Thinking about building another Rifle 338-06, 35 Whelen or 375

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Float Pilot

Float Pilot

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Kachemak Bay Alaska
I have a few 30-06s, a 350 Remington mag (my Sourdough Survivor Rifle)
a couple 45-70s and my 416 Taylor...

But as I get long in the tooth, I think about selling off some or giving them to the grand-kids...

But I need one all around general purpose Alaskan rifle for dangerous game and targets out to 400-500 yards...

So here is what I have been thinking.....

1. Controlled round feed.
2. Must field strip without serious tools. Including the bolt.
3. Back-Up iron sights (Like my Sourdough Rifle)
4. Not have a ludicrous amount of recoil and blast.
5. Be able to shoot less than MOA.
6. Enough close range power for Brown Bears (Griz to outside folks)
7. 300 yard game capable. sheep , caribou, moose.
8. 400 plus yards for other types of needs....


My Sourdough Rifle meets most of this except it has a couple of problems.
1. The Ruger M77MKII action does not let the bolt be disassembled without tools.
2. The 350 Rem Mag only holds three rounds in the magazine.
3. The stubby case neck does not like longer bullets with a better BC.

Thus I have been considering a 338-06 or a 35 Whelen (probably the improved with a better shoulder for head spacing)
Another option is the 9.3mm Mauser.

These would give me 4 to 5 rounds in the magazine.

At real life velocities there is not much difference between the 338-06 and the 35 Whelen imp within 325 yards.
The 338-06 does slightly better after 325 yards.

So I would have to use a M-70 action, Springfield (I have one laying around), Montana Rifle action or a M-98 Mauser...

Or I could just get a M-70 in 375 H&H... and put up with 3 round magazine capacity.... Unless I found an old FN Supreme or P-17 action....

Hmmm, thoughts to ponder.....

An thoughts from the peanut gallery?????
 
Wow float pilot you have a heck of a delima your tossing up 3 of my favorite cartriges . My pre 64 modle 70 375 hh holds 4 in the mag shes got a 25 inch tube pretty heavy.I have 2 98 muasers one 338 -06 and a 35 whelen ack imp.I have to say as a stopper on moose I prefer the 35 between the 2 muasers long range maybe the 338 but 35 with sierra 225 gamekings at 2700+ fps is very impressive. woodliegh makes a .358 310 gr bullet I havent used but should be a great thumper up close. All are great choices the 2 06 based rounds are true marvels of efficiency. No real looser in your picks kelly
 
In my 350 Rem Mag I finally settled on A-Square 280 grain partitions....

The 338 225 grain Accubond has a BC of .550
The 358 225 grain Accubond has a BC of .421

But if you run both through an exterior ballistics calculator at 2,700 to 2,750 fps they are within an inch of each other for the first 350 yards. Plus both have a point blank range (within a hand's width either side of the bore line) out to 275 yards.

At one time the 35 Whelen had the advantage of factory brass. But now you can buy factory brass for the 338-06....

Then I start thinking about the 260 grain 375 caliber Accubonds.... with a bc OF .473...
But, I have owned two 375 H&H rifles and neither would shoot near MOA... probably due to the belt and slight shoulder....

I did not know the old long magnum M-70s held an extra round in the mag...
 
I have a couple of .35 Whelens built on M98 actions that work quite nicely. I think the M98 is a great starting point for your project. I used VZ24's as the 'parent'.
 
Any of your options for cartridges are good, until you get to the long range target stuff. I guess I don't see any of them as what I would choose for target shooting.

For where you are, the extra magazine capacity of the 06 casing makes sense. The Brown Whelen wildcat provides a bit more velocity over rthe standard casing. ENough to make a difference? That is for you to decide.

Have you considered any of the Hawk cartridges? Basically blown out 06s necked to a variety of bore sizes.

http://www.z-hat.com/Handloader193.htm

Being a fan of the 405 WCF, the 411 Hawk Scovill got my attention.
 
I currently have a 338-06 and have had a 35 Whelen in the past. Of the 2 I like the 338-06 better. You can get 2900 fps with 200 gr bullets for smaller game and get pretty flat trajectory. For bigger stuff up close 250-275 gr bullets are available. There is also a much larger selection of good bullets.

To muddy the waters a bit the Alaska Fish & Game Dept. did a pretty thorough study of large bear defense back in the 1980's. They determined that the 458, 375, and 338 magnums worked the best. No surprise there, but the 30-06 with heavy 220 gr bullets was right behind the 338 and the 30-06 actally penetrated deeper in their tests than all but the 458.

