Super Sneaky Steve
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The 125 JHP is still king, but it will be interesting to see how the .327 performs on real live people.
Torn between revolver and auto
- Thread starter robinkevin
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Black Butte
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The solution to your predicament is simple: one of each. If you want a couple of real "workhorses," get a Glock pistol and a Ruger revolver.
If you want to impress the ladies, get a Colt Python.
If you want to impress the ladies, get a Colt Python.
ColtPythonElite
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Super Sneaky Steve
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The Colt Python is also an excellent zombie gun.
jad0110
Member
Autos can suffer from the following: bent or otherwise damaged mag feed lips, worn mag springs, broken ejectors (had that happen on a Taurus 9mm, totally solidified the slide to the frame), out of spec/worn extractors, broken barrel cams/links (where applicable), crud in the works preventing the slide from going fully into battery, timing issues (often tied to mag problems), limp wristing (true, operator induced), etc.
So either can crap out.
I've had much fewer crap outs with revolvers, and the worst crap out I experienced happened with an auto (the aforementioned Taurus 9mm turning into a paperweight). That said, I still enjoy shooting autos and may carry my CZ-75 once I prove it's reliability. I just trust revolvers more based on my own personal experiences.
Properly cared for, quality example of either should provide years of trouble free use.
woad_yurt
Member
My two cents:
If you want one of each, I strenuously recommend a 4" S&W K-frame and a Hi-Power. The .38 SPL K-frames cost a bunch less than the .357s, btw, and do a pretty good job. If you want some extra oomph, there's always Buffalo Bore ammo. If you're going to get into reloading, know that the .38 SPL dies and stuff also do .357s. I recently got a Hi-Power and it's the only semi-auto that feels as good in my hand as a K-frame.
If you want one of each, I strenuously recommend a 4" S&W K-frame and a Hi-Power. The .38 SPL K-frames cost a bunch less than the .357s, btw, and do a pretty good job. If you want some extra oomph, there's always Buffalo Bore ammo. If you're going to get into reloading, know that the .38 SPL dies and stuff also do .357s. I recently got a Hi-Power and it's the only semi-auto that feels as good in my hand as a K-frame.
jmstevens2
Member
Find a buddy who has both and go out and shoot. You will decide what you want first. The other will come along too.
Let me say, I am a 1911 guy. Been shooting them since I enlisted in 1980. LOVE them! I however do not carry one anymore except when I want to show off my 1911. (BBQ gun) The reason being, as much as I have used them, when shooting the Glock and or .357 a lot I have caught myself pulling the 1911 on the range and cussing when I realize that I tried to fire it without sweeping off the safety. For me, as much as I have done it, when I go back and forth, I sometimes forget which I have in my hand. I do not want this to happen in the proverbial dark alley.
For these reasons, I now switch back and forth between the .357 and Glock for simplicity and safety reasons. I shoot my 1911, just don't carry it much now.
As to caliber, I am fond of the magnums, you can use the specials to train or plink with and can even reload them with the same die if you want to adjust it each time you switch. If not, get 2.
If you get a Glock, I suggest any of the .40S&W models. If you want to use .357SIG, you get a $109 Lone Wolf barrel and use the same mags. If you want to shoot 9mm, same thing, but it feeds more reliably if you get the 9mm mags too. If you want the .40, just shoot.
I think it is SIG that has one like that too, but I don't follow them.
If you want to shoot lead non jacketed bullets, or reloads in the Glock, you need an after market barrel because of the type of rifling they use. So that makes the conversions for training make even more sense.
Glock has some really good discounts too if you are a LEO, Firefighter, or EMT. I think military can use that discount too. If not, you can join the Glock shooting sports club or whatever it is called and get that price.
I priced a Glock 22 new with standard sights last week for $415
I really am not a big Glock fan, but for what they are, how I can adapt them, and what I can get them for, I just can't justify anything else for me right now.
Let me say, I am a 1911 guy. Been shooting them since I enlisted in 1980. LOVE them! I however do not carry one anymore except when I want to show off my 1911. (BBQ gun) The reason being, as much as I have used them, when shooting the Glock and or .357 a lot I have caught myself pulling the 1911 on the range and cussing when I realize that I tried to fire it without sweeping off the safety. For me, as much as I have done it, when I go back and forth, I sometimes forget which I have in my hand. I do not want this to happen in the proverbial dark alley.
