The Rock Island incident (KaBoom)

[1911Tuner]

The bulge just ahead of the chamber is evidence of an obstruction. Could have been a squib...or it could have been part of the bullet sticking...like the jacket...with the rest going downrange. Dunno...but the bulge tells a tale. Bad barrel steel that failed wouldn't have bulged unless a obstruction was present. Maybe the second bullet drove the stuck bullet out and both hit the target, which would explain two holes.

Squibs are strange animals. The gun feels like it functions. The slide recoils and strikes the impact abutment, making the recoil feel normal. Then it strips and feeds the next round...chambers it...and when the bullet hits the obstruction...it bulges the barrel. People who experinece it swear that the gun fired normally. Due to hearing protection, they often don't hear the difference in report...and the recoil feels perfectly normal.

For what it's worth...I've seen several squibs happen to other people, and only stainless barrels split lengthwise like that. Carbon steel barrels just bulge and stop the gun. The barrels that do split, normally split at 9 and 3...but they split from the muzzle to the first lug.

 

[jjohnson]

Back to RIA

I also am glad you were not injured I hope your shorts weren't soiled over it

I'd send it back to RIA. They might want to replace it and keep what you return for analysis by their engineering folks. If I were in their shoes, that's exactly what I'd do - not just for problem determination, but to limit their liability. You can imagine what would happen if they repaired it and sent it back to you, then you had another catastrophic failure.

Just being "good guys keeping their customers happy" they should want to swap you anyhow. Why not give 'em a call and let them offer to fix the problem?

 

[Bass Killer]

It's the reason that I will never own a RIA 1911

 

[1911Tuner]

It's the reason that I will never own a RIA 1911

If it was a squib...and I'm 98% sure that it was at this point...the same thing would have happened with any stainless barrel. I've seen it with Kart and Bar-Sto barrels...as well as a couple of Colt's barrels.
A live round fired into an obstruction will bust one like right now. I watched it happen with a Wilson Combat pistol one Sunday afternoon. I realized what it was when the qquib went pop, and yelled for the shooter to stop...but it was too late.

As for RIA's quality in general...they're not bad at all for entry level 1911 clones. A couple of the locals here have'em, and they've been well pleased thus far.

 

[skoro]

That's one nasty looking barrel. Glad you weren't injured.

Send it back to the Rock Island folks in Nevada and they'll do whatever needs to be done to make it right, I'd bet. They have very good customer service.

 

[Quoheleth]

Maybe the second bullet drove the stuck bullet out and both hit the target, which would explain two holes.

I'm with 1911Tuner on this one. The second shot propelled the first, stuck bullet downrange and into the target. Think of it as a .45ACP with two OOOO-Buck pellets

Q.

 

[1911Tuner]

The second shot propelled the first, stuck bullet downrange and into the target

That's the most likely scenario...in which case RIA isn't likely to honor the warranty, nor are they bound to honor it. Kudos to'em if they do...but that ain't the way to bet.

 

[rondog]

It's the reason that I will never own a RIA 1911

That's a really nice "gun-snob attitude". Obviously you've never had any experience with RIA 1911's. "Oh, but they're made in The Phillipines by third-world peasants, they MUST be garbage!"

 

[ndh87]

UPDATE:

I spoke with Arnel at Armscore and he said just send it back and he would fix it, no charge. I was quite surprised that he said he would do it for no charge even though I said I was shooting reloads. I'll post another update when the pistol comes back.


Tuner - I saw the first hole after the first shot. Not saying it wasnt my fault just clarifying.

as for my shorts, they didnt go kasquish.

 

[rondog]

Try to find another 1911 manufacturer that will do that. RIA cares about it's products, customers and reputation. They want their customers to be happy, and if there's a material issue with your barrel, they want to know about it ASAP so any problems/issues can be resolved.

 

[1911Tuner]

Can't fault'em for that. I'd say that they've earned your respect and your repeat business.

I saw the first hole after the first shot.

Odd. That bulge is a sure sign of an obstruction.

The mechanics of the event that Bill Caldwell...a noted knife maker and metallurgist...and I came up with are thus:

The fired bullet strikes the stuck bullet. The seal effected by both cause a violent spike in air pressure between the two. Now, think of how a diesel engine operates. The high compression pressures ignite the fuel/air mixture.

The sudden spike raises temperatures to the point that the steel is super-heated for a split instant.

The pressure starts a slight bulge in the hot steel as the fired bullet gets closer to the stuck bullet. The impact causes the nose and base of the two projectiles to obturate and fill the bulge...which causes it to bulge even more...which lets the bullets continue to expand into the space...until the bulge leads to a split...or the pushing bullet runs out of push.

