Treading on thin ice: Anyone ever carry a DA/SA pistol with the hammer cocked?

[Kestrel]

I even enjoy carrying a J-frame revolver, cocked, sometimes. I usually just shove it in my pocket, along with my keys, some chapstick and a lot of change... With the hammer ALL the way back. Even like to ride an off-road motorcycle like that - on particularly rough trails...

 

[Bobby Lee]

A GLOSSARY OF FIREARMS TERMINOLOGY on the web, [link]http://www.building-tux.com/dsmjd/tech/glossary.htm [/link] says that a double action gun is one in which pulling the trigger both cocks the hammer and releases it.

The more you try to prove your point the more you are showing you are wrong.

 

[BluesBear]

After racking the slide back and after each shot fired the striker is held semi-cocked allowing for lighter trigger pull than conventional double-action.

That statement, by the manufacturers of the WIST94, is an admission that their system is DIFFERENT from a "conventional" double action.


Why the big hangup? Why not just give Gaston his due and call a spade a spade. Or in Glock's case an entrenching tool.


I can't think of a single Double action pistol that didn't have a hammer before Gaston redefined perfection.
Can anyone name me one double action striker fired pistol before the Glock Action came to light?
No the Sauer 38H doesn't count. It actually had a hammer although it was concealed entirely inside the slide. (and yes it could be cocked and de-cocked)

I may be wrong, but I believe that prior to the Glock all striker fired pistols were what we call single action. Perhaps striker fired pistols SHOULD have been called something else to differentiate them from a hammer fired single action pistol. Striker fired pistols are not new. They're well over 100 years old.

As for the restrike issue. There have also been many single action hammer fired pistols where the hammer was contained inside the slide.
A few that immediately come to mind are;
The Colt Woodsman series
The Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless .32 and 1908 Pocket Hammerless .380
High Standard Supermatic, Olympic and such
The Remington Model 51 .380

With these pistols you have to draw back the slide to recock it. But the hammer is then fully cocked. Not half cocked or "pre-tensioned".



Hey! I have an idea.
Let's just start calling the Safe Action pistol "Half-Cocked".







Now let's play nice. We don't want anyone going off pre-tensioned.

 

[Jamie C.]

I may be wrong, but I believe that prior to the Glock all striker fired pistols were what we call single action.

The VP-70 (Volks Pistole model 70) had been developed by HK around 1968, and the production began in 1970. It is a blowback operated, striker fired, double action only pistol. It also has a "plastic" frame.

And if I'm not mistaken, pre-dates Glock by at least a bit.


As I said earlier, when you really take a close look at a Glock, there's not really all that much that's "new" about it.


J.C.

 

[CPS1]

I love these Glock SA/DA threads ....

A little story:

Two tribesmen stand on a cliff. A F-15 soars overhead. But neither man has ever seen a plane before. The first tribesman thinks it's a bird because it flies, and the only thing he has ever seen fly is a bird. The second tribesman thinks it's a lion because it roars and the only thing he has ever heard roar is a lion. So they argue back and forth for days on end about the strange thing in the sky. Tribesman1 is so fixiated on flight that he never considers the roar. Tibesman 2 is so fixiated on the roar he never considers flight. In the end they both give up dejected, believing the other to be wrong.

If it has some but not all of the characterisitics of SA and some but not all of the characteristics of DA, perhaps it's neither.

BTW... for the sake of your manberries, please don't carry a sig charged with the hammer back.

 

[Bobby Lee]

This "debate" does have a lot in common with your tribesmen story.

If one has no ability to understand the basics of gun design then he must rely on "tribesman logic" to describe the action of the Glock.

If one knows and understands the fact that the trigger pull of the Glock pistol both "cocks" and releases the striker then you know the Glock is basically a DA. It may or may not fit what some may think a traditional DA is but it is still DA.

If you don't already know this then you could use 'tribemans logic" to assume from it's looks and "feel" that it is something else.

 

[Graystar]

If one knows and understands the fact that the trigger pull of the Glock pistol both "cocks" and releases the striker then you know the Glock is basically a DA.

The Glock can only be a DA if you grossly construe both of the accepted definitions of DA.

In the first definition, which I think is the more historically accurate definition, a DA trigger performs in two distinct ways...release only, and cock and release. The Glock trigger always performs the same way, so it fails that definition.

In the second definition, where the trigger performs both a cock and release, the accepted definition of the “cocking†of a DA trigger has always been from a fully released state. Indeed, such a double action would have no value if it required some sort of pre-cocking.

