Eh? How's that? How can they have 'pay stubs' but no SSN's? You mean taxes were withheld and paid to .gov without SSN's? Or maybe taxes were withheld and pocketed by unscrupulous employers, which is the same a 'working under the table'.
This illegal infestation is out of control
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DigitalWarrior
a) How does *their* desire for a better life strengthen us? Especially when it is at our expense?
b) The work they do is at our expense too in the form of depressed wages and jobs taken from Americans.
c) What cultural contributions? The Somalian's clitorectomies? Cinco De Mayo? Mexicans in AR demanding that 'horse-tripping' be legalised because it is part of *their* culture? Explain if you would.
Biker
a) How does *their* desire for a better life strengthen us? Especially when it is at our expense?
b) The work they do is at our expense too in the form of depressed wages and jobs taken from Americans.
c) What cultural contributions? The Somalian's clitorectomies? Cinco De Mayo? Mexicans in AR demanding that 'horse-tripping' be legalised because it is part of *their* culture? Explain if you would.
Biker
bingo!the companies cant make much of a profit and the ceo his 2 million xmas bonus if they have to pay ever growing high insurance premiums. It is cheaper for employers to hire illegals because of the safty issues should they get injured and the other premiums that have skyrocketed...not to mention taxes. they dont get pay stubs, the manager simply hands them cash at the end of the shift= extra help & no expenses cept wages.
so do they take a loss or hire illegalls to do the work without a papertrail and make more money? figure it out.
Invaders or Immigrants?
If someone comes across the boder legally and wanting to leave their old culture and country behind, and embrace America, they are IMMIGRANTS. And most of them will help make the country stronger.
If someone comes across the border ILLEGALLY and wanting only to exploit the wealth and benefits Americans have struggled for centuries to make, and hates America, what it stands for and it's culture and customs, they are INVADERS. Isn't that what INVADERS do: come across a border illegally, and then take over land and declare it is THEIRS??
Remember the LA billboard awhile back that said, "LA, Mexico"? That isn't IMMIGRATION. It's INVASION.
We should SEAL our borders, then welcome Immigrants who want to JOIN us, and fight against INVADERS who want to exploit us and take our land for their own country.
If someone comes across the boder legally and wanting to leave their old culture and country behind, and embrace America, they are IMMIGRANTS. And most of them will help make the country stronger.
If someone comes across the border ILLEGALLY and wanting only to exploit the wealth and benefits Americans have struggled for centuries to make, and hates America, what it stands for and it's culture and customs, they are INVADERS. Isn't that what INVADERS do: come across a border illegally, and then take over land and declare it is THEIRS??
Remember the LA billboard awhile back that said, "LA, Mexico"? That isn't IMMIGRATION. It's INVASION.
We should SEAL our borders, then welcome Immigrants who want to JOIN us, and fight against INVADERS who want to exploit us and take our land for their own country.
DigitalWarrior
Member
a. Their desire for a better life strengthens us because they engage us in voluntary commerce whereby each party benefits, or else would not do it.
b. Depressed wages are a symptom of macro-economic change. Low-Skilled Labor is inexpensive in the global economy. You mention "jobs taken from Americans", which seems a bit silly to be because a job does not belong to a person, but a person offers to do a job at the highest wage the market will bear. Similar prejudice has been demonstrated towards all immigrant influxes.
c. Mexican Food is pretty good. Day of the dead is fun too. I like their kinda funky traditions. I think that their sense of style and vernacular has influenced ours in a positive manner as well. They often have a strong family bond. Their girls are often still ladies. In addition, I think the best is yet to come, as they become more mainstream, they will have a more apparent effect.
b. Depressed wages are a symptom of macro-economic change. Low-Skilled Labor is inexpensive in the global economy. You mention "jobs taken from Americans", which seems a bit silly to be because a job does not belong to a person, but a person offers to do a job at the highest wage the market will bear. Similar prejudice has been demonstrated towards all immigrant influxes.
c. Mexican Food is pretty good. Day of the dead is fun too. I like their kinda funky traditions. I think that their sense of style and vernacular has influenced ours in a positive manner as well. They often have a strong family bond. Their girls are often still ladies. In addition, I think the best is yet to come, as they become more mainstream, they will have a more apparent effect.
DigitalWarrior
Member
In the interest of calm debate, I will supress my desire to laugh derisively at this comment.
