The search for accurate match loads for 9mm continues...

[kmw1954]

Looks as though I am a bit more lax than most of you. I test all handloads thru 2 different guns, test distance is at 10yards, standing, free handed. I am not looking for any particular group size or parameter because I an not trying to make Bullseye ammunition. I want to know how the ammunition is going to perform in everyday real world, real time application. The biggest inconsistency to this is of course me. I will also say that I accept that some days I will be more consistent than others, good days, bad days thing. I look for three things, accuracy, consistency and how the load feels when I fire it. Is it snappy, pushy, excessively loud, is there a huge fireball coming from the muzzle? Believe it or not but by the way I proceed and ladder up rounds I can witness groups tighten up and then fall apart. I don't expect to put 5 shots thru the same hole and am happy when I have 5 shots all touching. What I am watching for are no shotgun patterns, which at 10 yards even my wife can accomplish that. I guess it's all in what you are trying to accomplish and if I was loading for 25 yard Bullseye shooting I am sure I would change my loading practice.

 

[Trey Veston]

If the oal's are consistent and the sd's/es's check out then it's time to move to the bullets diameter. Measure 20 bullets and the load them/crimp them and then pull them and re-measure their diameters. There should be no changes in diameter. Lastly look at the cases your using. Measure the fired cases at the mouth of the case and at the web of the case. Then measure your reloads. Too much difference in those #'s and your cases are going side to side in the chamber destroying accuracy. Can't even begin to tell you how many times I've seen posted on the internet "the 9m headspaces on the case mouth".

I reviewed my whole process and I think I found a big problem... With 10mm and .40 S&W loads, I religiously sort the brass and only use the same brass for each batch. With 9mm, I just used whatever I had in a giant glass jar from range trips. I did notice some bullets would seat easier than others in a batch. So while I was checking and re-checking OAL, and making sure my crimp was as light and consistent as possible, I was making a huge newbie mistake by not making sure the cases themselves were consistent.

Will start over with loads that delivered nice clusters with flyers and make sure the cases are sorted and consistent.

 

[murf]

what case manufacturer are you going to use? whose dies are you using? what press do you use?

murf

 

[Walkalong]

If you have inconsistent neck tension your sizer may be too large for the thinner 9MM brass or you expander could be too large. Could be a little of both.

 

[Walkalong]

Sorted 9MM brass does seem to shoot a tiny bit better than a mixture, but it is small and most times isn't pertinent. I like to shoot my 9MM pistols at 100 yards, so it helps there. Seem to have fewer misses.

 

[rfwobbly]

Sorted 9MM brass does seem to shoot a tiny bit better than a mixture, but it is small and most times isn't pertinent. I like to shoot my 9MM pistols at 100 yards, so it helps there. Seem to have fewer misses.

Agree. In handguns it ranges from irrelevant for plinking, to imperative for velocity measurements.
.

 

[vaalpens]

I reviewed my whole process and I think I found a big problem... With 10mm and .40 S&W loads, I religiously sort the brass and only use the same brass for each batch. With 9mm, I just used whatever I had in a giant glass jar from range trips. I did notice some bullets would seat easier than others in a batch. So while I was checking and re-checking OAL, and making sure my crimp was as light and consistent as possible, I was making a huge newbie mistake by not making sure the cases themselves were consistent.

I have been reloading for a while, but I'm not sure yet if I can tell how much difference different headstamps make to accuracy. For all my load development, I sort by headstamp, and sometimes even sort by case length. Even doing all the sorting I can still detect a difference in how easy the bullets are seated. Cases are not consistent and bullets are not consistent. The RMR bullets are very consistent, that is why I like to use them in 357sig.

Since you are a newbie reloading 9mm, but you are targeting a 1.5" grouping at 25 yards with a stock Glock barrel, have you proven to your self that you can shoot a 1.5" group at 25 yards yet? Looks like you have been reloading 10mm and 40s&w for a while with a well established process. What type of groups do you see at 25 yards when you test your 10mm and 40s&w loads?

I am not trying to question your ability, but I have learned over the time that I have to make small increments in accuracy and prove to myself that I can actually shoot what I am trying to achieve. For a long time I tried to improve my groups by trying different powders, bullets, evaluating my process, but at the end of the day changes I made how I was testing had the biggest improvement. Now I am at the point where I am trying to go below .46" at 15 yards, and below 1.1" at 25 yards. The biggest gain will probably be achieved by me being more consistent during testing.

Good luck reaching your accuracy goals.

 

[Trey Veston]

Since you are a newbie reloading 9mm, but you are targeting a 1.5" grouping at 25 yards with a stock Glock barrel, have you proven to your self that you can shoot a 1.5" group at 25 yards yet? Looks like you have been reloading 10mm and 40s&w for a while with a well established process. What type of groups do you see at 25 yards when you test your 10mm and 40s&w loads?

My G29 is amazingly accurate with sub 2" groups pretty easy to achieve...






G35 not nearly as accurate, but I've been able to get decent performance..