For these reasons, I now switch back and forth between the .357 and Glock for simplicity and safety reasons. I shoot my 1911, just don't carry it much now.
As to caliber, I am fond of the magnums, you can use the specials to train or plink with and can even reload them with the same die if you want to adjust it each time you switch. If not, get 2.
If you get a Glock, I suggest any of the .40S&W models. If you want to use .357SIG, you get a $109 Lone Wolf barrel and use the same mags. If you want to shoot 9mm, same thing, but it feeds more reliably if you get the 9mm mags too. If you want the .40, just shoot.
I think it is SIG that has one like that too, but I don't follow them.
If you want to shoot lead non jacketed bullets, or reloads in the Glock, you need an after market barrel because of the type of rifling they use. So that makes the conversions for training make even more sense.
Glock has some really good discounts too if you are a LEO, Firefighter, or EMT. I think military can use that discount too. If not, you can join the Glock shooting sports club or whatever it is called and get that price.
I priced a Glock 22 new with standard sights last week for $415
I really am not a big Glock fan, but for what they are, how I can adapt them, and what I can get them for, I just can't justify anything else for me right now.
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oldfool
Member
my standard answer is always, for those who have owned none of either, yet are not completely new to firearms, which you are not
"KISS"
if you think you are an autoloader person, get a full size all steel 1911, 45 acp
if you think you are a revolver person, get a full size all steel DA/SA 38/357, preferably 6"
in either case, be willing to pay a little more for a well established brand/model with an established reputation for quality manufacturing
if in serious doubt as to which is best for you, get the revolver 1st, always, because it is simple, versatile, and easy to learn with, flexible learning opportunities re: both SA and DA modes.
neither may prove to be, in the long run, the optimal gun for you
neither is a "for everything " handgun
But either choice represents a platform which has an undeniably well proven track record, and both represent the most controllable, shootable handguns per category
Until you get some round count under your belt, and learn to hit well with one of these, forego the multitude of other temptations out there, and you will be better served when it comes time to choose "my next gun". There will be a "next", that is virtually guaranteed, you know.
"KISS"
if you think you are an autoloader person, get a full size all steel 1911, 45 acp
if you think you are a revolver person, get a full size all steel DA/SA 38/357, preferably 6"
in either case, be willing to pay a little more for a well established brand/model with an established reputation for quality manufacturing
if in serious doubt as to which is best for you, get the revolver 1st, always, because it is simple, versatile, and easy to learn with, flexible learning opportunities re: both SA and DA modes.
neither may prove to be, in the long run, the optimal gun for you
neither is a "for everything " handgun
But either choice represents a platform which has an undeniably well proven track record, and both represent the most controllable, shootable handguns per category
Until you get some round count under your belt, and learn to hit well with one of these, forego the multitude of other temptations out there, and you will be better served when it comes time to choose "my next gun". There will be a "next", that is virtually guaranteed, you know.
OP
OP
robinkevin
Member
I have decided to get a Autoloader... really can't say why just seems the best for me at this time. However after more research I have gone more towards a High Power platform over 1911 for the DA/SA action. Currently looking into a few other options also but thats a whole other topic in autoloaders.
Thanks for all the replies!
Thanks for all the replies!
dprice3844444
member
gunbrokers has some nice 4 inch smith model 65's for sale.great handguns.if your going to shoot exclusively big 357 loads,686. glock also makes a 357 sig,kills 2 birds with 1 stone
dprice3844444
member
jad0110
Member
Be advised that the HiPower is a SA mechanism, like the 1911. If you are interested in a DA/SA auto with a similar feel to the HiPower, I highly recommend looking at a CZ-75. These models are available in SA only, DA only and most commonly, DA/SA versions with either a manual safety or a decocker. IIRC, the CZ-75B is a DA/SA with a manual safety and the BD model is also a DA/SA style, but with a docker instead of a manual safety.
EdJennings
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If you want a bullet proof 9mm in DA/SA, right now you can still get S&W 5906's for around $300. They are all stainless, extreamly reliable, and durn near indestructable. The ones I have shot are not bullseye guns, but they are pretty accurate for a service style gun.
NM Mountainman
Member
Except for defense against bears, the semi-auto is the better handgun for SD.
I am a revolver guy who prefers shooting large bore revolvers to any kind of center fire semi-auto. But when it comes to SD, I don't kid myself into believing that a revolver is better. I consistently choose a semi-auto for self defense except when I am hiking in an area with known problem bears.
