The ultimate 9mm carbine

[Nature Boy]

So putting a stock turns it into a short barrel rifle but adding a 16" barrel turns it back into a pistol? So confused.

Can we freakin' get rid of this nonsense NFA already?

No, I think you're overcomplicating it. The Mech Tech is nothing more than an accessory for your Glock. Sure, It includes a longer barrel and a buttstock, however, the only thing that is considered a gun is the Glock (or 1911) you already own

Like buying an upper for an AR you already own

 

[chicharrones]

So putting a stock turns it into a short barrel rifle but adding a 16" barrel turns it back into a pistol?

Only if you pull the buttstock back off when you add the 16" barrel, but technically the pistol frame is always a pistol.

I had a Beretta Neos Carbine Kit that was sold separately without need for an FFL.

The Neos pistol (bought separately through an FFL) was still a pistol even if I put the Carbine Kit's 16" barrel on it, but left off the butt stock. It became a carbine if the buttstock was installed with 16" barrel already mounted to the pistol frame. Both configurations were legal and didn't cross the NFA.

The trick was to never install the butt stock while the pistol length barrel was installed.

 

[Hanzo581]

No, I think you're overcomplicating it. The Mech Tech is nothing more than an accessory for your Glock. Sure, It includes a longer barrel and a buttstock, however, the only thing that is considered a gun is the Glock (or 1911) you already own

Like buying an upper for an AR you already own

But it isn't that simple. I cannot buy a pistol barrel length upper for my AR and slap it on and call it a day.

But after a visit to their site I got my answer, using this turns it into a rifle, and is then returned to a pistol when removed. The issue in question were the hazy details about it possibly being considered an SBR when converted back to "normal" but they have a BATF letter to explain it's ok.

 

[1stmarine]

I would remove the keltec sub2000 and hi-point from the list.
They are good for occasional shooting and plinking but for any serious duty they fall apart.
The problem with the Ruger and Marlin is that they have been discontinued for years so parts will eventually become a problem.
I cannot comment on the Beretta and CZ.

The receivers for glock lower frame also work great.

There are huge advantages of going with something so popular in terms of internals and magazines.
We will never run out of parts and aftermarket support is unprecedented.
It might be cheaper depending on what you get and have two options of firearm with your investment.
They also make one for 1911 lowers.

http://mechtechsys.com/glock-carbine-conversion/

A rony chasis (and other brands and models) will take a glock and you have awesome long barrels in 8, 14 and also 16" for compliance.
The chassis is not cheap but one could use a existing pistol or even a used one. Lifetime warranty on the glocks. They will be serviced for free
no matter how old they are.

Also the AR seems a good route with great options there.

 

[Hanzo581]

I would remove the keltec sub2000 and hi-point from the list.
They are good for occasional shooting and plinking but for any serious duty they fall apart.

Is this just your anecdotal opinion or can you point out some testing? I have no dog in this fight but I've seen my fair share of torture tests on hi-points far beyond "serious duty" and was curious.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I made mine a 16 inch rifle to avoid all that. I wanted to do an 11.5 inch barrel and a 5.5 flashhider like I did on my XM build, but I could not find a 9mm flashhider like that.

 

[1stmarine]

Is this just your anecdotal opinion or can you point out some testing? I have no dog in this fight but I've seen my fair share of torture tests on hi-points far beyond "serious duty" and was curious.

I had two bought 1 year apart that broke and had to go to the factory, twice!
A good friend at the range also has one and it has been at the factory for repairs too.
I get people like them for plinkin and doing videos with "torture" testing whatever that means.
In our case they didn't make the cut even for plinkin with a high round count.
The sub2000 is innovative and folds nicely in a backpack that is cool but I would not count on
them if my life was on the line.

One cannot and should not rely on them for any serious duty that requires reliability.
Reliability is not there and that is why you don't see anyone in any serious job using them.

They are what they are, cool inexpensive firearms.

 

[Nature Boy]

But it isn't that simple. I cannot buy a pistol barrel length upper for my AR and slap it on and call it a day.

You can if your lower was established as a pistol, which is exactly what your glock or 1911 is, which was my point.

 

[Corn-Picker]

One cannot and should not rely on them for any serious duty that requires reliability.
Reliability is not there and that is why you don't see anyone in any serious job using them.

They are what they are, cool inexpensive firearms.

Agreed.

