THINK .38 SPECIAL (NOT .357)

[robhof]

Nothing wrong with 38 Special, I can get 1 1/2" groups at 10 yds all day with wadcutters and don't feel under gunned, I also have a 357 SM and 6" barrel that is a real fireball blower and painful after 20 or so rounds. The above is my go to gun for carry.

 

[mcb]

"Master of none"??
Isn't it the undisputed master of one-shot-stops?

I mean, I realize there's alot of variety a seasoned reloader can do with a 357 case...but as far I'm concerned the only drawbacks to 357 are noise and capacity. If something like a Coonan was actually as reliable as...say...a Glock, with as much firepower...well...I'd be ALL over that if I could afford it. Then I'd just carry 357 and 38sp all day every day and anything else would just be a side-order.

If it was the, "undisputed master of one-shot-stops" then why are there vanishingly few LEO's still carrying the 357 Mag? I don't believe many LEO and self-defense trainers are referencing one-shot-stop statistics much anymore. Paradigms have shifted and the idea of "one-shot-stop" no longer carries the weight it once did.

When I say jack of all trades and master of none I am talking broadly. Can you use a 357 Mag for pocket carry, CCW, LEO duty, woods carry, hunting, competition, etc. Yep, it can do just about all of those task reasonably well but for any one of those there is a better revolver cartridge that will outperform the 357 Magnum for that particular use. If you can only afford or only want to buy one revolver then a 357 Mag is probably not a bad choice but if you are going to own more than one revolver you quickly find that for any particular application you might use a revolver for the 357 Magnum is rarely the best cartridge for that specific use.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

Because multiple assailants in officer-related incidents are common, and they often carry 9mm Glocks which, while not as a potent as a 357, deliver potent enough/still potentially deadly rounds downrange at 5x the rate of a k-frame.

Police carrying revolvers is not the point or what I said at all (and a 357 revolver is still very popular for police backup for exactly the reason I said anyway.) When you run out of 9mm, it has authority instead of capacity. A different approach.

And I also said, if there was such a thing as a reliable autoloader in 357mag which could take mags of say, 12rds, then I'd carry one. And I am NOT a police officer. I'm a working class stiff who has to go into the city a few times a week and I spend a few hours on the trail each week too. A reliable 12+1 rd 357mag autoloader would address all my concerns, happily ever after, although I'd probably carry an sp101 for backup, using the same or similar ammo.

Regardless of whether "one-shot-stop" affects the modern paradigm as much as capacity and weight, it still holds a lot of water. There's a reason the floor of acceptable police rounds usually stops at 9mm, in the U.S. anyway. Because below that expansion becomes iffy and 9x19 depends totally on expansion to produce an acceptable level of one-shot-stops! A 357 IS a 9mm, just like a 9x17, 9x18, 9x19...but in that magic 9mm zone 357mag is king. You have to go bigger and heavier to compete with the terminal ballistics. What I said is I would want a reliable autoloader in versatile 357mag with a generous capacity of maybe 12+1. Something to double as a semi-auto trail gun as well as a street gun , without bringing 10mm or 9x19 into the picture (ferocious beasties vs hoards of angry humans, which shall it be today?)

It would be great if the autoloader could have been adapted to the 357mag without inventing a rare bottlenecked round with less power (357sig). Nevertheless, I have great respect for the latter and consider it along with 38 Super to be one of the most practical and realistic attempts. It would be nice if we didn't have to go there.

 

[Stophel]

While no one really doubts the effectiveness of the .357, there are many who think that the Marshall-Sanow "one shot stop" thing to be total bunk.

 

[Dibbs]

To each his/her own.

I prefer having the option of increased ammo availability of a .357. 38 Special is a good caliber, tho.

 

[mcb]

Because multiple assailants in officer-related incidents are common, and they often carry 9mm Glocks which, while not as a potent as a 357, deliver potent enough/still potentially deadly rounds downrange at 5x the rate of a k-frame.