It's the only thing that we could come up with that explained it. Pressure alone wouldn't bulge the barrel. It would have blown the weakest point...the brass case in the unsupported area under the case head at the barrel ramp. If the steel was flawed, it would have simply blown out the chamber...where the highest pressure occurred...and the barrel wouldn't have split all the way to the muzzle because at the instant the chamber ruptured, the pressure would have been explosively relieved...bulging the slide.

Other than that...I'm at a loss.

 

[Olympus]

I agree. The bulge in the barrel shows that something impeded the propellent gases. The gases had to go somewhere and something had to give. The bulge is generally the first attempt by the gases to push on something with the least resistance.

But I wasn't there and I'm not going to say that the OP isn't being honest. Stranger things have happened. But I would really like to know how RIA handles this and how much of a factor the shooting of reloads plays in the decision.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

The guys at RIA are class acts.

 

[AKElroy]

Maybe a little off topic; but how do you own this RIA in Chicago? Maybe the KaBoom is Bad Obama Karma?

 

[skoro]

I spoke with Arnel at Armscore and he said just send it back and he would fix it, no charge.

Arnel's a very skilled gunsmith. Your 1911 will be well taken care of.

 

[Oro]

Maybe the second bullet drove the stuck bullet out and both hit the target, which would explain two holes.

Regardless of whether the shooter saw the first hole prior to the second shot, the physics of a squib with a second shot then printing both on the target remotely near the POA don't work. It would require the second round to be double charged at a minimum.

There's just no "free lunch" in physics. Two projectiles with one charge will not print on the target; they'll fall short of it, probably passing too low to print on it at all, much less near POA. However, the probability of the physics get better with the scenario of a primer only squib and then a double charged follow-on shot.

If you have a friend who's a machinist, see if he can do a RH test on the barrel to see what hardness it is, might give a clue as to one theory. The later post with the shooting photo seems to show a lot of propellant discharge above the port as well as through the dust hood, with the gun in battery.

 

[1911Tuner]

Two projectiles with one charge will not print on the target; they'll fall short of it,

It depends on how quickly the barrel split after the collision and whether or not the fired bullet was set back into the case when it chambered. Not long ago, I was on hand for a near kaboom event with a young police officer from Durham. He had a squib...assumed that he had a misfire, and immediately racked the slide to clear it and chamber another round. I screamed for him to stop, and when we cleared the chambered round...the bullet had set back enough to let the round chamber.

The squib didn't move quite far enough for the incoming round to seat...but the neck tension on the reload was low enough to push the bullet back into the case and allow return to battery. If the round had fired, I imagine that pressures would have gone out the roof...maybe not as high as a double charge...but it would have been close.

In most squib incidents I've seen, the barrel bulge occurs further forward than in this one. Usually at the halfway point or just a bit further, where the collision occurs. The bulge in this one is back near the chamber...and the chamber is involved in the fracture, which indicates that's where the collision was.

If the pressure is near double, it would create much the same effect as a double charge.
No?

There are too many unknowns here to call it with any certainty. The one thing that is certain is that there had to be an obstruction. Maybe it was heavy fouling ahead of the leade. Maybe a portion of the bullet stuck and the rest hit the target. As a long-time bullet caster and mad scientist, I've known of/seen bullets that were cast too hard break apart and kick up two dust gouts on the berm. I've seen jacketed pistol bullets separate jackets and cores and strike twice within a few inches a target 100 yards away. That happened to me once with a .357 Magnum firing 125-grain Speer bullets with a maximum charge of 296...and it was doing it with nearly every round fired. Whether the jackets were separating in the barrel or in flight is open to speculation.

 

[Guillermo]

With customer service like that an RIA might be my next new gun purchase.

My daughter seems to have caught the 1911 bug so this could be a good gift for her 17th birthday

 

[sarduy]

^^^ That's a good idea.

 

[earlthegoat2]

If they make a 9mm Commander then I will buy 2.

 

[Gunfighter123]

If it was a "squib" the owner would have had to manually chamber the second round -- never seen a squib that would work the recoil impulse of the slide.

 

[1911Tuner]

never seen a squib that would work the recoil impulse of the slide.

A squib will absolutely will cycle the slide. That's why they're so dangerous. The felt recoil is pretty much normal, with only the light report to warn the shooter that something is wrong. With good ear muffs...it goes unnoticed.

 

[Drgong]

I will give credit where credit is due, RIA is doing good CS.

 

[Gunfighter123]

OK --- not trying to be a Smartasse --- is a squib a primer only load{no powder} or a case where the bullet doesn't leave the barrel.

After shooting IPSC/IDPA/Cowboy Action etc. for 20+ years and ROing for the same , I have never seen where a 1911 or any other semi-auto would have the slide work and eject the brass , only to leave the bullet in the barrel.

Again -- not saying it can't/didn't occur -- just I have never seen it.

Any other shooters have this happen ??

 

[RogersPrecision]

"A squib will absolutely will cycle the slide."

35 years of owning, 25 years of wrenching,
and I've never seen this occur.