Two Hand Grip

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I'm a self taught shooter and my grip has evolved over the years to finally a slightly modified thumbs forward. I only modified it because my right thumb ends up holding down the slide release so I stick it up. Revolvers I shoot thumb over thumb.

 

[MrBorland]

What the interlocking thumbs (revolver) grip provides is a perception (it isn't real) of a more secure grip, while introducing a couple of pretty obvious downsides.

What's this "revolver grip" to which you refer? A number of us have seen the light.

Not only am I thumbs-forward, but I'm thumbs-off, too. It's not just good for recoil recovery, but target accuracy as well, as there's less to affect the gun as the shot breaks. Since coolluke01's a contributor to this thread, I'll post one of my contribution's to his recent postal match (2nd pic), using the same gun, ammo, & grip used in the first photo.

 

[9mmepiphany]

You know I didn't mean you

I was just using the term that the OP was using.

Folks should pay attention when MrBorland post about shooting a revolver well...he really knows what he is talking about. I'm still stunned by his trigger control with a coin atop his sight rib

 

[Lunie]

If I see the phrase "force vectors" one more time, I'm going to need to see some free body diagrams. At least.



I don't believe there is a "perfect" stance. Years from now, the "new and improved" being preached today will become the "old and antiquated".

Be willing to learn, try, and evaluate.

Cheers.

 

[kcshooter]

Years from now, the "new and improved" being preached today will become the "old and antiquated".

Maybe so.

And, if it makes me a better shooter, I'll be glad for the progression.

 

[Sam1911]

And, if it makes me a better shooter, I'll be glad for the progression.

Yup, sign me up! I'll be watching the guys winning the practical shooting matches and trying to learn to do whatever it is that makes them faster and more accurate than the old school guys.

 

[RBid]

Count me among those who will happily learn new techniques that are proven better than existing ones.

"The current way isn't always the best way" is how we arrived at thumbs forward. If an even better method is found, we would be silly to not give it a shot.


As far as using thumbs forward as proof for the Glock grip angle being superior goes:

saywhat?

I see what you're trying to say, sir, but there are a lot of people out there using this grip to great effect with a tremendous variety of pistols. The Glock's grip angle isn't required to lock the support side wrist out.

 

[coolluke01]

You don't like my Glock grip angle is better angle huh. I have a hard time getting my left wrist to lock out with a straighter grip angle. I've tried it many times and I point 1911's at the floor when I lock out my wrist.

I would venture to say that not everyone that shoots thumbs forward locks out the weak hand wrist. I think it's an important element of the thumbs forward hold. If you can do it with a 1911 style grip more power to you. I can't see how without having a void between the two hands.

To show my point, a visual. I know it's not perfect but this is what I have to work with.

Wrist locked out = \
1911 style grip = | I know it's not a straight grip but it's straighter than the Glock's
Glock grip = \

\\ Glock angle and locked wrist. Remember this is just to illustrate the issue I have. Not saying the Glock angle is exactly the same as the locked out wrist angle. I do think it's closer though.

\| 1911 style with locked wrist. See the void? That's what happens to me when I hold a 1911 style with wrist's locked.

 

[RBid]

Gotcha, sir.

I haven't had void/gap issues. My hands lock around a PPQ, SR9c, or XDm exactly like the M&P picture here.

 

[1SOW]

I'm not at all comfortable with thumbs forward, which I've tried before, and it's a slower way for me to get a two-handed grip from holster to presentation. Is the thumbs forward grip really all that much better?

Starting out with an optimal grip is A LOT easier than "UN"learning a less than optimal grip.
I started out in Bullseye and thought I could teach myself stance, grip, draw and presentation for action shooting. Bad choice. Work on/practice what has proved to be very fast and accurate.