Here is a link you may find ineresting, it is somewhat outdated because better bullets available today would change things a lot in my opinion. There is a chart on page 7 that sums things up pretty well without having to read the whole thing.

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152

In your shoes I'd probably skip right over everything else and go sraight to the 375. Any advantage the 35 Whelen or 338-06 offers over the 30-06 is minimal. In fact a 300 mag will outperform either, and do it with less recoil.
 
I have built a couple of .35 Whelens on both M98 and 1903 actions. The Springfield action is superior in many ways, particularly magazine length. To meet your criteria I would recommend the .35 Whelen Ackley Improved 40 with a 1 in 12 inch twist and a heavy 20 or 22 inch barrel. The standard 1 in 16 twist will not stabilize long heavy bullets which is what the .35 Whelen is made for. With my latest "creation" I can shoot 300 grain slugs at 2200 fps without pushing the pressures sky high. Accuracy is excellent out to 600 yards which is as far as I can shoot around here. The .35AI is a breeze to reload for any you can always shoot factory ammo if you run out.
 
I have lived in Alaska for almost 21 years and my number one all around rifle was a new modern stainless Rugger M77 mk2 in .338wm scoped with a 3x9x40 Trijicon Accupoint,replaced the stock with a Hogue overmolded rubber over fiberglass stock with aluminum bedding rails and for something heavier I use an older Winchester Model 70 .375H&H with another Trijicon but its a 1x4x20 on Leupold QR mounts, the rifle still has its flip up Safari sights. The scope uses a combination tritium and fiber optic rectangle on a post with an 85' ft field of view, my brush gun.
And in the last couple years I have become a dedicated fan of Barnes bullets, if loaded properly and matched with the right rate of twist they are very accurate, they are of course a much longer all copper bullet, they need some extra spin on them and are very devastating under 400 yards.

Like shooting with an explosive drill bit.
 
I have had a couple 338 Win Mags over the years. For some reason they just do not get me very excited. Maybe it is because a used to carry a 358 NORMA mag for 25 years or so as my go-to rifle. I had to sell that one 13 years ago to pay some unexpected bills... I sold off a couple 300 Win Mags at the same time...

I like how the 35 Whelen does not have a high velocity recoil... The same goes for the 375 H&H which is more like a 12 gauge recoil....

A couple years ago I made my eye-sight blurry while experimenting with warm loads in a 458 Lott, 450 Marlin is a lightweight and 378 Weatherby. The fancy eye Doc up in Anchorage told me to knock off the heavy recoiling stuff. My 416 Taylor is not very pleasant to shoot all afternoon either....

Of course my dad ( now in his 90s) never used anything larger than his 1903 30-06, because that was all he owned. And back in the late 1960s and early 70s I used a 7x57mm on just about every game critter up here, since it was all I could afford and nobody told me it was a little small.
 
Have you thought about wildcatting the 300 WSM? I have the 300 WSM/M70 and bought dies to open up the brass to 375 WSM. Years ago I was on a short mag forum and a forum member built up a 416 WSM (Montana action IIRC) and carried it on a successful African safari.

I also have a 338 WinMag, but a 338 WSM will work well in a M70, but the Browning magazines are too short for the 338 WSM, hence the 325 WSM compromise.
 
I heartily recommend the Remington 700 XCR II in .375 H&H. I set mine up by replacing the factory stock with a Bell & Carlson Medalist in Weatherby design. I find that the Monte Carlo and right cast-off makes managing recoil quite comfortable and, with a skim-bedded full bedding block, this rifle is a <0.5 shooter with my hand loads. I mounted a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 scope on Leupold QR bases and rings so I could ditch the scope and use the irons if desired and allow interchangeability of scopes with a 1.5-6x scope for likely closer hunting. In all, the XCR II finish on stainless will handle any climate and the .375 can be loaded with 250/260gr bullets (my preferred load is the Federal Premium with 260gr AccuBonds or those bullets loaded over 69.0 gr of RL 15) for North American anything and with 300 gr softs or solids for anything else on this planet.

I am also a CRF fan and have both Ruger 77s and Win M70s. I don't have African or Safari rifles from either...yet, but would equally recommend either brand based on my experience with them. I fired a friend's CZ Safari Express in .458 Win last week and like that one very well...they offer both 9.3x62 and .375...either is wonderful for all things North American. Nice wood, blued steel and good fit and finish, also with CRF. I don't think you can go wrong with any of these.

