TSA is amazingly polite at Dallas Love Field...

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Google "body images" or "body scanners" and there are many examples of the images that "cannot be saved or stored" and "cannot be printed" and are destroyed after the image is viewed...

Yes, in fact, TSA did lie about that one...
 
I feel strongly that the TSA is unAmerican if not unconstitutional with the scanning machines and new stronger pat downs. I am not a constitutional expert, but I hope someone gets a case to the high court on this. What is to stop them from putting these procedures in place at bus stations, train stations, or even gas stations? Would that make you feel different about the procedures? Simply being a traveler does not give probable cause to search to me. I would feel more comfortable militarizing the airports so the illusion of constitutionality of their actions is removed and these things are done under the (possibly rightly so) auspices of martial law. That seems more reasonable to me. In effect the air security situation is an emergency situation requiring emergency actions...just don't try to say they aren't an infringement on every day freedoms this country is supposed to be about. Also what happens if you just decline the search? Best case scenario you are escorted out but most likely you will be detained. And there you have it. Having broken no law nor given any reasonable cause you are detained. Doesn't sound like the America I was taught to love and defend.
 
I feel strongly that the TSA is unAmerican if not unconstitutional with the scanning machines and new stronger pat downs.
You don't have a constitutional right to fly.
Let me say I'm all for security, real security. Like Israel has. And their first warning? Don't have the government do it. FAIL.
I must fly to get a paycheck, but I don't have to like it. We all know who the terrorists are, the rest is PC theater. Do we really need to have the 18yr. old Swedish girl to put her flip flops through the X-ray?
Why do they feel the bottom of my bare feet? Are they expecting to find a chain saw hidden in my callous? They can see from my pass that I have 2 million miles with the airline, don't they think I might have done something by now? I'd have a hard time finding Yemen on a map, check the guy who's been there 13 times, but has no luggage.
Here's the topper. Last week if you were a woman and getting a patdown, the female attendant was a MUSLIM wearing a hijab (headscarf) over her uniform. Hmmmmm.......who do I trust? Might she let some.......individual slip by her? I'm just sayin'.

Referenced proof or it didn't happen.
Want to bet?
 
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You don't have a constitutional right to fly.

Its not that we don't have a constitutional right to fly. Its that the gov. doesn't have a const. authority to search without probable cause.

So again I ask does simply being a traveler provide probable cause?

If probable cause is no boundary to the government, then why not randomly start going door to door of every American household looking for terrorist contraband?

I am not naiive enough to think that some extra measure's aren't warranted. But I think the measures in place are unamerican in spirit, as is anyone who approves. National security is important to me if the security provided is for a nation of founding principles. You know Stalin was damned proficient at national security. National security itself is worth little to me. The spirit and substance of this country's security has and always will lie not in the actions of government but in the willingness of free men (volunteers, unpaid, uncertified) to stand up for what is right against what is wrong. And what they are doing in the airports is wrong.
 
Has the TSA stopped anything (besides people that forgot they had nail clippers in their carry on)? Underwear bomber, shoe bomber, etc. seems like they all get through and the TSA makes some new idiotic rule after the fact, so the terrorists just change their method again.
I hope I don't have to fly anywhere for a long time. It's a fast way to travel but not worth giving up my rights/privacy.
Are all passenger planed subject to the FAA/TSA? I wonder if some enterprising folks could put together a smaller private airline that travels to non-international airports for people who don't want to go through the hassle.
 
No Scan

While working for a large defense integrator, I used these scanners in several proof of concepts for domestic and foreign customers. These were an earlier generation of the current backscatter machines. Since that time the technology has improved.

TSA is lying about radiation, and about the capability to retain images. They are also lying about the image resolution; current models can display down to the pore level. Images can be stored and manipulated. Resolution can be scaled. There is very little credible or long-term analysis on the potential effects of backscatter radiation.

This backscatter technology is now deployed in mobile vans; this modification was available five years ago and is now widely used. It's purpose is to view through vehicles, although it can image buildings in many cases.

I refused a scan this summer while flying through a US airport on the Mexican border. These were among the first of the deployments after the underwear bomber fiasco caused changes in policy and application. I was very noisily escorted to a station and given a highly intrusive rub-down. This was explained as needed to discover residue, although technology to easily detect any latents has been used for years. My children were also subjected to search. The overall effect was of a "show"; passengers were escorted very close by while the rubdown continued. The attitude taken by these TSA employees was decidedly one of retribution and intimidation.

