of new materials such as polymer, aluminum alloys, and carbon fiber have come along with are lighter and help make the weight limit of the scout easier to achieve, especially if you use a semi-automatic. Remember one of Cooper's main reasons for specifying a bolt action was because it was easier to meet the weight requirement with a bolt action than with semi-autos available at the time.

Also, red dot optics accomplish the same thing as Cooper's forward mounted standard rifle scope.

Also, the widespread availability of magazine-fed rifles raise the question of whether or not stripper clips are still relevant.

Additionally, advances in bullet development over the last 50 years have been substantial, and some cartridges previously felt to be "inadequate" are now gaining acceptance as being more effective than previously, meaning that the original recommendation of 308 or 7mm-08 might now be updated to a different cartridge.