Too much power - to be practical ?

[Haycreek]

IMHO, the resonable maximun handgun power needed, is in the range of .357 mag, 45 ACP or the equivilent of a good 44 special, or a 44 mag loaded down to 900 or 1000 fps. The simple fact a full house 44 mag is certainly effective, but too much of a handful for self defense "follow-up" shots. After all, it is placement, placement and placement ! [in the heat of the moment, a follow-up shot is often the norm] What do you think?

 

[makarovnik]

You're right!

Yes, the .357mag, 44 special, and .45 acp are probably the most effective and practical handgun rounds for self defense. Anything more will probably overpenetrate. I think the 10mm, 40S&W, .357sig and 9mm are also good with the right ammo. Since it's warm weather I carry a 9x18 or .380acp. With these "boderline" calibers shot placement is even more important. True firepower is probably a combination of caliber and the number of rounds immediately at you disposal. That is why I certainly respect people that argue the 9mm is as effective as the .45acp. One shot stopping power is only one way to determine effectiveness. I would guess that 17 rounds of 9mm in the chest is just as effective as 7 rounds of .45acp, but I will admit I'm no expert. I think there are a lot of great handgun calibers out there and a lot of people think theirs is the best. That's okay! If you use it well then it's probably effective.

 

[Working Man]

I'd say even full house 44 mag is certainly an option depending on the person.
Hand size and strength would not have to be anything above and beyond to
properly use a .44 mag for defense.

That being said, the ones you have listed would fit a broader scope of people.

 

[Cousin Mike]

I like the idea of a .44 Mag for SD, I plan on buying one for that purpose, and frankly I like the idea of overpenetration. 2 big holes bleed more than one big hole, and more blood loss = quicker incapacitation. Not that the .45ACP, .357 Magnum or .44 Special would fail to penetrate, but if someone want's a .44 Mag at full power for SD/HD, I can't say I'd take issue with that.

As for double-tapping, with a .44 Magnum (or anything else that's as vicious, like a .45LC), I don't imagine a second shot would be necessary 99.9% of the time, provided that you hit the target with the first shot. That size/weight of that bullet at that speed would overwhelm most any human, and I'm inclined to say I really don't give a damn what ballistics articles quote as fact. 900+ ft/lbs of energy dumped into a human chest in a nearly half-inch wide cartridge is more than enough to put pretty much anyone (who isn't out of their mind on meth) on their butt. If there's any question as to what just happened, they'll know when they look down and see that spectacular wound.

Besides, everyone knows that with a .44 Magnum, the sound and pressure from the blastwave alone might kill someone if you miss.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[pax]

No need for rapid follow-up shots ...

Assuming you don't miss.

Assuming there's only one attacker.

Assuming that if you do hit, it's a solid hit rather than a marginal one.

Assuming he's not out of his mind on meth or some other substance.

... Sure are a lot of assumptions there, aren't there?

pax

 

[xphunter]

Another concern with some of the big boys if it is to be used for house SD is overpenetration through walls.

 

[Working Man]

No need for rapid follow-up shots

Rapid follow-up shots can be done with a .44 magnum with a little practice.
No.... it is not for everyone but it will work for many.

Another concern with some of the big boys if it is to be used for house SD is overpenetration through walls.

Over-penetration through a person is more likely with a .357 than a .44 mag
and as the box-o-truth (sp?) has shown most any rnd will go through interior
walls.

 

[atlctyslkr]

Once again the 38 Special gets no respect! Alot of people rely on it as a resonable power load. LSWCHP loads can really do some damage.

 

[xphunter]

Good thoughts. Smaller surface area=deeper penetration.
For house use I was thinking about some of the specialty frangible bullets(magsafe? and others -don't remember their names)

 

[Brass Fetcher]

I hear that someone has tested some of these calibers in gelatin...

http://www.brassfetcher.com/.44 Magnum.html

Out of the three loads that I tested, I remember two of the three going all the way through the block and then about 1" into a polyester bullet catching box. Over penetration might be an issue with this round if the bullets fully expand, and is guaranteed to be if no or minimal expansion takes place.

That said, I can control a .44mag (mountain gun), not being that good with handguns or that strong. The recovery time is a lot like that with 3" magnum 12 guage - greater than the smaller loads, but not unmanageable when you take into account that the target you fired the round at is very likely to be out of the picture if the aim was decent.

 

[MCgunner]

But bein' this is a .44 magnum, the most powerful handgun ever made, and could blow your head clean off, you just gotta ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk......

