The wedge on open top Colts...

[C Younger]

Looks conventional . . . if you wouldn't mind just doing the "washer test" when you get a chance, that'd be awesome!! Thanks for the photos!! Now, catch that plane!!! Lol. (What in the heck are ya gonna do with it if ya catch it?!!! Yikes!!)

Mike

I’ll do the washer test when I get back to Oregon. Talk to you in about a week.

 

[halfmoonclip]

I ask what time it is, and you tell me how to make a watch!
With the wedge partially in (snug with a couple raps with a brass faced hammer), the cylinder/barrel clearance is okay.
Managed to break the screw when tapping the wedge out (the screw appears to be there to keep the wedge from getting lost; the original had a flat that, when correctly oriented, allowed the wedge to be removed.)
I'll have a look at the depth of the arbor in the barrel assembly; thanks guys!
Moon

 

[C Younger]

I ask what time it is, and you tell me how to make a watch!
With the wedge partially in (snug with a couple raps with a brass faced hammer), the cylinder/barrel clearance is okay.
Managed to break the screw when tapping the wedge out (the screw appears to be there to keep the wedge from getting lost; the original had a flat that, when correctly oriented, allowed the wedge to be removed.)
I'll have a look at the depth of the arbor in the barrel assembly; thanks guys!
Moon

I think that keeping the wedge from coming all the way out is the only purpose for the screw. It catches the little lip on the spring the runs across the top of the wedge. My Pietta doesn’t have a flat on the screw, but I can still fully remove the wedge with the screw in.

 

[halfmoonclip]

BTW, still have to wonder if it really is worth pounding the wedge all the way in. Whatever else that may be true, the wedge will eventually loosen if whacked to the end of its travel.
Still somewhat a mystery why Sam'l used the wedge, rather than some other means of attachment, if it served no purpose but holding the gun together.
Moon

 

[C Younger]

BTW, still have to wonder if it really is worth pounding the wedge all the way in. Whatever else that may be true, the wedge will eventually loosen if whacked to the end of its travel.
Still somewhat a mystery why Sam'l used the wedge, rather than some other means of attachment, if it served no purpose but holding the gun together.
Moon

I wouldn’t whack it all the way in. Flush to the other side is plenty as long as it’s tight; that’ll still give you further to go if things loosen up. I think the wedge was used for easy takedown for cleaning. Rather than carry an extra tool, like a screwdriver, for takedown, anything could be used to knock the wedge loose.

 

[45 Dragoon]

BTW, still have to wonder if it really is worth pounding the wedge all the way in. Whatever else that may be true, the wedge will eventually loosen if whacked to the end of its travel.
Still somewhat a mystery why Sam'l used the wedge, rather than some other means of attachment, if it served no purpose but holding the gun together.
Moon

What method would you have used? Now that you've seen history . . .
Beta was better but vhs won . . .

Mike

 

[halfmoonclip]

Well, Sam'l used screws (a whole dern bunch of screws) to hold the frame together, so that would have been another option....
Moon

 

[C Younger]

Well, Sam'l used screws (a whole dern bunch of screws) to hold the frame together, so that would have been another option....
Moon

He did use a lot of screws, but none of them have to come out for a field strip and cleaning, which a soldier would need to do very frequently.

 

[grter]

An older Uberti Pocket Navy (not police my mistake) .36 was just retested due to this advice and it turned out that the arbor did not bottom out despite the fact that it appeared so when assembled. The arbor was far from bottomed out in fact. I wonder if that is was caused the arbor to become loose. The loose arbor was fixed using epoxy a while ago.

Today arbor was corrected and fitted to bottom out using the screw in front of the arbor method. The steel had a very hard coating on it unlike any I experienced on newer model cap and ball guns. A norse drill bit and oil was used. Progress seemed real slow with lots of pauses after smoke to apply oil and then suddenly at some point the drill bit punched through like butter.

Cylinder gap increased but still within spec (significantly less than 0.004 no thinner gauge available) and it is still able to leave an impression the shape of the nipple outer perimeter and hole on empty tap o cap caps after being struck by the hammer. So it probably will work although the cylinder rattle can be annoying.