Finally, the value of the DA trigger has always been in its ability to initiate a full firing sequence, whether the previous sequence was successful or not. This ability is truly what defines a DA trigger.

In thinking that the Glock is a DA trigger, you’d be missing the forest for the trees. You’d be defining DA by a single mechanical feature (questionably applied) and ignoring the history of the definition of DA. As the Glock fails to meet any of these definitions, it’s classification (if one must classify it) should be as an SA pistol.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I agree with the little vignette, above.

And I've never tried to say it was a SA gun. (I have written, here, that its more LIKE a SA than DA -- but that's not the same as calling it a DA gun.) I have said it wasn't truly a DA gun.

Several of us have said that the Glock Safe Action has characteristics of both SA and DA actions but is not fully representative of either. To use the images from above, it isn't a bird (DA), it isn't a Lion (SA), its a Jet (Safe Action -- for want of a better term.)

As previously noted, the trigger does NOT cock the striker. Pulling the trigger "completes" the cocking process and releases the striker, but can do so only if the slide has already moved and pretensioned the striker spring. Without that slide movement, the trigger does NOTHING. If you disagree, pull the trigger a second time, after the striker has been released.

Once the striker has been released, the steps required to fire the gun a second time are exactly the same as those required to fire a SA striker-fired Luger: you must rack the slide and pull the trigger.

Interestingly enough, I spent some time visiting various web sites yesterday, trying to see how they described the Glock action. Some sites call it a SA gun, a few call it "DA-like", and still others call it a DAO weapon. A couple of other sites make the point that it is not a conventional DA or DAO action.

 

[DT Guy]

Hate to go back on-topic , but:

Take a S&W revolver apart and stare at the single action sear nose for a while. Just stare at it. Now ask yourself if you want THAT to be the only thing between your anatomy and a bullet.


I pick 'no', myself.


Larry

 

[mrhuckins]

I always carry a .357 mag revolver cocked on a loaded chamber in my thunderwear. Anything else is for whimps.

 

[Jamie C.]

I think we've established that Glocks and S&W's Sigma are pretty much the same gun.... so with that in mind, go take a look at Smith & Wesson's 2005 catalog. It can be down-loaded here.

You'll notice that it gets the same code for it's trigger type as the rest of S&W's "DAO" guns; "AD".
The code for a single-action is "AS".
The code for single/double action is "A2"
And the code "AT" is for "Traditional Double action".

Also, if you'll go have a look on page 9 of the Sigma owner's manual, found here, you'll find the following list of terms and definitions:

AMMUNITION - RIMFIRE - Ammunition which contains the
primer material in the rim. Among the most common rimfire
handgun cartridges are the .22 Short, .22 Long, .22 LR, and
.22 Magnum.
CALIBER - The diameter of a bullet, designated in hundredths or
thousandths of an inch (.357) or in millimeters (9mm).
DECOCK - The process by which the hammer or striker is safely
lowered.
DOUBLE ACTION - A firing action where a single pull of the trigger
draws the hammer or striker to the rear then releases it, firing
the handgun.
DOUBLE ACTION ONLY - A firearm that can only be fired in
double action (cannot be fired in single action).
PISTOL - A handgun that contains multiple cartridges in a magazine.
REVOLVER - A handgun that contains multiple cartridges in a
cylinder that revolves at the rear of the barrel.
SINGLE ACTION - A firing action where the hammer or striker is
released from the cocked position by pulling the trigger.
TRADITIONAL DOUBLE ACTION - A firearm that can be fired
either in double action or single action.

Remember that Smith & Wesson has been around a pretty good while, and didn't need to come up with a cutesy-assed term for how their gun worked, as a marketing ploy, like ol' Gaston did when he introduced his polymer gun, some 20+ years ago. ( I figure Glock saw the reception the VP-70 got, and knew he was going to have to present his gun as being something "different", in order to have any chance at all. )


And Graystar..... I never miss the forest for the trees.
I'm the kind that likes to climb right up in the middle of those trees, see how they're put together, how they "work", and how they are the same or different from the others around them, so I'll know exactly what kind of forest I'm in.


J.C.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

And what is your point? That a firm trying to sell a product is the ultimate authority on proper gun terminology?

First of all, I don't personally know that the S&W Sigma models have the same striker mechanism as the Glocks. Do you know that? Perhaps they are TRUE DAO guns. Do they have the same trigger design.