I will not scan- ever- when flying. I agree that only massive refusals will change this intrusive and dangerous practice. These scanners are NOT safe as claimed by TSA. They ARE marketed by Michael Chertoff and other former national security figures. Executives of the manufacturers of these products and integrator defense firms that sell them are constantly taking "revolving door" positions as advisors to the federal government, effectively giving them the ability to shape policy.

Forcible use of these scanners on US citizens is unsafe, likely un-Constitutional, and is most definitely a tool to intimidate the citizenry.
 
I must say that reading through all this acquiescence to government regs is mildly depressing. This is the kind of attitude I expect to hear from big-city college students my own age, not licensed gun owners who are mostly old enough to be my father.

Do I really have to repeat that quote about liberty and security? To you guys?

Until this gets knocked up to SCOTUS and overturned, I'm going to roll with Rusty Shackleford's suggestion from earlier in the thread: If I have to fly, I'll refuse the scan and act extremely appreciative of the physical pat-down. Of course, then I'm liable to get arrested because I'M the one being insensitive.
 
Refuse the Scans. Slow down the system

I challenge everything with TSA. I had to snap at a TSA zombie when she mechanically snatched the tray that had my wallet and personal effects because it was taking me too long to dress after the metal detector since I also had to dress a toddler. She turned around and complained to her pit boss but they pointed out that I clearly just wanted my stuff back that was in the tray. I was already in a bad mood after arguing about the lock on my pistol for 30 minutes. They wanted it unlocked. I repeatedly explained the rule that the pistol case could not even have a TSA lock. I finally locked it after they inspected the pistol inside (which had a flex lock through the barrel) and after they placed the inspection card inside. They argued rules amongst themselves for a while and then sent me on my way.

It has gone too far and seems to be conditioning us for the next level of gov't. I wear flip flops with socks so I don't pick up some planters warts from the thousands of nasty people that went bare foot in front of me. I let them know how much I enjoy it too. I will never go through the scan and if they tazer me for holding up the system, I will wet on their floor.
 
Weisbrot Post 58! I have heard everything you have said in your post and I am no longer connected in anyway with the "know crowd".

The vans you mentioned for use in neighborhoods, the unknown radiation levels, and the images are there regardless what most have been told.

The revolving door from contractor to government and then back again has been going on since I was a kid only it was not as blatant or destructive as it seems to be now. Used to be it was for knowledge and know how but now it just seems to be about protection of some contractor's bottom line and a good sales job.

More people are becoming aware. Knowledge is power.

There are Unions, Airlines, and just normal people making a ruckus now about the scanners and maybe something can be changed. The earlier point about Stalin's national security was actually a good point. National security should be security for the citizens not just the government.

My wife flew yesterday with a boy 7 and a girl 6 out of Houston. Just the normal stuff with no full body scan. She said there were a few getting the full treatment randomly but she and the kids went through normally. This was out of terminal "B" and like I said, way back when, it is a hit and miss situation and depends on the airport.
 
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If probable cause is no boundary to the government, then why not randomly start going door to door of every American household looking for terrorist contraband?
Haven't you heard about the portable scanners installed in vans driving around, looking in people's houses? (oops, Weisbrot beat me to it.)

Why is there no outrage? Because your liberal media conveniently forgets to report it.

I wear flip flops with socks so I don't pick up some planters warts from the thousands of nasty people that went bare foot in front of me.
I used to ask the TSA this question every week. "If it was discovered that H1N1 flu was transmitted by bare feet, would the CDC tell us?"
I love tweaking them. (Now, you can get little slippers to wear.)

There are Unions, Airlines, and just normal people making a ruckus now about the scanners and maybe something can be changed
Follow the money. In the face of all the bad press, refusal of pilots, TSA caught lying, my airport has just added MORE scanners.
DHS has so much money at their disposal, they need to spend it to justify the bigger budget next year.
I figure in a few years, there will be a full body scanner at every gate as you board the plane. Somebody's making millions.
If your scanner is made by "RapidScan" it was sold by none other than Michael Chertoff. Former head of DHS. Nice, huh?
 