The wedge can now be so tight it needs to be tapped out unlike before when it went all the way through and could be pushed in and out with moderate to light finger pressure.

After dry firing 10 times on the empty tap o caps the wedge did rattle loose enough from vibration I presume to be easily pushed out with finger pressure. I don't see this as a major issue that can't be fixed by tapping the arbor in tighter and/or tapping it tighter after every full cylinder load.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Grter, thanks for reporting that. It amazes me how folks will decide how far a test should go and that ultimately they know better . . . untill they find out different. If flush to the other side was "good enough" then evey one of them would be great!!! Lol! I guess some folks really just don't want to find out that their "baby" isn't perfect so they just decide that it is. Not picking on you CY, you're not alone and I understand that one doesn't like to think anything is wrong with their open top.

As far as being able to drive the wedge completely in, . . . well that's the whole point!!!! You shouldn't be able to because the arbor isn't going to stretch (its bottomed out right?!), the barrel isn't going to stretch and the wedge should be HARD!! If you CAN drive it completely in, the factory didn't do its job!!! But you can fix it and still use you wedge!!! You'll never need another wedge but you probably will if you don't fix the problem!! Get it?!!! The whole point is SAVE your "baby".

You can bring um to water but ya can't . . . lol!

Mike

 

[C Younger]

Grter, thanks for reporting that. It amazes me how folks will decide how far a test should go and that ultimately they know better . . . untill they find out different. If flush to the other side was "good enough" then evey one of them would be great!!! Lol! I guess some folks really just don't want to find out that their "baby" isn't perfect so they just decide that it is. Not picking on you CY, you're not alone and I understand that one doesn't like to think anything is wrong with their open top.

As far as being able to drive the wedge completely in, . . . well that's the whole point!!!! You shouldn't be able to because the arbor isn't going to stretch (its bottomed out right?!), the barrel isn't going to stretch and the wedge should be HARD!! If you CAN drive it completely in, the factory didn't do its job!!! But you can fix it and still use you wedge!!! You'll never need another wedge but you probably will if you don't fix the problem!! Get it?!!! The whole point is SAVE your "baby".

You can bring um to water but ya can't . . . lol!

Mike

I never said flush with the other side was good enough. I said if tight, there was no reason to drive it in further. I mean, with a big enough hammer, it could be driven all the way through regardless of how hard the metal is.

It seems that because I haven’t whacked the wedge with a 5lb sledge to close the barrel cylinder gap my tests have been inadequate and I refuse to accept that it’s flawed. I’m not afraid of finding faults with my gun and will do the washer test when I return home. If I can improve the gun to where it lasts longer than I’ll do what I can since I view each one as an investment.

 

[SSBN617b]

Thanks for this thread, I sure learned a lot .
Mitch

 

[halfmoonclip]

Lots here I didn't know.
Some was my misunderstanding; had it in my head somehow that 'flush' meant on the driver's side, not the passenger's. Just enough to keep it snug seems wise.
As far as the wedge in the field for an easier strip, makes a certain amount of sense (the Remington solid frame and removable base pin made a lot more sense, but Sam'l didn't think of that). Assuming the Colt method of assembly, the wedge is far stronger in shear than if it were somehow screwed together.
The cartridge conversion Richards Mason is the only open top that gets shot anymore; the Old Army is gone, and the real Colt and Italian Walker are just wall hangers these days.
But I do want to shoot the conversion more, especially with 'full charge' wadcutters, loaded to the same levels as the old .38 RNL load.
Again, thanks guys. I will check the arbor length, but it really hasn't been a problem thus far.
Moon

 

[Zulch]

I'm probably beating a dead horse here. I am relatively new to BP revolvers so I am treading lightly here. A number of folks have told me that the wedge and it's ever important screw was primarily designed so that the soldier in the field would not accidentally lose/drop the wedge (never to be found) when it was necessary to clean the revolver. A soldier, under duress of battle, would be less likely to lose the wedge if still hanging on the barrel? Personally, that sounds very practical, simple and logical to me. A darn good design. Thanks, God bless our troops.

 

[45 Dragoon]

The wedge IS good for this setup. It accounts for any wear along the way.