 

[PO2Hammer]

Nice shooting with the 29.

I gotta agree about the sorted brass.

For me the big breakthroughs in 9mm accuracy were a quality bullet, a seating die stem that really fits your bullet, consistent brass and being very conservative with the flaring/expanding.

I would used mixed brass in 45 auto before I used it in 9mm. Just too much crappy 9mm brass out there.

 

[vaalpens]

Looks like you have been waiting for somebody to question your shooting ability. You probably should have posted this: in your reply.

Excellent shooting with the G29. I'm not sure how you did it, but an 1" group at 25 yards with a 3.77" barrel, that is very good in my eyes. The best I have done is a 1.1" group with a 3.9" barrel shooting a P229 357sig. Interesting to see that your best grouping in 10mm is using Unique, probably not known as the best powder for 10mm. My best grouping in 357sig is also using Unique. Not known as the best powder for 357sig.

In 40s&w I have also been struggling to find very good accuracy, so I have not even tested anything at 25 yards yet. A few weeks ago I stumbled onto a .5" grouping at 15 yards using pulled 155gr bullets and Longshot powder. My plan is to get a decent bullet and then see if I can improve on the load. It sure showed some promise.

In 9mm I still believe Power Pistol will give you the best accuracy. It has given me consistent accuracy with a .465" grouping at 15 yards, but I have not tested it at 25 yards yet.

Good luck again chasing that perfect load in 9mm.

 

[Dudedog]

I have had good results with the RMR 9mm MPR JHPs and others have had as well.
It could be you gun doesn't like them (happens sometimes) but most likely something else.
Yes one bit group gives you a better picture, but if you shot 5 5 rounds groups you get a better idea as well, and targets are less torn up than a 25 rounder if things are working well. (you can overlay the 5 5s)
I have sorted brass by headstamp and am hard pressed to shoot the difference offhand at 10 yards vs mixed range brass.
I have a couple 9mm sizers and my Lee sizes tighter than my Hornady so I use it. Walkalong might be onto something with sizer or expander issues.
I also use the hated Lee FCD, don't know if it helps or hurts but I like it. (Cranked down to far it will resize bullets and hurt, but I don't crank it down to far)

Please keep us posted, hope you get it worked out.

 

[lordpaxman]

My G29 is amazingly accurate with sub 2" groups pretty easy to achieve...

Nice shooting!!

I pick up range brass at our club which the local LE's use. For load workup, I do use a single headstamp which I record. For a sanctioned match, I'll make a production run of let's say 400 and out of that, will select two 10 group samples. One with the original headstamp and one with a mixed set of headstamps which I then chrono and group. The majority of the times I've done this, the mixed headstamp sample will have a lower SD number than the single headstamp. The groups are roughly equal.
One can (and should) question whether or not 10 is sufficient for an accurate SD but, that's what I do and observe. My goal is a reasonable SD so I won't fail the chrono stage.
My takeaway from all the data I've collected is that there are many variables to reloading and I haven't yet determined their relative contribution to a reduced size group.

The point is, just selecting single headstamp brass may not be the only variable affecting your group size. There's the bullet, the primer, the case, the powder, the process and the metrics that accompany each of them. In my case (no pun intended), single headstamp wasn't a big contributor to group size. My mixed headstamp batches will hit an A zone if I do my part.

 

[vaalpens]

I'm not sure if you guys have some competition going on trying to get the smallest group in 9mm, but in the RMR forum https://www.facebook.com/groups/RMRForum/ one of the members posted a 1.09" group from a Glock 17, using the 124gr FP MW bullet and 3.8gr of 700-X powder. Testing was done at 20 yards though.

 

[Random 8]

The most accurate 9mm loading I ever came up with was a Win/Olin 124 FMJ over HS-6 with a WSP primer. Was loaded in RWS/RUAG brass. I will not quote the charge weight as it was in the "9x19 NATO" velocity range and probably +P. This combination was consistently sub 2" at 25 yards in my FNS and Argentine Hi-Power. I'd like to try some of those RMRs. People seem to favor them on here. I have used H-6 in other 9mm loads with generally good accuracy. Case fill is excellent, perhaps lending to greater accuracy potential. My defensive duplication practice load with the 124 XTP uses it to duplicate accuracy and velocity of the Hornady factory ammo. It is a little dirtier than others, and likes to run hot, but will get top accuracy and velocity with jacketed bullets in my experience, exceeding HP-38. I don't like it as much with cast bullets as I usually don't run them quite as hot.

 

[bullseye308]

I don’t know if this will help, but I have been loading for 6 different 9’s over the last few years and the best combo I have found for 5 of them is RMR 124 gr anything(or Gold Dots) over 5.0-5.2 grains of BE-86. In my Springfield Range Officer Champion my best group was .911 for 10 rounds. I do load them all to 1.12, so you may try 4.7-5.0 at your shorter length.

 

[Walkalong]

Not as good as yours, .........and a bit hot IMHO. Definitely too hot at a shorter OAL.