Listen to Sam 1911 and 9mmEpiphany

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Not only am I thumbs-forward, but I'm thumbs-off, too. It's not just good for recoil recovery, but target accuracy as well, as there's less to affect the gun as the shot breaks. Since coolluke01's a contributor to this thread, I'll post one of my contribution's to his recent postal match (2nd pic), using the same gun, ammo, & grip used in the first photo.

Got a guide on hand placement for a revolver?

 

[Sam1911]

Here's Jerry M's opinions on revolver grip: http://www.myoutdoortv.com/shooting/shooting-usa/jerry-miculek-revolver-grip

Browse that sight a little and you can watch the rest of the series to find out what the greatest living revolver shooter has to say about grip, reloads, trigger control, etc.

 

[Surf]

I was messaged about this post and asked to reply at a couple other places so I will just quote myself. I will first say that I carried a revolver professionally for a few years and before professional training I shot Chapman. I then adjusted more to an Iso with the revolver. I was considered a pretty accomplished shooter when shooting revolver with Chapman and then into ISO. I then moved into pistols and still kept a revolver grip on the pistol and was highly successful. However somewhere around ~10 years ago when I progressed into a thumbs forward and a modern or combat Iso my skill level kickstarted and progressed to a whole new level almost overnight. I will say that it took some time and effort to stick with the grip as my skills initially dropped. But once it took hold and the light bulb went on, it opened up a whole new world.

This was my reply elsewhere. The OP has not responded to anyone so this info might benefit others here reading this topic.

The modern combat or thumbs forward grip is IMO currently the best grip to use on a pistol. I am not saying that other grips cannot be successful but the modern combat or thumbs forward is a superior grip. I started shooting revolvers at a young age and in my early formal years of training and working professionally I carried a revolver for a few years and had a classic locked thumb or revolver style grip. Even with a revolver style grip on a pistol I was considered to be a highly proficient shooter and always in the top shooter categories in my peer groups. When I first learned the modern combat or thumbs forward grip my shooting proficiency actually decreased due to the change and it was frustrating. I stuck with it and it took a good week long advanced level pistol course to hammer my old revolver grip out of me and truly adopt this new type of grip. However once I gained high levels of proficiency with this grip it became more natural than the revolver grip and my skills kick started and I progressed rapidly from this point.

I feel so strongly about the grip I did a 3 part video series on the grip itself.

Part 1 is the history of the revolver grip and how I saw that it adapted to the pistol.
Part 1 - History of revolver grip and the pistol

Part 2 talks about the mechanics, physics and what actually happens during the recoil phase of the pistol and why your grip is so important.
Part 2 - What happens during recoil and why is the grip so important.

Part 3 discusses how to establish a good modern combat / thumbs forward grip.
Part 3 - How to establish a good modern combat or thumbs forward grip.

 

[showmebob]

KCshooter

My Quote:
[I believe the old "revolver grip" is better for defensive shooting but thats just me]

Your reply
[I'm all about trying something and giving it a fair shot, and if it doesn't work, ok. So I'm not bashing at all. I'm just wondering.
Why do you think it is better for defensive shooting?]
__________________
My thoughts: I have smaller hands with shorter fingers. Shooting different guns the "revolver" grip seems to work with all of them with no adjustment for grip size or gun controls getting in the way such as the saftey lever on my FNX.

Also my thought is that in a serious situation with the adrenaline flowing that gross motor skills would lend toward a clinched fist "revolver style" easier than the quicker thumbs forward or up position.

I can't prove my last statement since I've not been in that situation with a gun and hope I am never able to prove it. I have no reason to be a proponet or opponet of either style. I believe it is a personal choice we all need to make.

Stay safe!

 

[skeeziks]

No one would ever argue about anything that comes out of Jerry Miculek's mouth, and yet according to what his views are on a proper/inproper grip for the revolver, "Mr. Borland" is doing it all wrong.
But as we can all plainly see, Mr. Borland is definitely doing it Very Right!
That is what works for Him. I grip just like Jerry and that's what works for me. We're not all shaped the same.