Good luck and best wishes for 2013.

FH
 
I have two M-700s left in the collection. A XCR tactical in 300 Win mag and a Titanium mountain rifle in 30-06. After having had extractor failures in the field with M-700s (also Howas and post 64 push feed M-70s).... I cannot get very excited about carrying them while I am solo.
 
4 to 500 yards??? I wouldn't even consider the 338-06 or Whelen, and probably not even the 375...

I'd want more velicity for THOSE ranges!

DM
 
4 to 500 yards??? I wouldn't even consider the 338-06 or Whelen, and probably not even the 375...

I'd want more velicity for THOSE ranges
Click to expand...
!

Well first let me say I have a personal ethical big game hunting max range of 300 yards. Except for mountain goat and Dall sheep, because of where they live...

But lets take a look at the velocities.

A 338 caliber Nosler 225 grain Accubond has a BC of .550
If fired at 2,750 fps, at 32-39 degrees F ( a good goat hunting temp where I live)
at 100 yards it is going 2,588 fps
200 yards = 2,432 fps
300 yards = 2,281 fps
400 yards = 2,137 fps
500 yards = 1997 fps

If sighted for 300 yards, the bullet path is within 5 inches up or down from the bore line out to 350 yards.



Then take a 375 caliber Nosler accubond...260 grain boat-tail with a BC of .473
If fired at 2,700 fps ( which is not max) it is still going over 2,000 fps at 400 yards. and it is within 5.5 inches of the bore line out to 350 yards.
 
Have you considered 7mm Mag? It's a relatively light recoiler compared to those you propose and there's nothing in NA that should walk away from 175 gr 2900 fps if put on target. It isn't in the diameter range of the others but the .284 bullet BCs are excellent and you will get awfully good penetration with the likes of the Berger VLD 168 gr that would be ideal for sheep. Just a thought.
 
I own and have owned a few 7x57mms, and a 280 Ackley Improved... ( A GREAT GOAT HUNTING ROUND)
But I have never owned a 7mm rem mag. You see a few of them up here, usually folks who moved up here and then sell them after their first hunt...
I just can't get myself excited about it.
 
RPRNY said:
Have you considered 7mm Mag? It's a relatively light recoiler compared to those you propose and there's nothing in NA that should walk away from 175 gr 2900 fps if put on target. It isn't in the diameter range of the others but the .284 bullet BCs are excellent and you will get awfully good penetration with the likes of the Berger VLD 168 gr that would be ideal for sheep. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

I've shot a LOT of big game with the .338-06, also shot some with the 350 Rem. mag. and the 375. IN THIS case, the 7 mag. is a much better choise, and i've say this from personal experience.

AND i've hunted plenty, all over Alaska, so i know what hunting is like there...

BTW, i still have a cabin in Caribou Hills...

DM
 
Not far from my place... I have lived here in AK since Eisenhower was the president.
A couple years ago I thought about buying an orphaned 7mm WSM Model 70... But someone else had the same idea...
 
Float Pilot said:
I have a few 30-06s, a 350 Remington mag (my Sourdough Survivor Rifle)
a couple 45-70s and my 416 Taylor...

But as I get long in the tooth, I think about selling off some or giving them to the grand-kids...

But I need one all around general purpose Alaskan rifle for dangerous game and targets out to 400-500 yards...

So here is what I have been thinking.....

1. Controlled round feed.
2. Must field strip without serious tools. Including the bolt.
3. Back-Up iron sights (Like my Sourdough Rifle)
4. Not have a ludicrous amount of recoil and blast.
5. Be able to shoot less than MOA.
6. Enough close range power for Brown Bears (Griz to outside folks)
7. 300 yard game capable. sheep , caribou, moose.
8. 400 plus yards for other types of needs....


My Sourdough Rifle meets most of this except it has a couple of problems.
1. The Ruger M77MKII action does not let the bolt be disassembled without tools.
2. The 350 Rem Mag only holds three rounds in the magazine.
3. The stubby case neck does not like longer bullets with a better BC.

Thus I have been considering a 338-06 or a 35 Whelen (probably the improved with a better shoulder for head spacing)
Another option is the 9.3mm Mauser.

These would give me 4 to 5 rounds in the magazine.

At real life velocities there is not much difference between the 338-06 and the 35 Whelen imp within 325 yards.
The 338-06 does slightly better after 325 yards.