Of course, my favorite is.....

Well, we just can't let you walk outta here.

"Whachoo mean WE, man?"

Smith...and Wesson...and me.

Hey, if it's good 'nuf for Harry Callahan...

 

[MTMilitiaman]

People often say the 10mm Auto is too powerful or has too much recoil. I think back to all those .357s on all those hips for so many years and can't understand where the logic comes from. The .357 did a lot of officers just fine. It may take a little more practice to become profeccient with, but the only thing that keeps me from practicing is the money needed for components and the time it takes to load them. The 10mm Auto is the ballistic twin of the .357, just with slightly more frontal diameter, and 2.5x the capacity in my Glock 20. The Glock does an excellent job of controlling recoil. I've seen a 16 year old girl do just fine with the Glock and Double Taps. It feels like a .45 in a 1911 to me, maybe a +P, but in fact my Glock is more comfortable to me to shoot than a 1911 just because the wider grip distributes recoil forces over a larger portion of the hand, and the Glock sits slightly lower in the hand, which gives it less leverage to torque your wrist.

I blame people getting too caught up in split times. Follow up shots are important, but 1/100 of a sec isn't going to make much difference compared to a wider and deeper wound channel. At any rate, I made my choice and am happy with it. The 10mm may never have the split times of the 9mm, but that is perfectly fine with me. There are some things the 10mm can do that the 9mm can't

 

[MCgunner]

There are some things the 10mm can do that the 9mm can't

And, concealment in Texas summer heat ain't one of 'em. A .44 is a bit bulky IWB, too, not to mention heavy. There's a time and a place for everything, I reckon. I don't carry my 4" .357 concealed, nor my .45 very much. I can only carry either under a coat or vest. I ain't wearin' no coat today, can tell ya that, not even a light vest!

 

[Sunray]

"...big holes bleed more than one big hole, and more blood loss..." Bullets incapacitate(kill) through shock, not blood loss.
The biggest problem with using a large, heavy recoiling cartridge is that it may be too large and heavy in recoil to practice with regularly. For example, practicing with .38 Specials and using hot .357's for carry doesn't work. You must practice with the ammo you intend using to be able to shoot well with it.
"...Smaller surface area=deeper penetration..." Um, no. Velocity and a bullet that stays on one piece equals deeper penetration. The bullet's construction being more important.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you really have to STOP someone with any handgun (vs intimidating them into submitting--whether or not that involves shooting them) then you should PLAN for it taking more than one shot.

A smaller caliber is usually easier to shoot fast.
A larger caliber usually means slower shot recovery times.

Shooting a caliber that is too small can get you killed.
Shooting a caliber that is too large can get you killed.

Shooting too fast can get you killed.
Shooting too slow can get you killed.

It's worth noting that actually having to damage someone to the point that they can't continue to attack is a pretty rare occurrence. Not saying that you can count on that happening in your case, just pointing out a fact.

Pick something in the "reasonable"** range of defense calibers and make sure you ALWAYS have it on you and that you can use it competently if required.

**Reasonable means:

Not so small that it's highly likely to be ineffectual. Not so large that you can't get off a second shot in a reasonable time frame. Not so small that the gun is impossible to get a grip on. Not so large that you'll be heavily tempted to leave it at home. etc. etc. etc...

 

[Haycreek]

Too much power- to be practical ?

I will be the first to agree that ONE well placed round from a full power 44 magnum is enough. I have hunted with a 44 magnum at times for the past 40 years. As for penetration, I once shot a running 300 pound boar hog, near the root of his tail, the round went through his body length ways, coming out on his forehead, shattering a three inch circle of skull, then passed completly through a full grown sow, dropping both in thier tracks. We have lots of wild hogs on our ranch, I have shot many, and everyone of them dropped in thier tracks. No walking wounded. The full power 44 mag will drop just about anything. I have used the 44 mag for years either hunting or silhouette competion, the 44 mag is one of my favorite calibers- but- the 48 ounce Dan Wesson handles the full power loads much easier than the 4 inch S&W 629, that I sometimes carry with REDUCED loads. I have read where the "hit" percentage" for law enforcment, is not 100 % My point is, while one shot from a 44 mag will likely be enough, A 'lighter load" in a 44 mag or perhaps old slabsides in 45 ACP or a 357 mag revolver [in a steel frame] will likely be a better choice when the chips are down and your pulse rate is 140.