 

[Trey Veston]

So what makes one powder more accurate than another?

Faster burn rate? Slower burn rate?

 

[fxvr5]

So what makes one powder more accurate than another?

Faster burn rate? Slower burn rate?

Not burn rate.

 

[Trey Veston]

Not burn rate.

From what I've read, it is precisely the burn rate or characteristics that affect barrel harmonics and oscillations. How a certain powder, or amount of powder, interacts with a particular firearm's barrel is what is said to affect accuracy.

What is your explanation?

 

[lordpaxman]

From what I've read, it is precisely the burn rate or characteristics that affect barrel harmonics and oscillations.

I’m interested in this as well, where did you read this? Is this aligned with OCW?

If it’s OCW, I believe all components come in to play.

We’re using the term accuracy a bit loose here, I think, but if we’re talking about smaller groups, case fill is one powder characteristic rifle reloaders pay attention to. I’ve not found that to be the case with pistol, since Titegroup produces some of the smallest groups in my guns.

 

[Random 8]

So what makes one powder more accurate than another?

Faster burn rate? Slower burn rate?

There are answers to this, but they are largely theoretical. In general terms, many believe a powder that achieves the best "fill" of empty space in the cartridge that is of appropriate burn rate for the bullet weight, capacity and velocity will tend to deliver the best accuracy. Add into this, there are certain powders that either through decades of proven use, or the application of modern science have gained a reputation for superb accuracy. Bullseye and HP38 are 2 that come to mind in the tried and true category regarding handgun cartridges, BE86 in the latter. You may note that none of these 3 fall into the high percentage case fill category. Handgun cartridges seem to vary from the cartridge fill theory considerably...or maybe they don't and the theory hasn't been thoroughly tested as with the older powders available in the .38 and .45ACP, attaining case fill was nigh impossible.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

From what I've read, it is precisely the burn rate or characteristics that affect barrel harmonics and oscillations. How a certain powder, or amount of powder, interacts with a particular firearm's barrel is what is said to affect accuracy.

How the powder interacts with the person pulling the trigger is more important to me than what a company says about accuracy.
Some powder may be as accurate as another but may give a harsh recoil impulse that the shooter doesn't like so he may decide to go with a different powder that may have a little different burn rate and he finds it more pleasant to shoot.

That alone will improve his shooting and he will automatically think that powder is more accurate when it really isn't. He just deals with it better.

Comfort of recoil plays into to peoples perception of accuracy of a particular powder because they just plain shoot better with a powder that they and the gun favors.
Over the years I have just found the powders that I shoot the best out of the guns that I have.

The beauty of this forum is that there is so much diversity and we tend to weed out the powders and loads that we don't like and recommend the loads we have found to favor us. They may not completely favor you but they will get you close. You have to discover the rest.
That's the journey we talk about.

 

[vaalpens]

How the powder interacts with the person pulling the trigger is more important to me than what a company says about accuracy.
Some powder may be as accurate as another but may give a harsh recoil impulse that the shooter doesn't like so he may decide to go with a different powder that may have a little different burn rate and he finds it more pleasant to shoot.

Everything you stated is correct and all these other variables like case, quality of the bullet, the gun, etc, etc.

I religiously keep record of all my load development testing and creates different view of my results to see if I can learn something from it. When this thread was started I started looking at my results again, especially the groupings/precision. Looking at my records I could see again the reason why I like Power Pistol in 9mm.

I normally test 6 different loads with .1gr increments of the charge. When I looked at my Power Pistol results, the grouping for the complete load development at 15 yards with the RMR bullet were:
1.40", 1.23", 1.25", 1.24", 0.92", 0.65", 0.89", 1.11" and an average of the 6 loads of 1.09", and the best grouping of 0.65". I thought this showed some nice consistency with a very good best grouping.

I then looked at my other loads also, not just 9mm and found the following results:
1.17", 0.71", 0.55", 0.84", 0.68", 0.73" and an average of the 6 loads of .78", and the best grouping of 0.55". This one blew my mind because it goes against everything I think should produce good groupings. These loads were for 40S&W, using Lonshot (or loud shot), with 155gr pulled bullets. The velocities were 1,114fps to 1,184fps. Using Longshot should have been difficult to shoot (load), the pulled bullets are not consistent, so how did these loads group that well over a 6/10gr range. Maybe this is just one of those perfect marriages.

 

[Trey Veston]

Will definitely try some of the Power Pistol. Online, it ships to my door for about $25 a pound. But only in 4lb container. Nearest store that carries it is 50 miles away and it's $24 a pound.

Reviews for it have all been very, very good. Especially for 10mm and .40 S&W. Sounds like I may have to just bite the bullet and order 4lbs.

 

[Dudedog]

Midsouth has free hazmat until midnight tonight when you order $125 worth of Alliant Powder.
1lb PP $22.09, 4lb $81.65
You could get a couple lb each of PP (shoots well but is flashy), some Sport Pistol, some BE86
Free hazmat should save you some money

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