Trading in a .45 for a 10mm

[Ardent]

Is it worth it? I've been giving it some serious thought lately. I really like the 10mm, and it seems the logical step to take when a flatter trajectory and more power are wanted out of a 1911. Right now I shoot a Kimber Stainless II and I am considering the new Kimber 10mm as a replacement. If I could get over my distaste for Glocks I would give them some serious thought, as they seem to be the foremost offering in 10mm. I must admit a ported and factory trigger worked Glock may not be a bad thing. Thanks for weighing in.

Ardent

 

[PO2Hammer]

Can you afford to buy a G-20 without selling your Kimber .45?
It's always nice to have variety.
It took me a long while to warm up to Glocks and learn how to pull their triggers right. But after getting it down, I really love my G-20. I've owned most of the Glocks over the years and the G-20 is Glocks best/most accurate pistol. Porting shouldn't be needed as the G-20 handles recoil very well.
There are quite a few advantages to the Glock, it has proven it can stand up to the 10mm over the long haul, all the aftermarket accesories you could want, do it yourself gunsmithing, feed reliability....
I bought a .40s&w conversion barrel and shoot about half 10mm and half .40s&w. It's more accurate with .40s&w than a G-35 I had.
A few spare parts, a rusty nail to detail strip it with and some ammo will keep it going for many years to come.

 

[cratz2]

I think PO2 gave the advice I would give... If I had a 45 Kimber I was happy with, I'd probably rather keep it and buy a Glock 20 if possible rather than trade in the Kimber for a 10mm Kimber... You can always sell the Glock later or trade it in towards a Kimber 10mm.

And I agree that I'd skip the porting. I'm not an accomplished heavy recoil shooter and I've shot the unported G20 and the G29 with Georgia Arms Shear Power loads and I'd rather have the unported version unless you're going purely for race game stuff.

As for the actual original question... What are you hoping to do with 10mm that you can't do with your +P 45ACP? I like the 10mm very much. If I were going to have a custom built 1911, I'd get a 9x23 or a 10mm before I'd get a 45ACP but other than hunting or bragging rights, I can't think of many reasons to lose money going from a 45ACP to a similar gun in 10mm... unless it's just to have something a bit less popular.

 

[Majic]

Take a look on the used market for a Smith. They are the strongest 10mm that ever hit the market. The 1006 is a very solid pistol.

 

[BigG]

What is this talk of flatter trajectory? With a pistol?

Unless you really cannot stand not having a TEN mm, the 45 ACP will do about the same thing. If you really NEED a 10mm, the the Colt Delta Elite is the only game in town. You will always gravitate to that because it is the coolest. YMMV

 

[armoredman]

EAA Witness. Conversion kits to make the 10mm into a 45, 40, 38 Super, 9mm, 22lr.....

 

[Sean Smith]

Unless you really cannot stand not having a TEN mm, the 45 ACP will do about the same thing.

Not so. See the ballistics for details.

.45 ACP +P vs. 10mm Auto:

230gr @ 950 ft/sec vs. 220gr @ 1,125 ft/sec
200gr @ 1,050 ft/sec vs. 200gr @ 1,270 ft/sec
185gr @ 1,150 ft/sec vs. 180gr @ 1,330 ft/sec
165gr @ 1,250 ft/sec vs. 165gr @ 1,425 ft/sec

At 100 yards most full-power 10mm loads match .45 ACP +P ballistics at the muzzle.

 

[BigG]

Oh, sorry, Mr xspurt My bullets usually penetrate only paper or thin sheet metal orplastic bottles and cans. 45 holes are easier to see a 25 yards than 40 holes, too.

 

[Sean Smith]

Sorry to provide objective facts to the discussion, BigG.

Try knowing something, it can really help the discussion.

 

[BigG]

Guess when I want to know somethin about your equipment, I'll go to the guy you paid to buy em. Had Colt Delta Ten mm Auto when you didn't even know they existed.

 

[gunfan]

Keep the Kimber

You should then go out and buy a Dan Wesson Patriot or the Razorback. The Razorback is what you need if you desire a match-level pistol. The Patriot is a dandy pistol that will perform the duties required of the 10mm automatic. If you need precise bullet placement the Razorback will "fill the bill."

Just my humble opinion, combined with 13 years of 10mm shooting experience.