Revolvers can definitely be effective self defense weapons. ( For decades, I carried a S&W model 19 with 4" barrel as my primary SD weapon.) But regardless of whatever revolver you choose or prefer for SD, there is a highly reliable semi auto available which is just as easy to conceal and carry, which is just as powerful and effective shot for shot, which is simple and easy to learn to operate and shoot, which shoots with good combat accuracy, which holds more rounds, and is quicker to reload.
In addition, the semi-auto is generally easier to field strip and clean and is often less expensive than a good quality revolver. The revolver can be an effective and useful SD weapon, but in most SD situations the semi-auto pistol is a better choice.
This is known and understood worldwide by all military armed forces, almost all LEO agencies, most self defense trainers, and most civilians who carry a handgun for SD. To pretend that this is a controversial topic open to discussion because some of us just happen to like revolvers is foolish. The question has been thoroughly investigated and settled for decades.
Except for a few specific situations, the semi-auto is a better SD weapon than a revolver.
I am a revolver guy who prefers shooting large bore revolvers to any kind of center fire semi-auto. But when it comes to SD, I don't kid myself into believing that a revolver is better. I consistently choose a semi-auto for self defense except when I am hiking in an area with known problem bears.
Revolvers can definitely be effective self defense weapons. ( For decades, I carried a S&W model 19 with 4" barrel as my primary SD weapon.) But regardless of whatever revolver you choose or prefer for SD, there is a highly reliable semi auto available which is just as easy to conceal and carry, which is just as powerful and effective shot for shot, which is simple and easy to learn to operate and shoot, which shoots with good combat accuracy, which holds more rounds, and is quicker to reload.
In addition, the semi-auto is generally easier to field strip and clean and is often less expensive than a good quality revolver. The revolver can be an effective and useful SD weapon, but in most SD situations the semi-auto pistol is a better choice.
This is known and understood worldwide by all military armed forces, almost all LEO agencies, most self defense trainers, and most civilians who carry a handgun for SD. To pretend that this is a controversial topic open to discussion because some of us just happen to like revolvers is foolish. The question has been thoroughly investigated and settled for decades.
Except for a few specific situations, the semi-auto is a better SD weapon than a revolver.
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NM Mountainman
Member
Deleted
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NM Mountainman
Member
The .357 mag 125 gr JHP never was the #1 SD load.
Quote from Super Sneaky Steve: "The 125 JHP is still king..." I assume you are referring to the .357 mag 125 gr JHP load.
I wish this myth would die a quick and painless death. The 125 gr JHP or SJHP load in a 4" barrel .357 mag was and is an effective self defense load. But it was never "the king" or "the #1 best man stopper."
During the era when many LEO's carried .357 revolvers, there were few loads in any caliber in common use by LEO's which would reliably expand with the JHP bullets commonly available at that time. The 125 gr .357 load was one of the few in common use which generated enough velocity from a 4" barrel revolver to expand effectively and fairly reliably. It often fragmented (separated jacket and core) upon impact, and a single torso hit often resulted in an immediate cessation of threatening behavior by the bad guy.
But it often failed to penetrate very deeply, which often resulted in spectacular failures to stop the bad guy quickly. Many state troopers and federal agents distrusted the 125 gr load because of its lack of reliable penetration. Many of them preferred the 158 gr lead SWC loads.
The 125 gr JHP was one of the most effective loads commonly available to LEO at that time, but there were other loads in less common use which were just as good or better. The Win Silvertip 145 gr JHP, the Speer Lawman 140 gr JHP, and the Hornady Frontier 140 gr JHP are examples of .357 loads which delivered most of the expansion of the 125 gr JHP loads and most of the penetration of the 158 gr loads. In addition, they didn't cause problems with flame cutting like the 125 gr loads, and they were often the most accurate loads in many revolvers (particularly the 140 gr loads.) Although in less common use, these loads were probably the best all around revolver ammo then available for LEO and SD use.
The .45 ACP 200 gr JHP "flying ashtray" loads were also very effective at that time. There is no evidence whatsoever that the "flying ashtray" load was either more or less effective than the .357 125 gr JHP load.