Here's a thought !!! If you look at the Cimarron video about "adjusting the wedge on a 72 open top" you'll be dumber for watching it!!!! Here's a company going out of its way to tell you how to compensate for a suppliers inabilities!!! I couldn't believe it the first time I saw it!!

Mike

 

[Zulch]

The wedge IS good for this setup. It accounts for any wear along the way.

Here's a thought !!! If you look at the Cimarron video about "adjusting the wedge on a 72 open top" you'll be dumber for watching it!!!! Here's a company going out of its way to tell you how to compensate for a suppliers inabilities!!! I couldn't believe it the first time I saw it!!

Mike

HAHAHAHA....thanks Mike. I will go check it out.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Since when are Walker Italian replicas wall hangers, I must have missed the memo on that.

 

[Captain*kirk]

Since when are Walker Italian replicas wall hangers, I must have missed the memo on that.

Not in my house...

 

[Zulch]

Cap, yeah and I'll bet that you have a conversion cylinder for that horse pistol too.

 

[Captain*kirk]

Cap, yeah and I'll bet that you have a conversion cylinder for that horse pistol too.

"I reckon so..."

 

[C Younger]

Alright Mike, I did the washer test and you were right; there is room for a washer in front of the arbor. Thanks for being so persistent.

Once I found that there was an empty space, I used a loose ball of aluminum foil under the arbor and smashed it into place until I got my barrel cylinder gap to about 0.005”. The resulting aluminum disk was about 0.06” thick (just a tad thicker than the washer). Is this close to what you’re finding on the 2nd gen guns you’ve worked on?

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Not to steal Mikes thunder, I have seen as much as a 3/8 ths gap at the arbor and as little as none(Pietta). I don't think there is a standard, kinda like fingerprints. What do you say Mike?

 

[45 Dragoon]

C Younger, you are a good man sir!!! And thanks for checking !! If it had failed that test, you may in fact have had a "one inna million" (or whatever the no. is !! Lol). Any way, the .060" is probably fairly close, better to make one thicker and thin as needed. I have some spacers that I try to use first (some that didn't "quite" make the grade so to speak) and use them as I can they run .093", .083", .144" and .122". As Jackrabbit1957 says, there isn't any standard. AND you won't really "know" what you need unless you drive the wedge in and check the "clearance" each time you adjust.

On another forum that caters more to cowboy shooting, the topic of "thumb pressure" came up. So I did a little experiment with my own Dragoons. Sure enough, if you just use thumb pressure and measure the clearance and then drive the wedge in with more force (like Colts instructions say) . . . guess what? Yup, it closes down !!! So, bottom line, to have the SAME revolver each time you reassemble a Colts open top style revolver, it needs to be driven in so that it will impart "tension". That " tension " removes the clearance of the arbor/arbor hole fit (it's there or you wouldn't be able to insert the arbor) . . . something you're not strong enough to do with your thumb (I don't care who ya are!! Lol!!). So that's the how and why and "why" it's good to know about.

Thanks for putting up with me CY and thanks for the input Jackrabbit!!

Mike

 

[C Younger]

Not to steal Mikes thunder, I have seen as much as a 3/8 ths gap at the arbor and as little as none(Pietta). I don't think there is a standard, kinda like fingerprints. What do you say Mike?

I did the same test on my Pietta and was surprised to find that there wasn’t room for a washer. Since I got back into bp revolvers, I’d read from most sources that the Pietta was the poorest in fit and function of the two major Italian manufacturers. I can’t confirm this as I’ve been so happy with my Pietta’s that I’ve had no reason to try Uberti.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Well, the difference between the 2 companies is way more than "arbor length ". Pietta's arbors of the last dozen yrs (+ or -) are fine but the action parts are of '70's type but of modern make (MIM). They're sort of a " one trick pony " because everything is off the same basic frame. No pocket pistols, no horse pistols.
On the other hand, Uberti is the lone maker of pocket pistols and horse pistols. Their action parts are probably the finest ever put in an open top or Remington platform (Sam woulda had a fit for um !!!). They are cut steel (no MIM), accurate dimensionally across the board and pretty accurate with revolver contours. Don't let a short arbor keep you from the finest revolvers of these type (and the only in a couple of cases). The arbor fix is an easy fix.

Mike