Police carrying revolvers is not the point or what I said at all (and a 357 revolver is still very popular for police backup for exactly the reason I said anyway.) When you run out of 9mm, it has authority instead of capacity. A different approach.

And I also said, if there was such a thing as a reliable autoloader in 357mag which could take mags of say, 12rds, then I'd carry one. And I am NOT a police officer. I'm a working class stiff who has to go into the city a few times a week and I spend a few hours on the trail each week too. A reliable 12+1 rd 357mag autoloader would address all my concerns, happily ever after, although I'd probably carry an sp101 for backup, using the same or similar ammo.

Regardless of whether "one-shot-stop" affects the modern paradigm as much as capacity and weight, it still holds a lot of water. There's a reason the floor of acceptable police rounds usually stops at 9mm, in the U.S. anyway. Because below that expansion becomes iffy and 9x19 depends totally on expansion to produce an acceptable level of one-shot-stops! A 357 IS a 9mm, just like a 9x17, 9x18, 9x19...but in that magic 9mm zone 357mag is king. You have to go bigger and heavier to compete with the terminal ballistics. What I said is I would want a reliable autoloader in versatile 357mag with a generous capacity of maybe 12+1. Something to double as a semi-auto trail gun as well as a street gun , without bringing 10mm or 9x19 into the picture (ferocious beasties vs hoards of angry humans, which shall it be today?)

It would be great if the autoloader could have been adapted to the 357mag without inventing a rare bottlenecked round with less power (357sig). Nevertheless, I have great respect for the latter and consider it along with 38 Super to be one of the most practical and realistic attempts. It would be nice if we didn't have to go there.

You sort of prove my point in this post. None of the applications you mention does 357 Magnum rise to the top of the caliber choices by LEO or civilians. Even if your non-existent 12rd semi-auto 357 Mag where to exist it would suffer all of the problems the 10mm Auto suffers (and a few new problems to). Too big of grip circumference for many hands, and too much recoil for many shooters. And being a rimmed cartridge never feed as reliably. Again the 357 Mag is a capable cartridge that can be employed successfully in a variety of jobs but there are very few jobs were it is the best choice. This is supported by the facts, it is no longer the cartridge of choice of for LEO, CCW, hunting, competition etc. The only place it was ever King was with LEO and that was a sort lived reign. It is now very much a Jack of all Trades and Master of None.

 

[Armybrat]

Yeah a six inch tapered and pinned model 10 is a sweet shooter alright...
View attachment 944420

I bought one new just like that in the early 1970s. Never shot it and sold it to my brother who has kept it as a safe queen ever since.

 

[Scott.M]

I've had 6 inch Model 10's, should get another, who knows. The 5 inch Model 10-5 has never left so I guess that's telling me something.

 

[Mosin77]

I like .38 special. To me, it’s powerful and flexible enough for most realistic revolver uses. The only situation I could think I’d want to step up to .357 would be handgun hunting... which I frankly have no interest in. And obviously if I knew I was going into harm’s way with a revolver on my hip, a .357 would be a solid choice.... but in 2020, a Glock/Sig/Beretta/Walther/S&W with 18 rounds of 9mm hollowpoint on tap and a couple extra mags, would be my choice there as well, leaving the .357 with very little to do except look pretty and deafen me when fired.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

You sort of prove my point in this post. None of the applications you mention does 357 Magnum rise to the top of the caliber choices by LEO or civilians. Even if your non-existent 12rd semi-auto 357 Mag where to exist it would suffer all of the problems the 10mm Auto suffers (and a few new problems to). Too big of grip circumference for many hands, and too much recoil for many shooters. And being a rimmed cartridge never feed as reliably. Again the 357 Mag is a capable cartridge that can be employed successfully in a variety of jobs but there are very few jobs were it is the best choice. This is supported by the facts, it is no longer the cartridge of choice of for LEO, CCW, hunting, competition etc. The only place it was ever King was with LEO and that was a sort lived reign. It is now very much a Jack of all Trades and Master of None.