I'm close to buying my first PCC/PDW as an HD firearm, and my number one requirement was that it had to be something designed for military and police use and designed by a large manufacturer (e.g. Beretta, CZ, etc...). I'm pretty sure it'll be the CX4 at this point, the CZ Scorpion is nice but it's longer and heavier than my AR... The Beretta is shorter, lighter, and the balance is further towards the rear; all things I want for my HD application.

 

[John_R]

I had two bought 1 year apart that broke and had to go to the factory, twice!
A good friend at the range also has one and it has been at the factory for repairs too.
I get people like them for plinkin and doing videos with "torture" testing whatever that means.
In our case they didn't make the cut even for plinkin with a high round count.
The sub2000 is innovative and folds nicely in a backpack that is cool but I would not count on
them if my life was on the line.

One cannot and should not rely on them for any serious duty that requires reliability.
Reliability is not there and that is why you don't see anyone in any serious job using them.

They are what they are, cool inexpensive firearms.

Please define "serious work."

 

[Danoobie]

I can't speak to the rest of the list, but six months ago I got the CX-4 Storm
for a PCC with my 92FS, with matching mags. The Storm is light, dependable,
accurate, and easy to carry. I guess it helps if you like the 92FS, or M9 to
begin with.
The carbine barrel puts a lot of MV on the 9MM round.

 

[dh1633pm]

I always wanted a 9 mm semi. With the unsafe act this becomes hard. I was reading all the responses here, there are a lot of them. I was thinking a 9 MM lever gun would be just the right rifle.

 

[az_imuth]

I've always been a fan of the pistol caliber carbines, simply because they are fun to shoot and aren't generally as loud as rifle calibers. I've had the Marlin Camp 45 and currently have a Rossi in 357/38 and they are both a lot of fun. Right now I've been shooting this 9mm AR with the dedicated glock lower. It is a blast to shoot. Magazines are cheap and easy to find in various capacities. This one is all PSA and has run like a top since day one. Threw some pop-up irons on it with the intention of getting a red dot, but the irons are working so well that I just left them on. The full length rail allows me a generous sight radius. The stock being adjustable allows for different LOP for different sized shooters. Very fun little carbine and quite versatile since it accepts most AR components/accessories.

 

[maxxhavoc]

I have had the Hi-Point for many years, with and without the ATI stock. It has always been reliable, no complaints on accuracy, and fun to shoot.

With that said, I built a 9mm AR a couple years ago, and have only shot the Hi-Point one time since...and probably never again.

The AR is easier to clean. Taking the Hi-Point apart is a little bit of a pain, and seeing how primitive the action is still is kinda scary. I had dart guns as a kid that were more sophisticated.
The AR is more accurate.
The AR is more fun to shoot. With either stock, the Hi-Point feels like it is slapping your cheek whenever you fire it. By the end of a shooting session, it can feel downright uncomfortable.

As far as the why of a 9mm carbine...well, it shoots like a 5.56 AR, at <50 yards accuracy is on par with the 5.56 AR, recoil is similar to a 5.56 AR, and the holes in paper are easier to see. And ammo is cheaper. If you reload, it is MUCH cheaper, and reloading 9mm is 1/10th of the work of reloading .223. I can go to the range, shoot 300 rounds (about $35 worth of 9mm reloads for me), and have those rounds reloaded in a bit more than an hour not including tumbling time.

As far as comparisons to .22 go...shooting .22 from a rifle is closer to shooting a pellet gun for me than it is to shooting a centerfire caliber. And I can shoot a pellet gun a lot cheaper. I compare it to 5.56 because if you are shooting paper 9mm has MUCH more devastating effect on the target than a 5.56.

 

[MCMXI]

I have a SIG MPX SBR with two extra 30-round magazines and two 20-round magazines arriving any day now (Form 3'd about four weeks ago) so I hope I like it. I've never handled one or shot one but I like SIG products and expect this to be no different. This will be my first SIG "rifle" though. I have an AAC Ti-Rant 9 and Ti-Rant 9M for it so will decide which suppressor works best. I recently bought a P320 TACOPS Carry pistol so the P320 and MPX will make a nice combination. I haven't decided on an optic yet but will most likely use a Vortex Razor AMG UH1 or Trijicon RMR of some type.

