THINK .38 SPECIAL (NOT .357)

[shoebox1.1]

“However, it DOES have the best record of producing one-shot-stops than any other common handgun round that we could all buy at Wally World not long ago (i.e. 9mm, 40, 45, 22, 38sp, 357Mag, 380, etc). Out of all those 357Mag is king of one-shot stopping power, 45 being a close second followed by 40, 9, 380, 22.”

I agree

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I like 38 Special, but there's a lot of assumptions going on in here. Don't agree with a lot of them.

 

[Kleanbore]

I agree

Your reasoning?

 

[shoebox1.1]

All the studies I’ve seen. Not saying it’s only 357 that’s effective but I do believe in one stop situations it’s had a better record than others. Not that the others aren’t good, because they are. I don’t have links to any data I’ve seen at this time— basically it comes down to the same “general size” 30 cal slug with more powder behind it.

 

[Scott.M]

All I know is that if I'm walking out the door into a gunfight, a handgun will be the last thing I arm myself with.

 

[Kleanbore]

All the studies I’ve seen.

For a number of reasons previously discussed here at length in recent years, one really should not put any stock into them at all.

 

[shoebox1.1]

Point taken

 

[UncleEd]

Sorry this has turned into a caliber war. But be that as it may,
a recent study found that the differences between .38s, 357s,
.40s, .45s etc. has more to do with placement than anything
else. The lethality of one size or power factor over another
is reportedly negligible.

In other words, use what you shoot the best.

Now, back to saving money on .38s (forgetting
.357 models).

 

[Offhand McFlan]

You also can't blanket state that a 357 will penetrate more deeply than a 380 and expand better.

More kinetic energy also does not ensure greater penetrate.

Indeed, little rounds like 380 DO often penetrate more because they often expand less. A good HP 357 slug will do both with authority, causing more overall trauma across the board, through and through. A through-shot with a caliber like 380 might be ultimately very deadly, but it's "deep trauma" that causes biological organisms to shut down faster. In the CNS or heart or lungs is best...but if you didn't hit one of those, massive deep trauma is a real plus, causes more bleeding and renders muscles inoperative. That's why we say "one shot STOP" not "one shot KILL"...although the kill-ratio of 357 is also pretty darned good.

 

[Kleanbore]

it's "deep trauma" that causes biological organisms to shut down faster

"deep trauma" is a psychological phenomenon.

 

[Pat Riot]

Sorry this has turned into a caliber war. But be that as it may,

Now, back to saving money on .38s (forgetting
.357 models).

Exactly!

 

[Offhand McFlan]

"deep trauma" is a psychological phenomenon.

Certainly plays a role with most people. Ever cut a hand and have two fingers go numb? Try pulling a trigger with that. Now imagine your hip with a vicious hole torn through it and a leg going numb as you drop to the ground unable to aim faster than your opponent. That's not all in your head. And a 357 blazing at 1300fps will do it with much more authority than a 380 that you might not even feel initially. Two people who I met who had been shot with 9mm on the street said they didn't even feel it until a minute later. 9mm is usually closer to 38 ballistically than to 357. So that supports the case.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

The OP was basically..."should we forget 357 and focus on 38 to save dinero". I say no for the reasons I've said. I even exemplified MY 357/38 Bulldog which shoots both and was cheap and is very toteworthy. If that all invites such strong debate from others that it turns into a "caliber war" that's not on me!

I am just defending my position on 357. The OP didn't just ask about saving money on ammo, it asked about saving money on a gun with less capability. I don't believe you have to go there. There are many lightweight and cheap 357's that you can shoot both calibers from but still would probably shoot 38's 90% of the time.

If I found a really nice "38 only" that I liked for a good price, I'd likely buy it. But I'd prefer a 357. Another one I like is a Smith 60. Kind of light for a 357 but can do well with it if necessary. Just better off with 38's...

Some of the lightweight 357's I'm thinking of were also produced in 38-only because they are on the threshold. LCRx is another example. I wouldn't buy the 38 version to save 50 bucks. Hell no!

 

[Kleanbore]

Two people who I met who had been shot with 9mm on the street said they didn't even feel it until a minute later. 9mm is usually closer to 38 ballistically than to 357. So that supports the case.