All I ever said was that it has the best record of one-shot-stops and I'd like it if someone with some skills could engineer a reliable autoloader that would have a formidable capacity. The 357 was used by LEOs in this country for a LONG time before the Smith59 and Glock came around, and then again many LEO's kept using 357/38 until departments forcibly phased them out throughout the 90s. That wasnt that long ago. The first wonder-nines took awhile to catch on. Then the entire world of crime & punishment in the USA switched simultaneously to the spray & spray philosophy.

 

[Kleanbore]

Then the entire world of crime & punishment in the USA switched simultaneously to the spray & spray philosophy.

That is a broadly held but incorrect misconception.

 

[shoebox1.1]

I don’t see any marksmanship in modern LEO encounters in the news ( I’m NO marksman ethier!) nor do I have bad guys coming at me coked up with a knife! Lotta rounds flying on both sides, but the bad guys can’t even hold the dang thing right

 

[Pat Riot]

Gee, you’d think there were a couple of threads going here, wouldn’t you?...

 

[Pat Riot]

I've had 6 inch Model 10's, should get another, who knows. The 5 inch Model 10-5 has never left so I guess that's telling me something.


View attachment 948242

That is a good looking revolver. Love the grips.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

I don’t see any marksmanship in modern LEO encounters in the news ( I’m NO marksman ethier!) nor do I have bad guys coming at me coked up with a knife! Lotta rounds flying on both sides, but the bad guys can’t even hold the dang thing right

Exactly. And that came about because people got autoloader with high capacity mags on both sides of the tracks. The whole attitude and approach changed with the technology, just as people dont memorize phone numbers anywhere near as much because their phones have built in contact lists with speed-dialing. Nobody can tell me technology doesn't completely change how much people actually take advantage of it rather than use their own talents and abilities. Gun battles, in both offensive and defensive roles, have been dramatically changed by that same principle. It simply takes more bullets these days to do what was done years ago.

I have known quite a few people with old scars from 9mm's. I know none with scars from 357's.

 

[Rexster]

Then the entire world of crime & punishment in the USA switched simultaneously to the spray & spray philosophy.

Sorry, but I disagree with the “entire” and “simultaneously” parts. And, I am not so sure that “spray & pray” was an actual philosophy, but perhaps a human tendency/weakness most apparent among untrained and undisciplined shooters. A certain type of individual is going to mag-dump at a threat, regardless of cartridge capacity.

I and my colleagues were not taught to mag dump, but some few of them certainly did so.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

Philosophy by default..."because you can". But military even uses that philosophy quite deliberately. It's called suppressive fire and it it becomes fully enabled with light rounds fired at a high rate from guns with high-capacity magazines, whether they be AR's on the battlefield or Glocks in the alleys of L.A. and Chicago. On the battlefield it gains an edge by wounding more than killing and distracting the enemy with wounded comrades. Gangs enjoy the same type of "fun". That's why as I said...I've met a number of living people with bullet scars in non-vital areas, all 9mm.

The vast number of police involved shootouts occur with bad guys spraying 9mm's at cops with cops shooting back with 40's at around the same rate. Most of those rounds never taste human flesh at all.

 

[UncleEd]

Absolutely nothing to do with reality or maybe it does. Remember
"Lethal Weapon" series and its introduction of the Beretta 92?

In several scenes, Riggs (Mel Gibson) mag dumps, illustrating
the gun's firepower and he does hit an adversary as a bonus.

But when his "old" partner uses his Model 19 revolver, he takes
one shot and downs an adversary at a considerable distance.

OK, now back to why people should really consider a .38
revolver over paying extra for a .357 revolver.