 

[CraigC]

I handled the MPX at the last couple NRA shows and was heartily impressed. Might still have to get one but for now I'm very happy with my CZ and the Shockwave brace in lieu of an SBR stamp.

 

[MCMXI]

I handled the MPX at the last couple NRA shows and was heartily impressed. Might still have to get one but for now I'm very happy with my CZ and the Shockwave brace in lieu of an SBR stamp

That's good to hear. A friend has one that he's very happy with and it's one of the reasons that I ordered mine sight unseen. He converted his to full auto so I might be going that route eventually. Baby steps and all that ...

 

[Girodin]

I'm a fan of 9x19 rifles for many of the reasons stated by others in this thread. Over the years I have had a number of them. I have had everything from dirt cheap hi points to high end B&Ts. There are so many good choices in 9x19 guns right now its hard to go wrong.

La crème de la crème is the B&T APC 9. This is arguably the best 9x19 out there. BT even makes what is probably the best brace for it if one does not want to SBR it. The down side, like with most nice things, is that it is expensive. Magazines are also expensive. It was stated earlier in this thread that these guns are hard to find. They are not. They are just expensive.

B&T makes a handful of other 9x19 guns: The P26 is their most affordable option at around $1000-$1200. There are not a lot of these out there but they are great guns. Basically they are a highly refined very well made tec 9. It does everything I want a 9x19 gun to do. Its small and light, reasonably accurate, shoots well suppressed, reliable, can readily mount a RDS, and fun to shoot. If one didn't want to shell out the dough for the APC 9 this might be an option. They also have the TP9. For me this is the one if someone wants a tiny 9mm SBR. Its draw backs are that it is very expensive, uses the same expensive mags as the others, and doesn't play well with most suppressors. They have the KH9. However, if this gun is not something already on your radar it probably isn't what you are after. It is unique, expensive, and only a few hundred will be brought in to the country.

Various MP5 clones: Right now there is everything from factory HK guns to various clones in all kinds of configurations. If one is interested in these it would behoove them to do some research. I really like the MP5, but recognize some of its limitations. The ergonomics aren't the best available, no LRBHO, no great way to mount a RDS, the triggers aren't as good as what some other guns have. These guns are all fairly expensive. Often $1500 and up. Magazines are also somewhat expensive. From what I have experienced they seem to do well suppressed.

Kriss Vector: I like the vector and could be happy if it was the only 9mm rifle I got to shoot. They can be had a pretty reasonable prices and when you consider you don't have 922r concerns (if SBRing) and that they take glock mags they are even more attractive from a cost perspective. They are't a super light gun but nothing to complain about. The biggest complaints I have are mounting sling points and a light and that they have a pretty high sight over bore. This is another gun that I could be pretty happy with if it was the only 9mm I got to shoot. It is definitely unique and an attention graber if one is into those things.

MPX: Familiar AR ergos and ease of mounting lights, RDS, sling points etc are what I see the strong points of the MPX. Mags are stupid expensive which really drives the price of this gun up. Many people experience a lot of gas to the face shooting them suppressed. If you have ever experienced that you know it makes shooting much much less enjoyable.

Scorpion: There is a reason CZ has sold so many of these. Great little 9x19 carbine. There were a few teething issues with some mags but that seems to be sorted, If you SBR it you have to deal with 922r but CZ is a model of what other companies should do by selling the needed parts. Many don't like the ambi safety selector but the aftermarket has addressed that so its an easy fix. CZ is also a model in making magazines that aren't stupid expensive.

Storm: I have shot them. Never owned own. People I know who own them like them. They aren't my cup of tea and I don't like that the barrel isn't threaded. I can't say its a bad gun though. For the money its not the direction I would go but that is just me and my tastes.

Uzi: The uzi is an iconic weapon. The closed bolt semi's differ from the open bolt full auto guns. I have shot both and I like the semi's for what they are. Much like the MP5 they are an older design and it shows when it comes to ergos and mounting sights and lights. It is also a pretty heavy gun. They are a lot of fun though and depending on what you get they are very affordable. Magazines are also very affordable.

Mini and micro Uzis: I've never shot the micro so I wont comment on it. Much of what I said about the Uzi is true of the mini save they are not as affordable nor as heavy.