Scott

 

[355sigfan]

I would not. The 10mm offers little in power over a +p 45 auto load. Its ammo is scarce and less and less guns are being made for it. The 45 auto has thousands of loads and guns made for it. Its a top notch caliber. Also the 45 will have better reliablity in a simular gun. The FBI's HRT team originally wanted 10mm's but the custom Smiths tried and told them they could not meet the reliability standards with a 10mm. Stick with the 45.
Pat

 

[bradvanhorn]

10mm is unquestionably a more powerful cartridge. Not a little, but a lot. Just look at the numbers Sean provided. Also, long narrow cartridges (.38super, 10mm) usually feed BETTER than short stubby cartridges (45ACP, 9mm) in 1911s, not the opposite.

The only real downside I see with the 10mm is the price of ammo. If you reload, then it's probably not as big a deal, but factory 10mm ammo is much more expensive everywhere I've looked.

The 10mm is probably harder on a gun over the long haul, but I've never worn out a frame shooting any caliber, and I doubt my Delta Elite will be the first.

If you can afford it, I'd suggest you keep your Kimber and get an EAA Witness 10mm (the average retail price is nearly unbeatable) instead of the Glock. The Witness has a much more natural grip angle than the Glock, and will have basically the same control configuration as your 1911. The only weakness to the Witness is that parts and mags can sometimes be difficult to find, and weak slide stops (which if necessary can be welded up by a good gunsmith).

 

[Gordy Wesen]

Double Tap Ammo.

230g 1040
220g 1125
200g 1250
180g 1330
165g 1425
135g 1600


Better than the 45 Super.

 

[nvrquit]

On the Tanfoglio 10mm Witness....

Armoredman & Bradvanhorn,

On the Tanfoglio Witness(oh please, don't call it an EAA, they're only the USA importer and servicing agent), you will have to deal with EAA for "factory" service. With that comes a wide and varying degree of possibilities, some of which are not so pleasant.

On the plus side, the Witness does offer the CZ clone fit/feel and it is an all steel package, along with the options for other calibers.

The low cost is nice, just be warned that if you get a Witness that "behaves badly", EAA may decide that they just can't find anything wrong with it. On that the history is available(and I'm not alone on that issue).

As to the original topic, why not have both calibers; .45 ACP for commonality/availability and 10mm for that extra performance that the .45 ACP can not provide . JMO

 

[litework]

If you want a 10mm, go for it. I wouldn't sell my .45, but don't believe the 10mm is a dying cartridge. More and more guns are being chambered for the 10mm not less and less. The nineties saw the fall of the 10mm, but the internet has renewed interest in the cartridge. Don't take my word for it, look at some of the message board responses for proof. The 10mm almost always come up at some point; I see it more often than the 357 Sig, lately. You have new offerings from Dan Wesson and Kimber to go along with models already offered by Glock and Tangfolio. I think everyone should do their part and bring the 10mm back to prominence.

Winchester Silvertips are actually decent self defense bullets in the 10mm so you can afford to practice more with your SD bullets. Then you can go up the power scale and buy some hotter loads offered by Double Tap.

 

[355sigfan]

10mm is unquestionably a more powerful cartridge. Not a little, but a lot. Just look at the numbers
END

It is if you reload or special order ammo from small companies. If you go and look for self defense rounds at the typical gunshop its not. For example my 20 averages 1180 with Winchesters 175 grain Silvertip. This was known as one of the hotter rounds. My Glock 21 averages 1185 with +p 185 grain Golden Sabers.

I don't see many loads being made in 10mm other than special hunting type rounds by small unproven companies. When they make a Ranger T load in 10mm or a Federal Tactical load or a full power Golddot I will listen. And for guns you have a choice between 3 glocks autos, a Smith revolver a DA Witness and a smatering of 1911's. WOW.
Pat

 

[000Buck]

Maybe look at converting your gun to shoot 45 Super?? I have numerous 10mms, but would like to try out a 45 Super, they seem to be in the same power range.

If you have to have a 10mm and dont want to spend the money on a Kimber(so you can keep your 45), try a S&W 1006. You can get them for ~500 and they are bullet proof.

Also, the EAA Tanfoglio 10mms are super nice for the money. I just got one and paid $350 new. I actually like it better than my 1006, G20 and G29.

 

[Sean Smith]

Pat's track record for factual accuracy regarding the 10mm isn't very good. In fact, spreading outright disinformation about DT ammo is almost a hobby of his. As in, objectively false statements.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6369&perpage=25&highlight=10mm&pagenumber=3

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58433&perpage=25&highlight=10mm&pagenumber=4

 

[355sigfan]

Sean your know thats not correct. Please try to be more honest and less emotional and more factual in your posts. Also I believe there is a rule against personal attacks. Saying someone is spreading misinformation (lying) is clearly a violation of the rules.

Pat

 

[rbernie]

Saying someone is spreading misinformation (lying) is clearly a violation of the rules.

But what if it actually appears to be true? Besides - I think that Sean did a pretty good job of trying to NOT resort to overly-inflammatory language in making his point.

 

[Correia]

355, Sean, nobody has broken any rules yet. So I would like to have you guys drop it before it gets ugly in here like the other two threads linked above. I'm pretty sure everything that was going to be argued about is already in one of those threads.

 

[agtman]

First of all, from what I've read in the printed media, the only "'smith" who told the FBI's HRT unit there would be any "reliability" problems with a 1911 in 10mm Auto was Billy Wilson, who hates the 10mm anyway.

It's funny how other well-known, highly talented 'smiths like Heinie, Vic Tibbets, Ted Yost, Peter Carber, Mark Morris, etc., have absolutely no problem setting up reliably functioning 1911s in 10mm. Must be magic, hmmmm?

Next, there are more commercial ammo-makers (i.e., those licensed to make, sell & transact in interstate commerce) producing 10mm ammo today than there were 20 years ago, unless you accept some goof's arbitrary definition of "commercial ammo-makers." There are also more 10mm guns around today than there have been in about the same number of years, with several new entries from Dan Wesson, Kimber, Tanfaglio, not to mention S&W's re-introduced model 610 10mm revolver.

A power parity? Let's get serious. Anyone who can read can see that the 10mm has a HUGE power advantage over the .45acp, with an energy range running from mild .40-level loads all the way up to the nuclear zone which no .45acp +P load can touch without blowing up the gun and the shooter. Doing a simple Search here or on GlockTalk's 10Ring will provide the relevant stats confirming this.

Even high performance 10mm ammo whose energy falls short of the nuclear level are still quite hot - such as Double Tap's more recent Gold Dot line-up:

* 180gn GDHP @ 1300fps/675fpe

* 165gn GDHP @ 1400fps/718fpe

* 155gn GDHP @ 1475fps/749fpe

Speaking to Ardent's original question: many years back I switch from the .45acp (Sig 220) to the 10mm (S&W 1076). For my needs, the 10mm cartridge offers the same or better accuracy, more power, more capacity, more versatility of use, and more penetrative ability against intermediate barriers such as metal, auto glass, & various densities of wood. Across a range of possible shooting scenarios, the 10mm brings to the table any number of advantages that other cartridges simply don't.

The only down-side, if the 10mm AUTO has one, is that the cartridge demands a consistent regimen of practice with it to maintain proficiency, accuracy and good shooting techique. Such skills are perishable, and regular practice is needed to stay competent. I've seen a lot of people, including cops, who for one reason or another won't put in the training time to develop their skills with a 9mm pistol. For these folks, owning a 10mm shouldn't even cross their mind.

I still like the .45 and still shoot it. It's a venerable old warhorse with a distinguished history to back it up. But it isn't a 10mm and never will be.

 

[turbonatr]

The "Big 3" aren't the only ammo makers that produce excellent ammo. Small companies can and DO load great ammo. A perfect example is Pro-Load. IMHO, Pro-Load makes some of the finest ammunition available with customer service that is second to none. The people at Pro-Load will talk to you one-on-one like a human being with ANY questions you may have. Try calling up one of the Big 3 in an attempt in getting that same service. To top it off, their 10mm is not exatly weak. A 155gr. Gold Dot at 1350fps and a 180gr. Gold Dot at 1200fps (my carry load).

I can honestly say I have had more problems with ammo from the Big 3 (manufacturer defects, bullets loaded in cases backwards, etc.) than I have from Pro-Load. Matter of fact, I have had a total of ZERO problems with Pro-Load ammunition. This includes 9mm, .40, .45acp and 10mm in a variety of firearms.

Not bad for a "mom and pop" store.

 

[355sigfan]

I did not start it and I did not spread any misinformation. But I will drop it at this point. If you like your 10mm fine. I own one too a 610 Smith. But I know what the 10mm is and is not.
Pat