 

[oboe]

I want to express my gratitude to all who have contributed to this thread. As a newbie who's interested in results when I need them - and I hope I never do - you've provided a lot of food for thought. Thanks!

 

[showmebob]

Since Jerry M's revolver shooting grip has come up, does anyone know or have a video link of how he holds a M&P pistol?

 

[oboe]

I am I'm sure others would just LOVE to see that!

 

[MrBorland]

I grip just like Jerry and that's what works for me. We're not all shaped the same.

Agreed. There's no single best grip. But it's worth noting that your grip is good for you because you found it to be good for you, not because it's what JM recommends. When it comes to grip(s), it's worth experimenting.

BTW, I'm surprised it hasn't come up yet, but the thumbs-forward revo grip gets the end of your thumb close to some hot cylinder gases. I've not found it an issue with low-pressure .38spl (or even +P) or .45acp, but it certainly might become one with hotter magnums.


Edit:

No one would ever argue about anything that comes out of Jerry Miculek's mouth, and yet according to what his views are on a proper/inproper grip for the revolver, "Mr. Borland" is doing it all wrong.
But as we can all plainly see, Mr. Borland is definitely doing it Very Right!

Jerry really addresses the importance of 1) a high grip, and 2) letting your trigger finger placement determine where the backstrap gets positioned in your grip. Beyond that, there's plenty of room for the wheelgunner to experiment without doing it all wrong.

 

[kcshooter]

You don't like my Glock grip angle is better angle huh

That doesn't work for me either. The Glock grip still points high for me when in thumbs forward, yet my Sig and 1911 point right where I want them.

Now, the Glocks that I did a grip reduction to point perfectly.

I know that they point correctly for some as-is, but for me, the angle is unnatural and needs to be corrected to fit me.

 

[Surf]

Jerry Miculek shoots a pistol with a thumbs forward grip in the same iso stance / presentation as he uses on a revolver.

 

[basicblur]

BTW, I'm surprised it hasn't come up yet, but the thumbs-forward revo grip gets the end of your thumb close to some hot cylinder gases.

That's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the pix earlier in the thread - brother of our local gun shop owner lost part of his thumb when he shot his S&W 500 with his thumb forward.
I know there are reports of others out there on the 'Net, but I've seen his thumb, and it ain't pretty...

 

[Sam1911]

brother of our local gun shop owner lost part of his thumb when he shot his S&W 500 with his thumb forward.
I know there are reports of others out there on the 'Net, but I've seen his thumb, and it ain't pretty...

Going out on a limb here, I'd say he probably wasn't using a normal thumbs-forward grip. A .500 Mag has a very long cylinder and I don't think I could get my thumb that far forward on the X-Frames with my standard grip. Not saying he didn't, just that I'd want to see his grip.

 

[jeepnik]

Once upon a time, handguns were usually shot with one hand. Then someone figured out two was better and the Iso stance came about. A bit later a fellow name Weaver had a better idea. Then of course a fellow named Chapman came up with his idea. And on and on it goes.

Bit of truth. If you seriously intend to be able to use a handgun in a combat situation, you'd better be darned able to shoot strong handed, weak handed, two handed, and if you've got a third using that one too.

In addition, you better be able to do it standing, sitting, kneeling, prone, while walking, running, crawling on hands an knees and on your belly.

Their isn't a single "game" out their that even comes close to what you will experince when bullets are coming "at" you. In many cases, if you stand up, assume your favorite stance and two handed grip, while getting a good or even a "flash" sight picture, your enemy will be sitting around his next meal telling his buddies about the idiot who just stood there and let him shoot him.

But what the heck, I've never been a "master" shooter in IDPA, IPSC, Bullseye or any other shooting game. Maybe I should just give up now as I don't have any of the "skills" advanced by the "combat" experts who've never been shot at.

 

[kcshooter]

While the premise behind that is true, I can get a good grip, stance, and sight picture just as fast as I can get bad ones.