The Unloaded Gun

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Kleanbore, Oct 23, 2021.

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  1. GNP

    GNP Member

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    From what I understand it was a rehearsal, and standard practice is that any firearm used in that manner wouldn’t even have blanks in it, and often is a rubber or other prop type firearm. I read several news reports about this incident this morning and it was pretty clear most of them were written by people who didn’t know a lot about guns. They are saying the handgun had a “live” round in it, insinuating a round with an actual bullet in it, but I can’t imagine why any rounds like that would be allowed anywhere near guns intended to fire blanks. Maybe the whole story will come out over the next few days.
     
  2. desmobob

    desmobob Member

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    Keep in mind that the Hollywood movie set term "live round" has a different meaning than the one we use. It means a primed/loaded blank, versus a totally inert prop round for when a complete round or the bullet of a round needs to be shown. I read this in one of the news stories regarding the incident.
     
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  3. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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    No reason it needed to be live ammo. Gas from a blank, or some object (other than a bullet) propelled by said gas, is quite lethal at short range.

    Even a barrel restriction (a blank firing device) intended to create backpressure so the blank will function the action might come loose.
     
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  4. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    I clicked thread expecting empty chamber carry = unloaded gun (effectively it is).
     
  5. Coyote3855
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    Coyote3855 Contributing Member

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    I do firearms videos for a local museum. I've had posters ridicule me for checking every firearm every time I handle it. "Do you think someone snuck in and loaded the gun when you weren't looking?"

    No, I don't think that but I've never had a negligent discharge either. And some of the people who watch aren't gun people, so the message is safety first, last, and always.
     
  6. Mk VII

    Mk VII Member

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    Somewhere around the clubhouse we used to have a poor-quality copy of a service poster showing an angel-of-death holding an LMG and legend FIREARMS KILL. MAKE SURE IT'S UNLOADED.
     
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  7. armydog

    armydog Member

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    I don't even dry fire inside the house when I know a pistol or any firearm is empty, even after cleaning and reassembly. I take my pistol, aim it at a my safe area outside and I don't deviate from that. My friends that visit and shoot on my land know the deal too. You are constantly training yourself with everything you do... good and bad. Knowing how to articulate gun safety is not enough. It needs to be ingrained like muscle memory as well. I don't want anyone pulling a trigger in my house even if it is function check after reassembly. I know they have these dry fire laser things you can do in your home, but I think that and any other dry fire drill outside of a range setting is a bad idea.
     
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  8. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    That’s how my grandpa taught me to treat guns, and therefore is my philosophy
     
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  9. JeffG

    JeffG Member

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    And no dry firing at the cat, the aquarium, the television, or the neighbor through the picture window. As a patrol officer, I went to those calls, some were funny, some were not!
     
  10. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    A friend that is a movie Armorer informed me today that there is never any reason for real ammunition to be brought onto a set since the 1950s. It has no purpose. Blanks are all that are fired. Paintball "dust" balls to simulate round impacts on surfaces are all that is needed for that purpose. No one on a set should have to wonder if a live round is in a gun on a set because there is no use for live ammunition on a set, the Armorer is responsible to load the weapon in the required manner for the blocking and story board and verify the condition of any weapon to be used before use, the AD is supposed to double check the weapon before handing a firearm to a cast member. Several things that were supposed to happen didn't leading to the tragedy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  11. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    An article on Daily Mail said crew members used some of the prop guns to go plinking with. (!)

    Meanwhile the so-called armorer sure looks negligent:
     
  12. Tom-R2

    Tom-R2 Member

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    Mine's unloaded . . . . just sayin . . . . All of the others, it's 99.99999999999999999% positive it's loaded.
     

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  13. GAF

    GAF Member

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    The most dangerous gun is the world is the one someone hands another person while saying it is not loaded.
     
  14. kmw1954

    kmw1954 Member

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    At the gun range that I work at each cease-fire we also have a standing announced order, "Unload firearms, remove magazines and place a chamber flag into the chamber!" No one is allowed down range until all firearms have been inspected.

    You would be amazed at how many people don't get this! We still get people taking off down range before the all clear has been given.
     
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  15. rdmercer

    rdmercer Member

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    This was no gas or blank. This had to have been a live 45 LC round because only one was fired and it went thru her lower torso and exited hitting the man behind her in the shoulder.
     
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  16. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    From news accounts, the professional people had walked off the set of "Rust" in protest over long hours and unsafe practices.

    The filming continued without them.

    Alec Baldwin was handed the revolver by an assistant director, not a weapons master, with the assurance it was unloaded.

    And crew members had been taking the live fireable prop guns out for target shooting with live ammo?
     
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  17. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Mark Twain did a dialogue on "unloaded guns", and how dangerous they could be. It was a funny way of expressing gun safety because, well, because he was an expert at humor.
     
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  18. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    Over 25 years ago I was working a table at the OKC gun show. We had all the guns on the table unloaded, of course, as did the guys behind us. Those guns come in from the side entrance on carts and then it was the vendors responsibility to make them safe. Folks paying to get in at the door had to check their guns, action open and even then we might have been using zip ties to flag them.

    It was quiet in front of me (rare) when a guy came up to look at some firearms behind me, I turned and watched, they talked, some negotiation, he showed his safed guns for sale, then the conversation got more negotiated and he whipped out a PPK from his back pocket as collateral, handed it over. First thing the table owner does is drop the mag and rack the slide, OF COURSE it's loaded. Much embarrassment on the customer's part altho no fingerpointing was done, he quietly gathered up his stuff and moved on.