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

As for double-tapping, with a .44 Magnum (or anything else that's as vicious, like a .45LC), I don't imagine a second shot would be necessary 99.9% of the time, provided that you hit the target with the first shot. That size/weight of that bullet at that speed would overwhelm most any human, and I'm inclined to say I really don't give a damn what ballistics articles quote as fact. 900+ ft/lbs of energy dumped into a human chest in a nearly half-inch wide cartridge is more than enough to put pretty much anyone (who isn't out of their mind on meth) on their butt. If there's any question as to what just happened, they'll know when they look down and see that spectacular wound.

To hell with those pesky facts. Let's just shoot the biggest thing we can find.

FWIW, a while back, a guy was shot with a .44 Magnum, IIRC, the bullet was a 240 grain JSP. Shot was low in the chest, not too far from the stomach. The bullet completely penetrated, and failed to expand at all. When the cops arrived, he was sitting on the curb and calmly waiting for the ambulance to come. I don't know if he lived or died, but he sure wasn't incapacitated by a CoM hit.

 

[Crosscut]

Make a selection

No matter what you decide on for your gun of choice, put in the required range time, do a little homework on when you can and when you shouldn't pull the trigger. Self Defense in some states is defined different, and handled different, from murder to justifiable homocide, just be sure, and have a damn good reason when you make the choice to pull that trigger. It will change your life forever.

 

[Blacklabman]

I prefer the .357mag for night stand and winter CCW.
For CCW on summer. a S&W M&P .40 get's the call.
I also admit that at times, a 5" 629 and/or a 6" 29 sit on the night stand with speedloaders.
For this they are loaded with Speer .44Spl 200gr Gold Dot HP'S.
Other times Speer .44mag 210gr Gold Dot HP's.

The 200gr .44Spl is no worse that a .357mag 158gr JHP's(my favorite). These rounds offer little, to no recoil.


The BlackHills 240gr loads, and the Garrett Hammerhead 310gr loads for left Deer and Elk hunting.

 

[Jamie C.]

I've seen a video of two guys having a shoot-out with .44 mags, about 10 years ago. ( This was on network TV, as best I can recall... I don't know who was shooting the video. Anybody else remember seeing it? )


Both took one or more hits and kept right on fighting, and moving around the vehicles they were firing around.

One of them did finally collapse and die, but it certainly wasn't a "one-shot stop". The whole thing lasted several minutes.


Me, I think I'll leave the .44 magnum to dirty harry...


J.C.

 

[MCgunner]

I will be the first to agree that ONE well placed round from a full power 44 magnum is enough. I have hunted with a 44 magnum at times for the past 40 years.

Yep, nothin' like a little experience killing things to sort out the BS, eh? You can talk all the smack you want about multiple holes and follow up shots, but the magnums, and the bigger they are, the more power they got, kill like rifles on game at short range. The two deer I've shot with .357 magnum (okay, one don't count, used a carbine) dropped like a sack of taters. Deer are harder to kill than sober humans. Now, a human on dust I don't know, but a common robber is very thin skinned.

With the .44, though, I'd want a VERY fast opening hollow point bullet for self defense. Most bullets are made for hunting and penetration in that caliber, but you might could find a bullet designed for .44 special. Heck, I guess I could buy .44 specials intended for self defense, pull the bullets, and load 'em over a healthy charge of W296, if nothing else. But, dumping 1000 ft lbs in the chest cavity just HAS to be devastating.

Myself, I still would like a .41 mag titanium tracker, though someone said it's been discontinued. I'd carry that little cannon IWB occasionally. I can handle the recoil, not a problem. Truth be told, I have a lot of confidence in the .357 mag out of a 4" or longer barrel, though. A little hunting will give you confidence in your load. I don't hunt with wimpy auto pistol rounds, they're just a necessity for carrying concealed. I'm sure they're enough, though. I don't wanna find out, but I'm sure they're plenty for self defense. I don't dwell on whether my 9mm will stop a man, I just practice.

 

[Majic]

The simple fact a full house 44 mag is certainly effective, but too much of a handful for self defense "follow-up" shots.

The simple fact is it may be too much for you, but certainly not for everyone.

 

[Cousin Mike]

... Sure are a lot of assumptions there, aren't there?

In my opinion, no. Not for me. First of all, I'm sure I could touble-tap a .44 Magnum with ease, but facts are facts. You show me any evidence someone took a .44 Magnum COM and kept doing whatever it was that got him shot, and I'll back down. Sitting on the curb, calmly, x-amount of time later doesn't count - I bet he fell when he got shot or quit messing with whoever shot him. Someone shooting themselves doesn't count. People survive being shot and stay conscious all the time. Show me someone who took a .44 Mag to the chest and then killed or otherwise continued to attack the person who shot them. Also, where I live, folks don't do meth... I live in a city and meth is a 'rural' drug, to be nice about it.