Seriously, what do you mean by "exploit the wealth and benefits" exactly? Do you mean work and recieve pay?
What is America's Culture? Is is Gangsta Rap (yes), Is it Country Music (yes), Is it Janis Joplin (Yes), Is it Hippies (Yes), Is it Slave Owners (yes), Is it the Beatles (Yes)?
America's Custom is learning new Customs. America is the place where there is an Irish Pub Next to a British Pub, and there are no bombings. We are the melting pot, where Pizza, Steak, Kabob, and Chinese food are staples of the diet. We have kicked every immigrant around, then realized they have something to teach us, then welcomed them.
Knowing this I do not believe that they hate America, but believe that people who want to stop our countries dynamic nature do not understand it's history.
DigitalW
DigitalWarrior
Member
I should state though
That I do not like illegal immigration. It is bad for us to create laws which we do not intend to enforce. It undermines our credibility.
DW
That I do not like illegal immigration. It is bad for us to create laws which we do not intend to enforce. It undermines our credibility.
DW
2nd Amendment
member
Impossible to grasp the "argument". They come en masse, break the law to get here, break laws constantly while here, are paid via illegal means(even if paid by check), alter pay rates(willingness to work for absurd low wages that are not even legal, among other considerations) and no desire to become "Americans" but rather to get what they can.
Some of you folks need to get out of the 1800's and into the 21st century. You need to also be consistent, since some of the same people thoughtlessly defending the Invaders(did they get here legally? No? Invaders, end of discussion) are the same ones defending government control and power in every other area except this one.
It's blind and it's hypocritic. Moreover, the Apologist arguments aren't even logical or supportable. You rely on fallacies and strawmen and fantasy views and present them as reality, then denigrate the people who point out the aburdity of your arguments.
It's almost insane.
Some of you folks need to get out of the 1800's and into the 21st century. You need to also be consistent, since some of the same people thoughtlessly defending the Invaders(did they get here legally? No? Invaders, end of discussion) are the same ones defending government control and power in every other area except this one.
It's blind and it's hypocritic. Moreover, the Apologist arguments aren't even logical or supportable. You rely on fallacies and strawmen and fantasy views and present them as reality, then denigrate the people who point out the aburdity of your arguments.
It's almost insane.DigitalWarrior
Member
I think that it is important to say that I think that illegal and bad are often not the same thing in a badly governed place.
If we had looser restriction (like work visas and stuff), then they would come legally, but we have said that you come illegally or not at all to many of them.
I would be suprised if you could bring up anyplace I was in favor of more money or power for FedGov.
Do you realize that you just did everything you are accusing me of? Please do not attack my argument by calling me blind, hypocritical, and almost insane. It is kind of weak. Please instead attack my argument which you say isn't even logical.
El Tejon
Member
Riley, SSN #s are going for $50 a pop around here. Don't know about where you are, but should be cheap anywhere.
Digital, yeah, makes more sense from a policy perspective, just to make all the "illegal invaders" into "legal guest workers" with a stroke of a pen rather than the current ploughing of the sea policy.
Digital, yeah, makes more sense from a policy perspective, just to make all the "illegal invaders" into "legal guest workers" with a stroke of a pen rather than the current ploughing of the sea policy.
longeyes
member
Thou hast said it.
Anyone want to make odds on how long before internecine conflict breaks out? California taxpayers are being asked to pay, through the nose, to educate Mexican kids--and the infinite supply of highly-paid admistrative staff that hovers over them so charitably.
longeyes
member
The problem of illegal immigration has the same solution as homeland security: the broad empowerment of American citizens. It is not going to be solved by trickle-down autocracy. Of course, the empowered American citizen is Government's worst nightmare.
I understand that. I used to work in property management, an when I ran a credit check on a prospective tenant, the credit reporting company would tell me if the SSN was legitimate or if it hadn't yet been issued (usually the case with illegals).
An employer who accepts a bogus number and then withholds and sends in payroll taxes under that number is notified by the Social Security Administration that the number is no good, or is issued in a different name than reported. So the employer finds out in short order that he has hired an illegal, unless he does pre employment screening, in which case he knows beforehand.
If these employers are withholding taxes knowing the employee is an illegal with a bogus SSN, are they then pocketing the withheld amounts?
2nd Amendment
member
DW, you aren't the only person in this thread nor the only person i was adressing. The arguments are illogical, hypocritical and rely on fantasies and strawmen. You are right in that "the law" isn't necessarily the same as what is "right". In this case, however, it is.
But, since people won't obey the law let's relax the law? Since people won't recognize the border let's just do away with it? Even though they have never paid into the tax base we'll give them benefits. We won't :banghead:
Here's a better idea: Shoot anyone caught in the act of crossing without proper papers. Period. Assign a 20 year penalty to anyone found using a bogus SS# if they do get in. Assign a 20 year penalty to anyone caught employing illegals(and pocketing the deductions). Restrict all health benefits and welfare. Let the Invaders pay their own way, then afterwards incarcerate them for 20 years and then send them back where they came from.
But, since people won't obey the law let's relax the law? Since people won't recognize the border let's just do away with it? Even though they have never paid into the tax base we'll give them benefits. We won't :banghead:
Here's a better idea: Shoot anyone caught in the act of crossing without proper papers. Period. Assign a 20 year penalty to anyone found using a bogus SS# if they do get in. Assign a 20 year penalty to anyone caught employing illegals(and pocketing the deductions). Restrict all health benefits and welfare. Let the Invaders pay their own way, then afterwards incarcerate them for 20 years and then send them back where they came from.
Jammer Six
member
I have a better idea.
Shoot anyone caught smoking in a public place. Period.
No the rich use the subsidized labor to make themselves more rich and the
American taxpayer gets screwed once again.
I have worked side by side with legal and illegal workers 30 years ago most
were hard working and tried to "blend in" much of this has changed we now
receive the worst of what Mexico has, most with less then an 8th education.
How does this help America, we continue to export jobs to the third world
while taking in more people then all other countries combined, like it or not
no country can survive this long term.
Only if your hiring slave labor, do you.?
Glock Glockler
Member
We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border
Ok, so I guess no immigrants are criminals?
I guess no immigrants are loafers on the dole?
It's amazing how all criminals and dolers are native born Americans and all immigrants (legal and illegal) are the ones supporting the country. Something must be wrong with my brother's vision when he fixes up illegals in the ER and their total hospital bills run in the 6 figure range, which the taxpayer picks up. I guess something is also wrong with my senses, because I guess I don't pay taxes to support that nonsense, it's probably because I am a criminal and a doler, after all I must be because I was born here.
Ok, so I guess no immigrants are criminals?
I guess no immigrants are loafers on the dole?
It's amazing how all criminals and dolers are native born Americans and all immigrants (legal and illegal) are the ones supporting the country. Something must be wrong with my brother's vision when he fixes up illegals in the ER and their total hospital bills run in the 6 figure range, which the taxpayer picks up. I guess something is also wrong with my senses, because I guess I don't pay taxes to support that nonsense, it's probably because I am a criminal and a doler, after all I must be because I was born here.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Lots of people with cancer want to believe otherwise, and many more want to believe in quick and easy cures, too.
Waitone
Member
I don't have the reference to a story within the last few weeks but it seems a group of criminal aliens entered the US across the southern border and made their way to a city in NM where they as a group boarded a plane to Chicago. They flew from Chicago to Raleigh, NC. During the flight a LEO overheard them jiving about being illegals and headed for their job once they land. The LEO called ahead and they were busted upon leaving the plane.
I drew several conclusions based on the article
--Boarding a plane in NM would require identification. If they got US ID's in Mexico there is evidence of criminal enterprise. If they got US ID's in the US there is evidence of criminal enterprise.
--They boarded the plane enmass. Politically correct passenger screening evidently took place.
--They took a flight to Chicago ($) begging the question of who booked the flight and who // how was it paid for.
--They took a flight from Chicago to Raleigh ($) same kind of comments.
--They felt free to talk about their current immigration status evidently because they either felt no one would understand their language or they were not brief on when to STHU.
--There was employment waiting for them in the RDU area.
A series of questions leap to mind the first of which is why did they not simply trail the CA's to their new employer and then arrest his kester. Didn't happen because the federales and states have no desire to crack down and employers had no incentive to do so.
This one little story shows me there is a wide ranging criminal conspiracy afoot consisting to body shops south of the border, coyotes to cross the border, facilitators in transportation, finance, documentation, employment, and law enforcement. All this is being done in violation of US sovereignty and law code.
Here we have a situation whereby agents of power in this country simply decide it inconvenient to obey the law and therefore elect not to obey duly constituted law. How long will it be before those same agents of power decide it is convenient to imposed self-generated provisions which they will then enforce as if it had the force of law? What we are watching happen over criminal immigration is as dangerous to life, liberty, and property as anything I've seen in my short life.
I drew several conclusions based on the article
--Boarding a plane in NM would require identification. If they got US ID's in Mexico there is evidence of criminal enterprise. If they got US ID's in the US there is evidence of criminal enterprise.
--They boarded the plane enmass. Politically correct passenger screening evidently took place.
--They took a flight to Chicago ($) begging the question of who booked the flight and who // how was it paid for.
--They took a flight from Chicago to Raleigh ($) same kind of comments.
--They felt free to talk about their current immigration status evidently because they either felt no one would understand their language or they were not brief on when to STHU.
--There was employment waiting for them in the RDU area.
A series of questions leap to mind the first of which is why did they not simply trail the CA's to their new employer and then arrest his kester. Didn't happen because the federales and states have no desire to crack down and employers had no incentive to do so.
This one little story shows me there is a wide ranging criminal conspiracy afoot consisting to body shops south of the border, coyotes to cross the border, facilitators in transportation, finance, documentation, employment, and law enforcement. All this is being done in violation of US sovereignty and law code.
Here we have a situation whereby agents of power in this country simply decide it inconvenient to obey the law and therefore elect not to obey duly constituted law. How long will it be before those same agents of power decide it is convenient to imposed self-generated provisions which they will then enforce as if it had the force of law? What we are watching happen over criminal immigration is as dangerous to life, liberty, and property as anything I've seen in my short life.
Jammer Six
member
And then how long before they write their own laws, and govern themselves?
At that point, everything will be completely higglety-pigglety.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I have a bit of difficulty with the phrase "strengthens us". I read about the crime statistics ion California involving the illegal aliens, and that's not much strengthening. I read about the closing of some 64 hospitals in the LA Basin due to bankruptcy, and the potential closing of 24 more, and the administrators say it's due to the laws concerning emergency rooms and illegals' non-pay. I read about the amounts of money for the schools, generated by people with several kids and a $20,000/year income. Schools cost some $5,000 and more, per kid, per year.
When it's all added up, I see a lot of weakening. I always figured that when I lose money, I get poorer, not richer. Same for a country, seems like to me.
The situation in Texas varies only in degree, not kind, from California. Same for Arizona, per their newspaper articles; "only" $1 billion per year.
That doesn't even count the money sent out of the US and not invested here: $40 billion per year to Mexico; dunno about others.
Art
When it's all added up, I see a lot of weakening. I always figured that when I lose money, I get poorer, not richer. Same for a country, seems like to me.
The situation in Texas varies only in degree, not kind, from California. Same for Arizona, per their newspaper articles; "only" $1 billion per year.
That doesn't even count the money sent out of the US and not invested here: $40 billion per year to Mexico; dunno about others.
Art
rhubarb
Member
I'm 100% American gringo. I live in South Texas. It is a fact of life that there is a large segment of the population here that is illegal. I have worked with people who I knew were illegal aliens. I have hired them knowingly. So what if it's 'illegal?' If the gummint doesn't care to stop them, I'm gonna put them to work.
The United States of America have always attracted the most ambitious. Maybe not always the brightest or richest or most accomplished, but the ones who want to take advantage of uppertunity to improve their lives. Most people in the world recognize our country as the premier place to make their lives better. I know that was the case in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries when my ancestors came here from Germany. The English who were here probably thought of them as beer swilling kraut eaters who weren't worthy of this fine land. I think that the very act of coming to America to work to improve one's life is the essence of what it takes to be American. The very desire to improve is a respected trait here and possession of that trait coupled with the wherewithal to pick up and leave one's own country to come here is, to me, admirable.
That said, I think we should absolutely shut down our borders and make legal immigration simpler. I don't advocate shooting border trespassers on sight. That seems to much a reversal of communist policy in East Berlin. I do believe that we must completely control who enters our country. We must not let drug runners in. We must not let terrorists in. We must not let deadbeats in. We must have a clear-cut policy and back it up. Right now we don't have anyone in Washington or anywhere in the Border Patrol with the balls to stop illegal immigration.
If we didn't have welfare to start with, immigrants couldn't abuse it.
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