KT sub 2000: I love my sub 2K for what it is. And what it is is a cheap fun 9mm. The build quality is greatly inferior to everything mentioned above (and this is having handled several sub 2Ks and multiple examples of most of the above). This isn't a surprise since it is half the price of the next cheapest option listed above. The fact it folds in half is handy and neat. It is a small and rather light gun despite being a 16" barrel. The fact it takes pistol mags of our choice is nice. Mine is a glock model meaning it takes everything from the spare mags for my pistol to 33 rd sticks to the 50 rnd drum. Its a cheap fun gun and I'm not selling mine. That said it wouldn't be my choice for a serious weapon or something I was going to use real hard. Also it has gotten less and less use since I have gotten some other 9x19 guns.

Hi point: They go bang and inside of 50 yards or so where I did most of my shooting seemed to hit what I was aiming at. They are also very very inexpensive. Beyond that I can't think of much I liked about them. I sold one. Bought another when I found one real cheap and then ended up selling it too. Its just not a gun that did much for me or I got much enjoyment out of. I have also put a decent number of rounds through a .40 cal that my friend has. At least at the time I had one there weren't any good options for higher capacity magazines. I think its a fine option where someone wants to spend very little money. Its not a gun I would buy again though. I guess it only makes sense it doesn't seem as great as something that costs 10x or more as much as it does.

ARs: There are so many different options that it is really hard to discuss them as any kind of monolithic group. Price can also vary dramatically. You can spend $500-600 or build something more expensive than a B&T.

If money is not a concern, get the B&T APC (either SBR it or use B&T's best in class arm brace) mount an aimpoint and know that your gun doesn't take a back seat to anything else out there. If a $3K 9x19 is not what you are after then I'd look at the Kriss, the B&T P26, or the scorpion. That's just me though.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

Shooting cast bullets from a gas-operated semi is not a good idea, unless you have access to the port to get a scraper in there......
The MP5 will let you do that, and is by far the best 9mm PCC made.

9mm ars are not gas operated there blow back guns. That said ive shot 1000s!! of cast bullets through my 50 beo and run a pipe cleaner through the gas tube about every 1000 rounds and theres very little gunk in it. Not much more then an ar15 using some smokeless powders that aren't all that clean like wc846. Using coated cast bullets and the beo is cleaner using cast bullets powder coated then my ar15s are with ball. I kind of chuckle at guys that say cast will foul a gas tube and then tell me they use filthy ammo like wolf 5.56 in there guns. Now that junk fouls. Ive also shot 1000s of coated cast bullets through my 5.56 guns and there no dirtier then jacketed bullets. Now maybe if your using to soft of an alloy and a real soft lube like javalina you might get some fouling but even so cast bullets are about free if you do your own and for the price of a 1000 jacketed bullets if your real lazy you can buy a couple gas tubes and not even bother cleaning them. Just throw them away and put a new one on. Bottom line though is if you know what your doing cast is not a bit harder to deal with then jacketed bullets in a gas operated gun. this kind of bunk comes from the same people that will tell you that you cant shoot cast through a glock.

 

[CraigC]

Keep it up, Lloyd, and I'll have to order that .50 upper I've been eyeballing for years.

 

[entropy]

Mea Culpa, senior moment there. Yup, 9mm PCC's are blowback, FWIW, I have shot cast from the G21 I had.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I had just about settled on saving up for the cx4 then I read a ttag review and the trigger came up. That's when I started looking at the ar based carbines.

The CX4 trigger truly sucks but I wouldn't let that put me off of one. Mine is a great shooter despite the bad trigger. While a better trigger would be nice (and you can do some upgrades if you feel it's worth the money) having a poor trigger in a carbine is less of a big deal than it would be in a sidearm.

 

[Girodin]

I should have noted all the sub 2ks I've shot had pretty bad triggers.

 

[CraigC]

Mea Culpa, senior moment there. Yup, 9mm PCC's are blowback, FWIW, I have shot cast from the G21 I had.

Well, the MPX is a gas gun.

 

[Mike .45]

Picked up this cx4 in March of this year. Put a cheap primary arms red dot on it. It's truly a blast to shoot. The trigger is pretty bad but the fun factor overrides that imo.

Got close to 1k through it and everyone that uses it get a nice big grin. It's reasonably accurate at 100 yards. We have been getting 4 inch groups with it which isn't anything to write home about but for plinking and just having a good time it serves it's purpose.

If you have smaller shooters like wives or children it's a great option. Also it's totally ambidextrous if you are or like me have a little guy who is a lefty.