These gimmick rounds perform exceptionally well when it comes to separating the ignorant and gullible from their money.
I'm sure someone once said the same about hollow point ammunition. And we all got fooled.
How would you even determine that hollow points were actually more effective?
All new ammo has to be introduced sometime. I'm sure there were a lot of close minded naysayers when the hollow point was born.These gimmick rounds perform exceptionally well when it comes to separating the ignorant and gullible from their money.
You mean back when the first HPs were marketed to LE and (possibly) for self defense? PETA probably didn't have the reach then that they do now. So, tests on living tissue in a controlled environment?
So performance in those tests could help us discern between improved designs and gimmicks?
I have rather limited experience with this bullet design, but LeHigh Defense asked us to test them for the new DG line of ammo from Buffalo Bore. We ultimately settled on a flat-nosed design with a large meplat as the other design didn’t penetrate as deeply or produce the wound channel of the flat-nosed designs of the same caliber. We tested them on bovine flesh and NOT gel, where you get muscle, sinew, bone and skin to disrupt the ability of the bullet to go deep and straight. I don’t think any solid design will replace a good expanding bullet, nor should it be expected to. Horses for courses.
I have rather limited experience with this bullet design, but LeHigh Defense asked us to test them for the new DG line of ammo from Buffalo Bore. We ultimately settled on a flat-nosed design with a large meplat as the other design didn’t penetrate as deeply or produce the wound channel of the flat-nosed designs of the same caliber. We tested them on bovine flesh and NOT gel, where you get muscle, sinew, bone and skin to disrupt the ability of the bullet to go deep and straight. I don’t think any solid design will replace a good expanding bullet, nor should it be expected to. Horses for courses.
These gimmick rounds perform exceptionally well when it comes to separating the ignorant and gullible from their money.
The observation I always have is the hunting community shoots a whole bunch more animals every year than anybody shoots people, and most of those hunters are looking for that one shot stop, as capacity is pretty much never a consideration for hunters.Your forgetting about the "OTHER WAY" to test ammo, EXPERIENCE in the field.
Pudge,
Your forgetting about the "OTHER WAY" to test ammo, EXPERIENCE in the field. At one point, my agency used +P+ .38 Special and we had complaints of failure to stop situations during gunfights. We switched calibers and the problems went away. We switched calibers again and no complaints. Most large law enforcement organizations track what happens in the field these days. So does the military. If some ammo comes out and is issued, we can see what happens there.
After the supposed failure of the SILVERTIP ammo in the Miami gunfight, the FBI pushed for deeper penetration and heavy for caliber rounds. Then some of those agencies who followed that advice found it was poor advice. It took the ammo makers a while to catch up, but they have.
You can call the agencies around you and ask what they carry. I now carry the ammo my agency was issuing (FEDERAL 180 grain HST in my .40 S&W pistols) before our latest caliber change. We had no complaints from the field and it was used for almost a decade.
Even the NYPD went to hollow points and they are a very, very conservative agency.
JIm
WRONGHANDED,
All the same, I will wait for proof from the LEO'S. I remember that NYPD was doing anything to avoid adopting hollow point ammo for their .38 Specials and tried a 158 Semi Wadcutter load (without a hollowpoint) and did not find it was anymore effective than the 158 grain Lead Round Nose ammo that they were already using.
I do believe that monolithic fluid transfer bullets like the Lehigh Extreme Defense and Extreme Penetrator bullets will eventually replace HP and JHP bullets. I adopted ammo with both Defense and Penetrator bullets as far back as 2014 and the Penetrator was the only solid bullet option in the Lehigh Extreme line. I’d I’d not do it on a whim. I researched the fluid transfer technology and it made perfect sense to me. A high pressure water stream can cut through flesh, and the fluid transfer bullets can also.
I am not a bullet belief missionary. To each his own. However, I am a person who wants to understand the science and the performance of technological ‘things.’ I have seen enough tests of the fluid transfer bullets in gel, through, barriers, through bone, windshield glass to believe they are better performers than HP particularly in shorter barred handguns from which velocities are often inadequate to assure HP expansion. The fluid transfer bullets do not depend upon expansion. They generate wound channel by high velocity fluid pressure tearing tissue. Bullet velocity increase their performance but even the low velocity 3 inch barrel 380 pistol will create substantial wound damage. The test I have seen showed that they were more effective than any JHP in 380 and 9mm. Logically, that would indicate it would be true for larger calibers too.
I considered these, I didnt really do alot of in depth analysis beyond watching a tnoutdoors review of the Xtreme Penetrators and I wasnt real jazzed about 30"+ penetration but the wound cavity was surprisingly impressive. I wouldnt carry these unless for predator defense or hunting Cape buffalo or elephants.
I'm aware they made a dialed back version down from 115gr solid copper to a 90gr solid with enhanced flutes, these are what you carry? Those might be worth checking out. I'm not sure about the claims saying that these are going to be the catalyst for sweeping all common HP bullets off the armory and store shelves... Do any agencies that anybody knows of even carry these Lehigh fluted bullets?
While I can see over penetration as somewhat of a potential issue for LE, as they may find themselves in shootout in a crowd, for the civilian concealed carrier, the likely-hood of that is very small, to non-existent.I’ve always felt this over penetration concern was somewhat comical in light of all of the misses in a shootout. Think about it.
Why would you think that?While I can see over penetration as somewhat of a potential issue for LE, as they may find themselves in shootout in a crowd, for the civilian concealed carrier, the likely-hood of that is very small, to non-existent.
If in a crowd, I would retreat rather than engage. Why would I get picked out of a crowd to be the sole victim rather than somebody else? Sure it's possible, but we're working our way down the list of likely possibilities.Why would you think that?
You should always do that, if possible.f in a crowd, I would retreat rather than engage.
If you do not appear to be "the intended vicim", you would be much wiser avoid the use of a firearm.Why would I get picked out of a crowd to be the sole victim rather than somebody else?