So I would have to use a M-70 action, Springfield (I have one laying around), Montana Rifle action or a M-98 Mauser...

Or I could just get a M-70 in 375 H&H... and put up with 3 round magazine capacity.... Unless I found an old FN Supreme or P-17 action....

Hmmm, thoughts to ponder.....

An thoughts from the peanut gallery?????
Click to expand...

I was pretty much in the same boat as you about 20 years ago...at least with regards to the calibers. I wanted a rifle that would be my dedicated elk hunting rifle. I too wanted a controlled round feed, ease of maintenance, tough, backup sights and a durable non-reflective finish. Let me first say that if you're choosing between a 338-06 and a 35 Whelen it's a toss up in my opinion. Folks will quote better sectional density with this bullet or flatter trajectory with that, blah, blah, blah. There's simply not enough difference to matter. What most armchair ballisticians forget is that most all of us use rangefinders so what difference does it make if one cartridge is 2" flatter at 400 yds?

Anyhow, I chose the 35 Whelen because there are WAY more bullets available for it. Now before someone reaches for the mouse to flame me for that statement, I'll remind y'all that any bullet that'll work in a .38 or .357 will likewise work in the Whelen. So, if a fella is elk hunting and wants to pop a grouse, rabbit or squirrel for supper, or moose hunting and wants a hare or ptarmington, he can load 90 gr. or so lead bullets at .22 Short velocities in his Whelen and do so.

That being said, my father has a 338-06 (Remington 78 action) and the same in an Ackley (Commercial Mauser action) both of which I've shot alot helping with load development. I have deep respect for both cartridges and would head up the mountain with either for elk and never bat an eye.

Likewise he has a breathtakingly beautiful custom 9.3x62mm built on a CZ action. I've shot it quite a bit too, and it's very accurate. The only problem I see with the 9.3 is in order to get reasonable velocities so the trajectory compares with the 338-06 or the Whelen, one must shoot light for caliber bullets which of course typically have lower B.C.'s.

Back to the Whelen. I bought an old VZ24 rifle and used it for the action. It's an extremely slick action and I love it, but it lacks the longer magazine that allow bullets to be seated out.
I bought a .35 caliber Douglas blank with a 1 in 12" twist and a buddy chambered and barreled it. I chose a 1 in 12" twist so I could shoot heavier bullets. I installed an inexpensive Timney trigger and low safety and had the rifle bead blasted and Parkerized black. I then fitted a band type front sight on it then drilled and tapped it for an inexpensive Williams 5D receiver sight for back up purposes. I sighted the rifle with the receiver sight, marked the base and the slide, then took the slide out and keep it in my hunting pack. Never have had to use it. Finally I bedded it into a no name composite stock and mounted a Burris 4X Fullfield.

Here are a couple of shots where you can get an idea of what the rifle looks like:
PostableElkHunt20042100.jpg

bullrifle2.jpg

Gregbullred.jpg

The rifle has ridden many, many miles in a saddle scabbard, been banged around rocks and trees in the mountains and has more than once been full of wet, sloppy snow, yet it never rusts, never loses its zero and kills elk like the Hammer of Thor.

I shot one bull with 225 gr. Nosler Partitions but wasn't impressed with penetration. I switched to a Bcrnes .225 gr. TSX and have never looked back. It'll do 2700 fps with some loads out of my rifle with only a little over 60 grs. of powder (try THAT with a magnum!!) and penetration is great as is accuracy.

Here's my best target with this bullet:
35Ww225grTSX-1.jpg

This load/bullet combo ALWAYS groups under 1" @ 100 yds.

Here's one of the bullets that travelled from the anal orifice of a bull elk to the point of the right shoulder:
Elkbullet1smallest.jpg

This is the only time I've recovered one of these as the rest sail right on through. In fact I shot a bull a few years ago at 355 yds and the bullet hit him high in the left shoulder, breaking it, angled down through the neck and exited.

Another really good load is a 250 gr. bullet. Either the Speer of Nosler will do 2600 fps and while that doesn't sound speedy, the bullet has a relatively high B.C. (.450) and shoots pretty darned flat. Here's some graphic images of the lethality of the Speer and the damage it did to a bull at 44 yds.:
Bullethole.jpg

Shoulderdamage.jpg

I wouldn't fault a man for choosing any of these calibers as any difference is pretty much academic.

Good luck in deciding!

35W
 
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