On the other hand, S&W apparently didn't know enough about gun design to avoid a major lawsuit from Glock for copying SOME of Glock's design features. (S&W apparently paid up, big time. Key parts of the SIGMA, like the barrel, were interchangeable with the Glock models. Don't know about the trigger.)

I've also seen Remington rifle magazine ads that called magazines "clips."

As best I can tell, a mag isn't a clip. And a Safe Action isn't DAO, although people misuse THAT term, too.

 

[Hawk]

Does "almost" count?

The first firearm I ever carried regularly was a P7. The routine was always the same: insert mag, rack, stuff in holster.

Holster just recently showed up for my P239. Next day rolls around, I'm on "A.M. autopilot". Insert mag, rack, ..., for just a moment there "something's not right" ... ah... decock, stuff in holster.

Almost, but not quite. A good reminder to pay attention in such matters. Perhaps "A.M. autopilot" is not the best time to shift manual of arms.

 

[Bobby Lee]

According to the ATF the Glock is DA.

IDPA considers it DA.

Police Depts that will not allow their people to carry a single action pistol and require DAO pistols will let their people carry a Glock.

What is that?

Because Glocks are DA.

 

[Ivy Mike]

When you consider the mechanism of a Glock, you can see that it is not a true DA firearm. It is a blend that Glock has named safe-action.

Now, does anyone care to discuss the specifics of FN's RSS system. (repeatable secure striker)

 

[Bobby Lee]

"DOUBLE ACTION - A firing action where a single pull of the trigger
draws the hammer or striker to the rear then releases it, firing
the handgun"

How many time must this FACT have to be repeated before some of you understand it?

I know I could eaisly take any first grade class in any school in the US and spend ten minutes teaching this to the kids and make them understand because it is such a simple thing.

Why is it that so called adults can't seem to be able to understand something this simple.

 

[Jamie C.]

So you don't think Smith & Wesson knows anything about double-action revolvers and autos, Walt?

Oh, and my point?
Not much.... just pointing out what one of the oldest U.S. gun makers has to say on the subject of what a "double-action" is or isn't. They kind'a helped establish the term waaaay back before anybody even knew what "polymer" was, ya know....

And the Sigma's striker has to be re-set if it falls on a dud primer or an empty chamber.


I'd paste up a link to an article on it, but the only ones I can find are by gun writers....



J.C.

P.S. I think S&W did very much recognize that Glock's design is a good one, and did copy it as closely as they could......and very much hoped that no one would notice just how close their copy actually was.

But then they got caught....

 

[Jamie C.]

Bobby Lee...

I'm starting to see how the "gun grabbers" convinced so many people that "full auto" weapons were the same as "semi auto" weapons...

Gun-hating gun-grabber:
"See, look at this M-16A2.... black, ugly, got a handle on top and a "high capacity" magazine sticking out the bottom." *picks up empty M-16, pulls trigger* "See? it only went "clink" one time."
*Puts down M-16, picks up AR-15*
"Now look at this civilian rifle... Same black color, same "ugly", same handle on top, same magazine..... *pulls trigger**CLINK* ....and the same "one clink"....."
"Must be the same gun."

This is the same kind of "logic" that's been used here, when people talk about how a pistol functions WHEN IT'S EMPTY.
And a bad/defective round counts, at least as far as the gun's mechanism is concerned, as "empty chamber".

But anyway.... it's still an interesting conversation.


J.C.


Edited 'cause I go lost in the "alphabet soup" of gun names/numbers, there for a second....

 

[mrhuckins]

Ummm, what happened to the topic of "Treading on thin ice: Anyone ever carry a DA/SA pistol with the hammer cocked?" that we were supposed to be discussing?

 

[Jamie C.]

It's still here, mrhuckins... And I think we've even all answered it.

But you're probably right.... we probably should start our own thread if we're gonna keep discussing various types of pistol actions/types....

Maybe a general "Gun innards and terms" thread?


J.C.

 

[mrhuckins]

I started one here:

Is the Glock SA, DA or DAO

 

[JoeRapture]

This might blow your mind...

My former father in law carried his Beretta 92 cocked with the safety off! He was a detective seargent in a local jurisdiction. Seemed like a bad practice to me!

 

[psyopspec]

My former father in law carried his Beretta 92 cocked with the safety off! He was a detective seargent in a local jurisdiction. Seemed like a bad practice to me!

Did he ever try to explain the reasoning behind carrying that way?