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A gun rights forum is the exact last place I would have imagined I'd have to say this:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "

How is this unclear?

No government agency can search through my stuff without one of these things: Probable Cause, a search warrant, or my consent.

Is me wanting to travel freely and legally to another US State enough to assume I'm involved in criminal activity(probable cause)? NO.

Do they have a search warrant(under Oath or Affirmation) describing what is to be searched and what is to be seized? NO.

Do they have my consent to view me naked or touch my privates? NO.

The TSA is a government agency and they are not giving me any choice in this matter. Hence, they are violating the Constitution. Case closed. I should be able to fly without this nonsense. Metal detectors and simply x-raying my bags is different. It's more of a cursory once over scan and is sort of a gray area. They won't be going through my bag unless they see something incriminating on the x-ray....

However, wanting to see underneath my clothes or touch my scrotum is another matter entirely and is a bridge too far. They need probable cause, a search warrant, or my consent. They've got none of those.
 
I think we live in interesting times and assume it will only get more exciting if people care to research some of the outlandish claims we hear.

Myself if a reference is given and it pips my interest I try to look up the document referenced and make my own decision about the source and content. There are certainly hype masters on both sides of an argument when it comes to a broadcast.

Obviously there are two sides to every story although it kinda of reminds me of the saying, "There is a right way, a wrong way, and the government way".
 
source?

Haven't you heard about the portable scanners installed in vans driving around, looking in people's houses? (oops, Weisbrot beat me to it.)


??
 
Intimidate

From what I can gather when you "Opt Out" it is going to get real noisy at some airports. Here is a 14 min video of a young women refusing to go through a body scan and then ( probably because of her mouth?) ended up hand cuffed to a chair. This happened at Ft. Lauderdale Fl. Meg McLain vs TSA is on several web sights as of today. The link is from msm but can be found at many places on the net.

Obviously They will want us to go through the scans.

Obviously we do not want to go through the scans.

Lets hope a middle ground can be reached.

I checked load factors for the Airlines last month and they were good. % of seats filled actually went up a tad. My fear is many will refuse to fly for whatever reason and then we are going to have another round of companies going belly up.

Deleted the link if you are interested just use her name Meg McLain vs TSA chose your own source. Again hopefully some of our newly elected Reps or some smart people can get a handle on some of this stuff. I will be going overseas sometime next year. I do not know if I will opt out or not; just being honest.
 
Rusty, you're a bit off there.. Its not consent, probable cause, or a warrant. Its consent, or a warrant. The warrant can only be issued with probable cause. Probable cause by itself is not enough to give them Constitutional authority for the search. They use the probable cause to convince a judge to sign a warrant.


but TSA employees have been caught ogling pictures of good looking women, perhaps your daughter.

for this claim? please no alex jones or wnd

http://epic.org/privacy/airtravel/backscatter/TSA_Reply_House.pdf

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20012583-281.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/029378_full_body_scanners_images.html

http://www.techeye.net/security/backscatter-images-to-replace-sex-tapes-and-leaked-nudie-pics

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-oped-1114-chapman-20101114,0,3696372.column
 
Dokkalfar good post.

It really does not matter; anyone who disagrees with someones perceived notion of truth/reality will usually have a hard hill to climb if an opinion is changed.

Human nature.

Today's world with all the outlets and info appears even harder to sift through the multiple layered (?) inaccuracies to find a truth.
 
Intimidate

From what I can gather when you "Opt Out" it is going to get real noisy at some airports. Here is a 14 min video of a young women refusing to go through a body scan and then ( probably because of her mouth?) ended up hand cuffed to a chair. This happened at Ft. Lauderdale Fl. Meg McLain vs TSA is on several web sights as of today. The link is from msm but can be found at many places on the net.

Obviously They will want us to go through the scans.

Obviously we do not want to go through the scans.

Lets hope a middle ground can be reached.

I checked load factors for the Airlines last month and they were good. % of seats filled actually went up a tad. My fear is many will refuse to fly for whatever reason and then we are going to have another round of companies going belly up.

Deleted the link if you are interested just use her name Meg McLain vs TSA chose your own source. Again hopefully some of our newly elected Reps or some smart people can get a handle on some of this stuff. I will be going overseas sometime next year. I do not know if I will opt out or not; just being honest.