The myth that the .357 125 gr load was some kind of ultimate man stopper or "#1 rated load for one shot stops" became widely accepted after Marshall and Sanow's research was published in the 1990's. Sorry, but the M&S research (and other similar research) is seriously flawed and statistically invalid. It is not capable of providing valid and reliable evidence that one load is more effective than another, except in extreme cases.
During the last 10 years, all of the major ammo producers have begun producing LEO and SD ammo which meets FBI specs as measured by standardized testing in gelatin. A comparison of the gelatin test results reveals that there is nothing special about the .357 125 gr JHP load which makes it stand heads and shoulders above many other loads available in 9 mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, and .45 ACP. Many loads in the standard service pistol calibers provide just as much expansion (while delivering more than adequate penetration) as many current .357 125 gr JHP loads.
IMO, the .357 125 gr JHP load is not, and never was "the king" of SD loads. There is no reliable and valid evidence which proves otherwise.
Die, pernicious and ubiquitous myth! Die!
Quote from Super Sneaky Steve: "The 125 JHP is still king..." I assume you are referring to the .357 mag 125 gr JHP load.
I wish this myth would die a quick and painless death. The 125 gr JHP or SJHP load in a 4" barrel .357 mag was and is an effective self defense load. But it was never "the king" or "the #1 best man stopper."
During the era when many LEO's carried .357 revolvers, there were few loads in any caliber in common use by LEO's which would reliably expand with the JHP bullets commonly available at that time. The 125 gr .357 load was one of the few in common use which generated enough velocity from a 4" barrel revolver to expand effectively and fairly reliably. It often fragmented (separated jacket and core) upon impact, and a single torso hit often resulted in an immediate cessation of threatening behavior by the bad guy.
But it often failed to penetrate very deeply, which often resulted in spectacular failures to stop the bad guy quickly. Many state troopers and federal agents distrusted the 125 gr load because of its lack of reliable penetration. Many of them preferred the 158 gr lead SWC loads.
The 125 gr JHP was one of the most effective loads commonly available to LEO at that time, but there were other loads in less common use which were just as good or better. The Win Silvertip 145 gr JHP, the Speer Lawman 140 gr JHP, and the Hornady Frontier 140 gr JHP are examples of .357 loads which delivered most of the expansion of the 125 gr JHP loads and most of the penetration of the 158 gr loads. In addition, they didn't cause problems with flame cutting like the 125 gr loads, and they were often the most accurate loads in many revolvers (particularly the 140 gr loads.) Although in less common use, these loads were probably the best all around revolver ammo then available for LEO and SD use.
The .45 ACP 200 gr JHP "flying ashtray" loads were also very effective at that time. There is no evidence whatsoever that the "flying ashtray" load was either more or less effective than the .357 125 gr JHP load.
The myth that the .357 125 gr load was some kind of ultimate man stopper or "#1 rated load for one shot stops" became widely accepted after Marshall and Sanow's research was published in the 1990's. Sorry, but the M&S research (and other similar research) is seriously flawed and statistically invalid. It is not capable of providing valid and reliable evidence that one load is more effective than another, except in extreme cases.
During the last 10 years, all of the major ammo producers have begun producing LEO and SD ammo which meets FBI specs as measured by standardized testing in gelatin. A comparison of the gelatin test results reveals that there is nothing special about the .357 125 gr JHP load which makes it stand heads and shoulders above many other loads available in 9 mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, and .45 ACP. Many loads in the standard service pistol calibers provide just as much expansion (while delivering more than adequate penetration) as many current .357 125 gr JHP loads.
IMO, the .357 125 gr JHP load is not, and never was "the king" of SD loads. There is no reliable and valid evidence which proves otherwise.
Die, pernicious and ubiquitous myth! Die!
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briansmithwins
Member
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- Aug 1, 2005
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- 4,631
I've seen way more revolvers die on the firing line than self loading pistols. Plus, the majority of auto failures were over tuned 1911s that just didn't work right.
Most of the other auto faulires could quickly be cured by running the slide.
Of revolvers that I've seen go down, most required tools and time to get running again. Including my GP100 that locked up tighter than a bank vault when a flap of primer metal blew into the firing pin orifice.
Glocks are ugly, soulless machines (which is why I own and carry a Sig) but they are cheap, reliable, and accurate enough for practical use.
BSW
Most of the other auto faulires could quickly be cured by running the slide.
Of revolvers that I've seen go down, most required tools and time to get running again. Including my GP100 that locked up tighter than a bank vault when a flap of primer metal blew into the firing pin orifice.