And let's not see any more about autos which are definitely
a passing fad.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

I like my Charter Arms 357 Bulldog with the 6in barrel. It's a little light for a 357 but still very shootable with stout loads. I'd probably change my mind if it was a 3in barrel. Usually I keep it loaded with the hottest 38+p's I can find and when hiking I swap them for 357's. The 6in unshrouded barrel brings alot more out of 38sp than most guns will, but makes also makes it wonderfully light and still totally manageable with 357's, even one handed.

So you see, I have no reason to cut 357 Magnum out of the deal just because I wouldn't push the envelope with that "poor man's gun" every day. My Bulldog is made in Stratford, CT in 1978...arguably the best run of the Bulldog line ever.

It's a modest 357 and a helluva 38 and that's the way I use it. Oh, and I paid about $250 for it.

 

[Kleanbore]

I don’t see any marksmanship in modern LEO encounters in the news

Would you expect something like bulls-eye shooting?

And that came about because people got autoloader with high capacity mags on both sides of the tracks. The whole attitude and approach changed with the technology,

Both LEO and civilian defenders are trained to shoot several shots rapidly into the upper chest area, if that's what's available as a target. Several, because that's what it takes to have any real chance of hitting anything critical; rapidly, because that is likely necessary due to the short time available.

Regarding, technology, the semi-auto has made makes effective defensive shooting a little easier for most shooters. But police training was not different in the days of the double action revolver. Officers trained to shoot several shots very quickly in double action fire, and to use speedloaders.

But military even uses that philosophy quite deliberately. It's called suppressive fire

That has its place in military combat--sometimes. In self defense? No. That's the stuff of screen fiction.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

Whether intended that way or not, firing lots of rounds is suppressive. By default, modern people using modern guns with hicap magazines and spraying entire magazines around because they can... changes how modern gunfights unfold. Most people that buy weapons with magazines pushing 20rds and more sometimes...usually intend to use their guns that way, by making swiss cheese out of targets whether they can actually pull it off or not . Maybe YOU dont. I sure dont. But many do. Both BG's and cops have collectively grown into that way of thinking. Even though a 9mm is less deadly than a 357, with an 18rd mag it has the ability to suppress others and prolong firefights until someone quits one way or another. So being able to keep up with that by following suit with suppressive fire has become the reason people have traded deadlier ammo for simply being able to suppress until they get lucky.

I have a friend who is a songwriter. He used to spend alot of time thinking about how to put a song together. Now his philosophy is different. He just keeps writing and writing and writing in a loose stream until he scores a "hit" (no pun intended). But the amount of paper he uses and mediocre yet "ok" songs he produces today is astronomical! Personally I liked his material alot more 30 years ago when we were in our 20's. But I guess sometimes you have to make sacrifices in quality hits to get ahead. Otherwise you'll be a one-hit-wonder and die before you write another.

In the world of ammunition, none does it all. Not 357 Magnum and not 9mm either. I don't agree with the 357 Magnum being a Jack-of-all-trades because currently it can't be employed in abundance the way 9mm can. However, it DOES have the best record of producing one-shot-stops than any other common handgun round that we could all buy at Wally World not long ago (i.e. 9mm, 40, 45, 22, 38sp, 357Mag, 380, etc). Out of all those 357Mag is king of one-shot stopping power, 45 being a close second followed by 40, 9, 380, 22. There's a reason why of all those on that list a smart person would choose 357 to go into bear country over the rest. Because in that lineup of most common carry calibers it is most capable there. I dont see the versatility of the 357 case for loading and reloading the same as being a Jack-of-all-trades. If anything, the 40S&W is! It has sufficient power to stop most adversaries if you are a good shot, and if one doesn't do it you can easily have 14 more without reloading. 40 makes the best balance of firepower, stopping power and reliability...so if anything I nominate 40S&W as the Jack of all trades because they even make revolvers chambered in it, and it was born of people trying to engineer something that would balance several other ideals together into one. It came as a result of a series of compromises, that's what a Jack of all trades is!

 

[Kleanbore]

Whether intended that way or not, firing lots of rounds is suppressive.

Your basis for that?

By default, modern people using modern guns with hicap magazines and spraying entire magazines around because they can... changes how modern gunfights unfold.

If you are referring to gangs, I agree.

LEO policy everywhere forbids "spraying" and uncontrolled fire. LEO and civilian training addresses rapid, controlled, effective shooting.

...it [the .357] DOES have the best record of producing one-shot-stops than any other common handgun round...

The data that so assert are highly suspect.

...357Mag is king of one-shot stopping power,...

There is no such thing as handgun "stopping power", and with service handguns, the "one shot stop" is a mirage.

A physical stop with a handgun results from the destruction of one or more key internal body parts. That's a function of the following:

• The precise location and entry angle wrt the target of each entry wound.
• The number of wounds.
• Penetration.
• Expanded bullet diameter.

The .357 will penetrate more deeply than a .380 and will expand better, but against humans, there is only so much penetration that one can use.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

Your basis for that?

If you are referring to gangs, I agree.

LEO policy everywhere forbids "spraying" and uncontrolled fire. LEO and civilian training addresses rapid, controlled, effective shooting.

The data that so assert are highly suspect.

There is no such thing as handgun "stopping power", and with service handguns, the "one shot stop" is a mirage.

A physical stop with a handgun results from the destruction of one or more key internal body parts. That's a function of the following:

• The precise location and entry angle wrt the target of each entry wound.
• The number of wounds.
• Penetration.
• Expanded bullet diameter.

The .357 will penetrate more deeply than a .380 and will expand better, but against humans, there is only so much penetration that one can use.

There's no such thing as KNOCK DOWN power. There is definitely such a thing as stopping power. It's true that penetration is the most important factor in terminal ballistics. If you shoot someone in the head with any common caliber, they are probably done. When it comes to torso shots, energy plays a much larger role although it doesn't Trump penetration. Wound channelling becomes very important in that you want it to be as deep and VIOLENT as possible. People have been killed by being hit in the chest by a baseball. That is shock. Shock comes from energy tearing or beating on something so bad that it can't function properly. A 22 could pass an inch from your heart and leave it unscathed. A 357 or a 9mm passing that close would have alot more effect on the heart or even if it didn't directly pass through it. That's the edge a.violent round like the 357 has. It's not a doomsday device but it definitely has a.real edge in messing up your insides, and of the common calibers we can get at a rural gas station it sits right up on top with a few others.

As a meat cutter, I.learned that using a sharp knife is safer than using a rugged dull one. You can more easily stitch a clean cut than a big tear. If you tear rather than slice, you're causing much more violent destruction.

Now I know that compared to rifles most handgun calibers are actually much closer to each other in effectiveness than some people will admit. But within the realm of common handgun calibers, the 357 has the capacity to produce more violent and destructive damage inside a person than most. Arguably, you can come close with 40S&W. But 357 takes the cake. That's all.

 

[Kleanbore]

There is definitely such a thing as stopping power.

Stopping "power"--using "power" loosely--is a function damage, and therefore of penetration and to a lesser extent diameter, and it is dependent on location and wound path.

When it comes to torso shots, energy plays a much larger role

What?

Wound channelling becomes very important in that you want it to be as deep and VIOLENT as possible.

You want it to be as deep as necessary, and no more

One bullet of the same type and expanding equivalently traveling the same path cannot be any more "violent" than another. If one has more kinetic energy, it will penetrate farther, and perhaps pass trough without having any more effect.

Do not confuse the recoil felt in the hand with the actual destruction of human bones and cardiovascular elements by cutting and crushing.

Study this.

https://archive.org/stream/fbi-hand...n-wounding-factors-and-effectiveness_djvu.txt

 

[Scott.M]

You also can't blanket state that a 357 will penetrate more deeply than a 380 and expand better.

More kinetic energy also does not ensure greater penetrate.