Tens of thousands refuse the scan, so they have to be patted down.
This delays flights all over the country for hours and hours, day after day. Everyone is pissed.
Forcing TSA to stop the scans.
or
Most likely, post a new rule requiring everyone to go through the scan. No more opt outs.
Those tens of thousands now just stop flying altogether - airlines go out of business. :scrutiny:
 
If it cannot store the information, how can it be used to prosecute someone later?

Rmember, we the people will get lied to time and time again until they get called out on it. I've been asked to do the scan and told them "only if you can PROVE there is no data recording device on that machine, I do not want my pictures to go public like those that are online now"...he basically gave me a canned spiel, but still didnt' show me....when I explained what shwoing someone entailed as per the dictionary, he let me go through without it.

All I asked for is for them to prove they are doing what they promised, if not, then they have to do it the old way.
 
Results of 2 second Google for cassandrasdaddy

re: #66 ?? Source?

http://www.as-e.com/products_solutions/zbv.asp

"Full-Body Scan Technology Deployed In Street-Roving Vans"
http://blogs.forbes.com/andygreenberg/2010/08/24/full-body-scan-technology-deploy

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/95m-for-special-zbackscatter-scanvans-to-afghanistan-iraq-0967/

http://legalift.wordpress.com/2010/...-used-inside-the-us-to-scan-contents-of-cars/

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...-not-just-being-sold-to-law-enforcement.shtml



ProductsSolutions_CargoVehicleInspection_ZBackscatterVan%28ZBV%29.jpg
 
thanks for the source weisbrot

so is that a no to "looking in your house" then?

backscatter x-ray scanners mounted in vans that can be driven past neighboring vehicles to see their contents,

bear in mind that i've seen em work and so far no one is claiming(except tech dirt) that they can look in your house unless its "lightly constructed" and adjacent to the street. they have real limited range
 
ALL radiation is cumulative!

There is a story coming up on KMOV-TV in St. Louis (KMOV.com) about airline pilots refusing the scans.

Having worked for a big pharma that made "nuclear meds" and one of the things they stressed to us was that, unlike some vitamins, caffeine, food, and water, radiation NEVER leaves the body!

The effects of even this "low level radiation" adds up over time. People that fly frequently, like pilots, are at even higher risk because of the altitude at which they fly. With less atmosphere above them, more radiation from space can (and DOES) penetrate not only the plane but their bodies as well. From what I've heard in the past, every flight above 25,ooo feet is like getting a chest X-ray for every 2 hours you are at that altitude.

So, ask yourself, how many chest X-rays does it take to GIVE you a cancer???
 
Actually have seen a Geiger counter/Rem meter sat for measurement purposes just under the wind screen on a B727. The meter showed millirems. Depending on what time of year you fly this meter from sea level to 10,000 would point to around 10 O'clock which would increase to about the 12 O'clock position until you went above 29,000 to 31,000 whereby it increased to approx the 2 to 2;30 position.

I used to fly at 45,000 all the time just because I did not know any better and the jet was much more efficient and used less fuel. The guy who showed me this was a maintenance officer for the SR-71 and was a PHD I think...no matter he was weird but his instruments did not lie. Those guys flew above 85,000 and it is still classified.

Most Airliners cruise at 31,33,35,37,39, and some can make it to 41,000 if they are not heavy.

Usually on a long distance flight we would step climb to our final altitude, IE, maybe to heavy to go much above 31,000 but after taking off, climbing, and cruising for an hour (or so) usually you can make either you intermediate (next step climb like 35,000 and finally 39,000 final cruise.

Why go so high???

Because you won't get there if you don't.

Down low fuel burn might be 9000 pounds per engine per hour at a high power setting. At altitude your cruise fuel consumption might be as low as 2700 pounds per engine per hour at above 93% power...

These are just examples and not aircraft specific.

Many Airline pilots die at 62.5 years which was study done by ALPA several years ago. No reference just a memory but could probably be found. I retired with over 28,000 hours flight time from civilian, military and commercial flying. It was what I always wanted to do so no regrets here. You as a passenger even on a super platinum card will never get that much exposure in several lifetimes..
 
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