Glocks are ugly, soulless machines (which is why I own and carry a Sig) but they are cheap, reliable, and accurate enough for practical use.
BSW
sirgilligan
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- Dec 21, 2010
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- 895
I have a list of firearms I will get. I have a price already associated to each. The list is prioritized.
When any of the firearms in the top three positions becomes available for the price I want I get it.
While I wait for the items to come available, I keep stashing away the cash.
In 9mm's:
I currently have a CZ 85B. I love it.
I have a couple of Browning Hi-Powers. I love them.
I have a S&W 659. It is a tank. My first gun I bought for myself. Queued to go to my oldest son.
When any of the firearms in the top three positions becomes available for the price I want I get it.
While I wait for the items to come available, I keep stashing away the cash.
In 9mm's:
I currently have a CZ 85B. I love it.
I have a couple of Browning Hi-Powers. I love them.
I have a S&W 659. It is a tank. My first gun I bought for myself. Queued to go to my oldest son.
OP
OP
robinkevin
Member
I should of been more clear... I am looking at the High Power "Platform" which includes the CZ75 which was based off the High Power, however I have also seen FEG and Arcus High Power clones that operate as DA/SA. I really like the CZ but need to handle one before I decide to go that route as the low slide seems like it would be hard to rack, but then again I have heard that it is not by many people, next in line for my eye is the Arcus which seems like a well made HP clone with DA/SA, still researching this pistol atm.
sirgilligan
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- 895
The hammer spring on my BHP's are so stiff that they are actually harder to actuate than the CZ 85B.
BlindJustice
Member
robinkevin - is this your first handgun?
you mentioed not mindinng a Double Action trigger pull
is that in reference to a Revolver or a Semi-auto which
could be DA ( first shot ) then Single Action for subsequent
shots. or DAO Double Action Only.
Randall
-
you mentioed not mindinng a Double Action trigger pull
is that in reference to a Revolver or a Semi-auto which
could be DA ( first shot ) then Single Action for subsequent
shots. or DAO Double Action Only.
Randall
-
BlindJustice
Member
Robinkevin
The CZ 75B and variants are not related to the Browning Hi-Power
They share a similar look in profile but except for both having a double
stack magazine and the way the barrel pivots, the slide on the CZ 75B
come from the Sig 210 and the trigger is completely different
That siad, I have Revolvers and semi-autos
S&W 617 .22 LR
S&W 625 .45 ACP
S&W 1911 .45 ACP
S&W 60 .357 Mag 3" Bbl.
and
CZ 75B 9mm Luger although last I checked at the CZ USA site
they now offer it in .40 S&W as well.
DA/SA with the manual thumb Safety
Uber reliable and accurate and in 9mm Luuger it's about the least
expensive centerfire cartridge that's still viaable for HD/SD
There's also a .22 LR conversion kit for the 75B
If it's your first handgun it would be an excellent choice
so you won't get to big a dent in the wallet
Randall
The CZ 75B and variants are not related to the Browning Hi-Power
They share a similar look in profile but except for both having a double
stack magazine and the way the barrel pivots, the slide on the CZ 75B
come from the Sig 210 and the trigger is completely different
That siad, I have Revolvers and semi-autos
S&W 617 .22 LR
S&W 625 .45 ACP
S&W 1911 .45 ACP
S&W 60 .357 Mag 3" Bbl.
and
CZ 75B 9mm Luger although last I checked at the CZ USA site
they now offer it in .40 S&W as well.
DA/SA with the manual thumb Safety
Uber reliable and accurate and in 9mm Luuger it's about the least
expensive centerfire cartridge that's still viaable for HD/SD
There's also a .22 LR conversion kit for the 75B
If it's your first handgun it would be an excellent choice
so you won't get to big a dent in the wallet
Randall
Reloading sux for an auto (in more ways than one). I have only 1 auto for that reason a .22. They throw your brass all over heck and you can easily plan on losing 5 or 6 per box of 50. Yes, this boy is a cheapskate with a tired back, and if you want to waste your life bending over looking for brass... then by all means buy an auto.
briansmithwins
Member
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- 4,631
Life's too short to spend your hours digging in the dirt for expended cases and chained to a reloading bench.
OTOH, I do shoot cheap (9mmP) calibers for a reason.
BSW
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