Also, I don't sell drugs, keep large amounts of cash in my house, consort with the mafia, or go around messing with people... so what on earth would more than one person be trying to kill me for? Maybe it's because I live somehwere that serious crimes happen everyday, but there's a method to the madness, pax. Most of us who live in places where things actually happen know that if you mind your business, don't look like prey, and don't show off all your money everywhere you go, you'll be fine... and people won't mess with you. Some of you Pacific Northwest types have some pretty wild imaginations sometimes, which is funny to me, because nothing ever even happens in that part of the country.

I'd also be inclined to say 99% of the time, if the perp has buddies, seeing him shot (and hearing a .44 Magnum) will probably change their minds about their activities - but someone would have to come in and say I was being unreasonable because people's houses get broken into by mobs of dozens of meth-monkeys all the time.

Those are reasonable assumptions pax, just as reasonable as the assumptions you make on your website about female shooters. I personally think you give good advice that would apply to 95%+ of your target audience. But there's always the 5% that don't see things anywhere near the same way you do. Doesn't make you unreasonable for assuming, it makes you right 95% of the time. That's the way I look at things.

.44 Magnums kill 1000lb. animals... I don't think many humans can stand up to them. Of course, some can and will. But most simply wont.

Bullets incapacitate(kill) through shock, not blood loss.

Please tell me this is a joke, and that you could never be serious about posting something like that in a forum where others can read it.


Edited to make an additional point.

 

[JohnKSa]

I'm sure I could touble-tap a .44 Magnum with ease, but facts are facts.

Facts are facts.

Scenario one: People miss under the stress of getting shot at and the bigger the caliber the longer the recovery time between shots. You miss your first shot. The fact that you whack the guy and he stops immediately upon your second shot won't eliminate the holes he's put in you while you're getting your gun out of recoil.

Scenario two: Criminals don't always work alone. You hit on your first shot but his buddy tags you before you can recover and shoot him. Maybe you would have gotten him first if you were carrying a hot-loaded .38spl instead of just counting on your first shot to solve the whole problem.

There are lots of reasons you might need a second or third shot in a defensive scenario, and the bottom line is that you will NOT be as fast with those follow-up shots as you would be with a gun that recoils less.

Not saying your skills are deficient, it's just a simple fact. There's a reason that you don't see people shooting full house .44mag in the action revolver sports--it's the same reason that 9mm is handicapped by the rules in IPSC. Same reason Rob Leatham says he can shoot a 9mm faster than a .45ACP. Smaller calibers can be shot faster.

The simple fact is it may be too much for you, but certainly not for everyone.

The original statement is about follow-up shots and there's no debating it. .44mag will recoil more than a typical defensive pistol and that's going to either slow follow-up shots or it's going to degrade the accuracy of follow up shots.

Obviously, there has to be a balance. Going to a .22LR because you can shoot VERY fast with it is pretty much the same problem but in the extreme opposite direction.

You show me any evidence someone took a .44 Magnum COM and kept doing whatever it was that got him shot, and I'll back down.

Stranger things have happened. Here's a guy who kept fighting after a mortal chest wound--from a GRENADE!

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/1998/b10061998_bt521-98.html

"When the unit became pinned down, he led his men forward before he suffered a severe chest wound from an enemy grenade. Charlton refused medical attention and led another daring charge despite being mortally wounded."

He's going to get a ship named after him.

Even a rifle or grenade wound to the COM is not a guarantee of immediate cessation of hostilities.

 

[LeonCarr]

Take a look at the Linebaugh Seminar Penetration Tests at www.handloads.com to get an idea of how much the heavy handgun rounds can penetrate.

IMO the .41/.44/.45 and up cartridges are great for hunting, but with full power loads overpenetrate too much for self defense unless the bad guys have four legs . Also, most factory loads, even the JHPs, are designed to penetrate game animals, and will typically penetrate a human completely with minimal tissue disruption. Fast follow up shots with the full house loads are tough also, and you will need that capability in a gunfight. If the bad guys will line up for you in a single file line four or five deep, the .44 Magnum will be about perfect .

Don't get me wrong...the big boys will work, but I think there are better choices for self defense against the two legged animals.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr