Trading in a .45 for a 10mm

[gunfan]

To all concerned:

Be advised that no matter how you slice it, the 10mm Automatic still outclasses the .357 S&W Magnum in every respect. I will echo the sentiments expressed in this thread. " I will not be selling my .357 S&W Magnum revolvers anytime soon!"

Let's face it boys and girls, the 10mm is the most versatile autoloading pistol cartridge extant... period. You can bluster and ballyhoo about the .45 Super, (still primarily a handloader's cartridge) even at maximum pressure loads, the Super will not likely penetrate as deeply as will the maximum pressure 10mm loads. There is simply too much frontal area, (read, meplat) to permit the deepest projectile penetration when it is needed. The 10mm is just the right cartridge, when loaded for the application, than just about any other autoloading cartridge manufactured to date.

BTW, the discontinued IMI Desert Eagle in .41 Remington Magnum was something else!

Scott

 

[powderific]

What does one want this much penetration for in a handgun cartridge? Hunting? I would think that overpenetration would be a consideration in a defensive situation.

 

[jc2]

Factoring-in for barrel length, which in common 10mm pistols runs between 4.25" - 5", the .357 magnum simply can't keep up.

Check out Buffalo Bore's .357 Magnum. It outperforms Double Tap's 10mm (tested out of a Glock 20) with a four inch S&W 686 Mountain Gun.

Be advised that no matter how you slice it, the 10mm Automatic still outclasses the .357 S&W Magnum in every respect.

Again, when you compare the top factory .357 Magnum loads (e.g., Buffalo Bore) to the to top factory 10mm (e.g., Double Tap) OUT OF SIMILAR SIZE PLATFORMS (S&W 686 and Glock 20), the .357 Magnum does indeed "outclass" the 10mm! You can get more FPE out of a .357 Magnum 4 inch S&W than out of a 10mm 4.25 inch Glock. Sure, Buffalo Bore is exceptional ammunition, but Double Tap isn't actually run of the mill stuff either, is it?

 

[Gewehr98]

Not a particularly good defensive pistol...

Don't know any 41 Magnum autoloaders right off hand.

But Magnum Research did make a bunch of Desert Eagle pistols in .41 Magnum. I still kick myself for passing up a new-in-box .41 Mag conversion kit for my own .357 Magnum Mark I gun.

Speaking of 10mm autopistols, I heard a rumor that the Bren Ten may be on it's way back. Anybody hear anything to confirm this?

 

[gunfan]

In reply to ressurecting the Bren Ten...

Triton Cartridge Company was going to purchase the manufacturing rights to the Bren Ten, but the company was overextended and went out ot business.

The nearest that you will be coming to a Bren Ten will be the Tanfoglio Witness, imported by European American Armory.

I was hoping to see this pistol resurrected as well. :banghead:

Dammitall!!! :banghead:

Scott

 

[gunfan]

Perhaps I had forgotten to mention that...

I beleve that Coonan Arms, manufacturer of a .357 S&W Magnum-chambered autopistol in the early 1990's had built a few of these in .41 Remington Magnum. Of course, I could be in error.

Scott

 

[gunfan]

BTW, jc2:

You cannot count the Glock 20 as having the same barrel length as a 4" barreled revolver. Why? Because you are not including the revolver's cylinder length in the ballistic equation. The 4.6 " Glock barrel is ballistically analagous to shooting the round in a 3.6" revolver barrel.

This may shed a bit of light on your comparison.

Scott

 

[BigG]

41 Autoloader

[Coonan] built a few of these in .41 Remington Magnum. Of course, I could be in error.

That, I believe, is an urban legend courtesy of the errornet. Ranks along with the .41 Magnum Colt Pythons rumored to be out there someplace.

In your defense, I believe a Desert Eagle has been made in 41 Magnum. I've seen the bbls for sale in Shotgun News.

 

[jc2]

Gunfan -

I realize that we are comparing a revolver and an autoloader, and that all things are not equal. However, the Glock 20 is a similar size/purpose handgun as the Glock 20 (regardless of barrel length). So in a similar size package, in a handgun designed for a similar mission, the best .357 Magnum loads are slightly better (in terms of muzzle energy) than the best 10mm.

 

[Sean Smith]

BTW, the "maxed-out .41 Magnum" is a whole lot closer to 1100 fpe (usually around 1070 fpe) than 900 fpe--who are you trying to fool?

Sorry, I looked up the ballistics for .41 Magnum hunting ammo from those sissies at Cor-Bon.

 

[-X-]

Every time anyone mentions the 10mm a bunch of ballistic bashers crawl out of the wood work... Sounding like a buch of little old ladies.

The 10, in its inception, was targeted at achieving 41mag ballistics in a reasonably sized auto loading handgun. Argueing over full-power vs. full-power etc. is futile and beside the point. The cartridge was never meant to duplicate 357mag ballistics. That is not what Cooper wanted. The cartridge did exactly what it was designed to do. 700+ FPE in a .40 cal bullet, out of a controllable pistol. I'm impressed.

 

[jc2]

The cartridge was never meant to duplicate 357mag ballistics.

But it did (and missed .41 Magnum ballistics by a long shot)!

Sean, you might want to look over a Buffalo Bore. Evidently, they're beating the socks off Cor-Bon (never did much care for Cor-Bon anyway)--and about 50% hotter than Double Tap's 10mm stuff. There's just no realistic comparison between the .41 Magnum and the 10mm (except the 10mm bullet is almost the same diameter as the .41 Magnum--but then so is the .40 S&W's bullet).

 

[cratz2]

Yeah, I usually look forward to the 10mm (or 357 SIG) threads. Buncha guys come in, half talking about hit the 10mm is the only cartridge anyone could every possibly want and the other half talking about how one shot from one will rip your arm right off.

Truth is, the hottest hot-loaded 10mms are more than many folks can shoot accurately and quickly with. Simple as that. A lot of folks gawk at 165 Gr 40s and 1100 FPS. At the same time, in a hunting setting, assuming proper shot placement, the hottest safe 10mms are going to kill a deer exactly as dead as the hottest safe 41 Magnum assuming similar bullet weights and construction. A solid cast 200 Gr bullet is very likely to go completely through straight side shot of most deer. If the 41 Magnum goes through from the same angle and then continues another 25 yards past the deer, what difference does it make? The bullets have a similar enough diameter that no deer, elk or bear will ever know the difference and if it's a poor shot, neither are in the class to make up for poor marksmanship like maybe a 375 H&H Magnum might.

As far as defense goes, shooting directly into soft tissue, I refuse to believe that there is a significant bit of difference between a 155 Gr Gold Dot launched at 1200 fps or 1375 fps (to stick with Georgia Arms). Shooting through barriers, very likely to be a difference. What that means to my admittedly limited educated self is that within 25 yards, a 10mm with fairlly hot loads makes a lot more sense to a highway partrolman than it does to an average Joe with a CCW. Some guys are into overkill and I absolutely commend them on that but to argue semantics on a thread like this... sheesh people!

I'm not really recoil shy but as to the recoil thing, a couple boxes of the Georgia Arms 155 Gr Gold Dots through a G29 is very likely to wake you up in the morning.

Having said all that, I was raised on the 45ACP and I currently carry a 9mm but I believe that if I were forced to have only one handgun and I wanted to hunt with it, CCW with it, bullseye with it and IDPA with it, a 10mm 1911 might very well be in a league of its own.

 

[Tamara]

I wish I had an Ultimate Caliber.

 

[BigG]

Like I said, Cratz, the toughest thing I generally kill is paper, tin cans, wood scraps, etc. Don't take a lot of testosterone to deal with that.

 

[gunfan]

BigG:

An ugly, strung-out, moron, kicking in your door @ 3 a.m. may get you to change your tune. I'll be damned if I'll let them get away with terrorizing my house and neighborhood with that burglary B.S.

Scott

 

[Gewehr98]

Ah, but Tamara, you do.

I wish I had an Ultimate Caliber.

You've got a .577-450!

 

[BigG]

An ugly, strung-out, moron, kicking in your door @ 3 a.m. may get you to change your tune. I'll be damned if I'll let them get away with terrorizing my house and neighborhood with that burglary B.S.

Gunfan: for that scenario I have something a whole lot better than any ten mm: A BMF Two Barrel.

 

[gunfan]

Big G:...

How quickly can you bring that into play?

 

[Tamara]

How quickly can you bring that into play?

I got news for you: If the bashing starts on my front door, Plan A is to dive for the 870 in the corner; only if that falls short do I go to Plan B, which is to yank the pistol on my hip. As the Wise Man In Tejas says, "A pistol is only good to fight your way to a long gun."

 

[gunfan]

Tamara:

I'll buy that for a dollar! A relatively short Remington 870 is a great "life insurance policy." If, however, I walk into a situation where the long gun is NOT immediately at hand, I'll take some spicy 155 grain 10mm Auto over a hand full of keys ANYTIME!

Scott

 

[norielX]

I wouldn't trade my .45 for a 10mm, unless it was a 21 for a 20. I'm sure all of this 10mm talk and trade will get the big three to look at the 10mm. I mean, I just saw that Speer is putting out a 210 gr Gold Dot round for the .41mag, and is also putting out the bullet for us reloaders as well!!

I don't know if my next 10mm will be a 29 or a 610. shoot, my next .45 may be a 625 or a 30.

 

[BigG]

A hit from a 10mm Colt Auto in the pinky will blow a man's arm clean off and cause convulsions from hydrostatic shock leading to rapid demise.

 

[Sean Smith]

This topic isn't dead? Even I've lost interest in it...

 

[ny32182]

McNett says his 155 grain gold dot load will reach 1500+fps out of a 5" barrel.

I'm impressed enough to keep my 1006 stoked with them.