No--anecdotes, not data.

The .357 has the same starting diameter and the same expanded diameter as the 9. Both make holes, and that's all they do. The greater energy may provide more penetration.

 

[Scott.M]

No--anecdotes, not data.

The .357 has the same starting diameter and the same expanded diameter as the 9. Both make holes, and that's all they do. The greater energy may provide more penetration.

Shoot a gopher with a 22lr 40gr bullet and then shoot another with a 1-8" twist 223AI slinging a 40gr bullet at almost 4k and tell me the difference.

 

[Kleanbore]

Shoot a gopher with a 22lr 40gr bullet and then shoot another with a 1-8" twist 223AI slinging a 40gr bullet at almost 4k and tell me the difference.

The difference between the velocity of the .223 and that of the .22LR is so great that the comparison does not apply to handgun loads.

That is well explained in the FBI paper that I linked above.

 

[Scott.M]

The difference between the velocity of the .223 and that of the .22LR is so great that the comparison does not apply to handgun loads.

That is well explained in the FBI paper that I linked above.

But to suggest that velocity DOES not matter is silly at best. I've yet to see a 9mm that can sling lead the speeds of a 357. So it all matters.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

Greater energy provides more than just penetration. In fact, slower bullets have been known to penetrate more deeply sometimes. Energy is spent in a number of ways when a projectile penetrates something, and one of those ways is through destructive force.

 

[Kleanbore]

But to suggest that velocity DOES not matter is silly at best. I've yet to see a 9mm that can sling lead the speeds of a 357. So it all matters

Have you studied the FBI analysis?

 

[Kleanbore]

Energy is spent in a number of ways when a projectile penetrates something, and one of those ways is through destructive force.

Within the range of handgun velocities, "destructive force" is the result of penetration.

What "force" are you imagining?

 

[Offhand McFlan]

I dont need to imagine OR read FBI papers when I can SEE a significant difference with my own eyes. This video below was done with measly FMJ rounds. The difference will be even more with expanding ammo, and another point I made is inadvertantly proven as well: The slower 45acp with LESS energy penetrated MORE. But the 357 is clearly a bit more vicious, and when youre dealing with human viscera, that can mean alot. The FMJ 9mm punched a slightly larger tha on 9mm hole. The FMJ 357 took significantly more meat with it. A 357 HP will CHEW YOU UP AND penetrate, and cause much more internal bleeding and loss of BP, tissue destruction and shock. This can and does make a difference as to whether BG drops, or winces and shoots back again before keeping over in another minute or two A FMJ 9mm might penetrate through a bear if it misses bone. It will do a bit less than a 357 semiwadcutter. There's a reason WHY people who live in bear country will suggest a 357 over 9mm ANY DAY. Hint: It's not because they look it up on the internet.

 

[shoebox1.1]

We can all agree.. “ALL CALIBERS MATTER” lol

 

[TTv2]

You also can't blanket state that a 357 will penetrate more deeply than a 380 and expand better

In general it will tho. The best .380 I've seen expand and penetrate is something like 14 inches and that's minimal expansion, there are .357 loads that expand to .7 inches and penetrate as deep or deeper. Some 158's are capable of going 25 inches and expanding.

 

[Scott.M]

In general it will tho. The best .380 I've seen expand and penetrate is something like 14 inches and that's minimal expansion, there are .357 loads that expand to .7 inches and penetrate as deep or deeper. Some 158's are capable of going 25 inches and expanding.

In general doesn't mean always, does it?

 

[UncleEd]

OK, OK, OK I'll get into this caliber war even though
that was never my intention.

Back in the day, yeah way back in the day, the .38
S&W Special meant a 158 grain round nose lead
bullet. Its major standard rival was the .45 ACP
which meant 230 grains round nose jacketed
bullet.

Studies showed the .38---back in the day--was
50 percent effective as a one-shot stop round.
And the .45---back in the day---was 65 percent
effective as a one-shot stop round.

That meant knowledgeable shootists of the day
knew that to stop the average man it took TWO
.38s. And those same knowledgeable shootists
knew it took ONE AND ONE-THIRD .45s to
achieve a stop.