    Even tho it could be done, I have never carried concealed into a gun show before or since. And that was in the day when there were no CCW licenses. I learned right there seeing, always treat the gun as if it's loaded. And for the next few minutes there was an interesting discussion about how a gun seemed to negligently discharge at certain shows and others not. It wen't to the folks coming in at the door - you could almost put money on it.
     
  19. bassjam

    bassjam Member

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    It's easy for us to ridicule and judge, because we were lucky fortunate enough to be taught the correct way. And we all know people who know a few things about guns who are still incredibly unsafe, so it's not hard to imagine an actor who knows nothing about firearms not even knowing what he's doing wrong. That's why there's supposed to be an expert on the set to handle the safety for him. It's hard for us on a firearms forum to imagine NOT checking a firearms ourselves, but imagine if it was something else handed to them that you know nothing about. If I was handed a grenade or a stick of dynamite on a movie set I'd need to rely on someone else to tell me it's a prop, because there's no way I'd know myself.

    I can't really expect an actor to go become an expert with any tool he/she handles or task he/she does either. Because first it's a week of firearms training, then 4 weeks of fencing, then a year of ballet, or 3 months of race car driving, or 5 weeks of handling a chef's knife, or a year learning to be a pilot. Some actors do go through training on their own when they want to make something appear more realistic, but that's not the norm and I don't think it's realistic to expect that to be the norm. It's easier to just have an expert consultant nearby.
     
  20. pharmer

    pharmer Member

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    A year or so ago I was at the Orlando Gunshow just "lookie looing." Glanced down at the floor so as not to trip over power cables and such. There in the middle of the aisle was a 9mm FMJ live round just laying there. I scooped it up and ran it over to security, gave the location found, etc. Guy thanked me and dropped it on the "gun check table." No big deal to him. That round could have been brought in by some "activist" with an agenda but dropped due to "cold feet." The way folks who have ZERO experience handling firearms wave them around going "pew-pew" at the shows makes me pucker at times. Well, that and the fact that in the 40+ years of going to shows, 3 discharges of "unloaded" guns have happened in my presence. All guns are deadly, they wouldn't be useful if they weren't. Joe
     
  21. Meeks36

    Meeks36 Member

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    My grandpa who taught me the ways of the land. Grew up hunting shooting. When I was 5 we were at his job. Herly Roberts jewelry. Boss man handed my paw paw a rifle and said it’s not loaded. Well the hole in the roof and the ringing of our ears said it was loaded.

    Buddy of mine had a Saturday night special 380. Cleaned it racked a round. Forgot and took mag out then squeezed the trigger. Nice hole in the wall. Had to lie to his mom. Said a vacuum tub popped.

    My wife’s grandpa cleaning his 32 revolver. And not sure how but a round was loaded and a nice hole on his wall.

    This has taught me ever stinking gun is loaded. Even if I check it myself it’s still loaded. Haven’t blasted a hole in someone or something. Besides my nd when I was 12. Blew up a pine cone on the ground and made me almost poop my pants.
     
  22. Meeks36

    Meeks36 Member

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    This thread has me wondering how many ad/nd are actually murder? Worst case Scenario you get man slaughter or 2nd degree. 0-25 years beats life or death row. Just something to ponder.
     
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  23. Waveski

    Waveski Member

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    I'm not buying that concept.
    If the actor is actually flying an airplane - yes - I would expect there to be considerable pilot training.
    Actually driving a race car at high speed - of course there would be extensive training required prior.
    As far as firearms go - just how expert does one have to be to know that pointing a gun at a person at close range and pulling the trigger is a very VERY bad idea? The negligent shooter pulled the trigger in rehearsal - it was extremely careless and entirely avoidable and unnecessary. Sure , the prop guy is culpable , but so is the guy on the trigger. He surely did not err on the side of caution , now did he?

    If there were a fatal AD at my club the shooter would be instantly condemned by the public and the club likely shut down for good. "I didn't know it was loaded when I pointed the gun at my buddy and pulled the trigger" would not hold any water , none at all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
  24. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Expertise is not the requirement. It is incumbent upon anyone who handles an item known to be potentially dangerous, and firearms meet that description, to know how to do so safely. In the case of firearms, that means to be able to check whether it is loaded, to not point it in a dangerous manner, and to not press the trigger except when it is appropriate.

    The occupation of the operator is irrelevant, as is the purpose for which the item is being used.

    That won't cut it.

    When there are people who cannot safely handle an item that is known to be inherently dangerous, it is necessary to secure such items and keep such people from handling them.

    We do that at home; it is done in gun stores; and it is done at ranges and around the campfire.
     
  25. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    L.A. Times has an article about what happened and their description is infuriating:

    "When they came back from lunch, a creeping shadow prompted the camera to be moved to a different angle, Russell told the detective. As Baldwin was explaining how he was going to draw his gun and where his arm would be positioned, it discharged, Russell said."

    IOW, according to the LAT, Baldwin had nothing to do with it, "the gun discharged". A DA revolver has an 11-12 pound trigger, that has to be pulled all the way back (which is far), in order for it to fire. If it was SA it would have to be cocked first. BALDWIN HAD TO HAVE AFFIRMATIVELY ACTED TO FIRE THE GUN.

    Full article at https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-24/alec-baldwin-prop-gun-shooting-halyna-hutchins-search-warrant
     
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