U.S. Pastor Gets 3+ Years for 20rds in Russia

[Trempel]

Paraphrasing here.

"Do you have anything to declare?"

"Yeah - Don't go to Russia!"

 

[Gene_WI]

I am Russian, I know a bit about the Russian legal system. The pastor is very lucky in opinion, and him being an American probably eased his punishment. Russian gun laws are weird. For example military ammo is illegal, and possession caries a heavy sentence (I.E. possession of 5.45x39 is a felony). As such it is best not to bring ammo (especially dual purpose, that can be shown to be sniper rounds) or parts through customs, without the appropriate paper work. The equivalent would be trying to bring in a parts kit into the US without a form six. That would probably end very badly. Or brining pot back from Amsterdam, that would not end well for anyone.

Honestly he got off lightly. Many foreigners have perished in foreign prisons because of smuggling or incorrect customs procedures. There are some very good books on the subject.

 

[RPCVYemen]

Out of respect for each other, Pastor Philip, Philip's family, and the Russian community that he loves, can we please stop the bickering? Philip knows he made a hugely boneheaded move.

I have to strongly disagree with a post that called him a bozo. That was wrong. Pastor Philip sounds like a really nice guy who made a mistake.

I also don't think that what happened in the Russian was much different than what would have happened in courts in most countries in the world - or even the US. I don't know that the conviction speaks particularly badly of the Russian justice system, or is due to any prejudice against Christian pastors. To know that there was some prejudice, I think that we would have to find out what sentences have been given to other foreigners (or Russians) convicted of the same offense.

Let's be very clear - Russia is fighting an active insurgency. Whether you agree with Russian policy or not, you would expect Russia to be very concerned about weapons/ammo transport in the context of that war.

Unless we know that the sentence that Pastor Philip received was tougher than for others convicted of the same crime, I don't think it's fail to cry prejudice.

There may not be a bad guy here. It's nice to think that all the problems in the world are caused by good guys on one side, and bad guys on the other. That's true in cartoons and Chuck Norris movies, but not in real life.

It sounds to me like a sad case where a good man made a bad mistake, and was fairly convicted and sentenced. We can hope and pray that the sentence gets reduced after some time.

Mike

 

[RPCVYemen]

So, if one does want to hunt in Russia, is it better to procure a rifle and ammo while there?

I would assume that's the case for every country in the world, unless you know differently. By "know", I mean that you have talked to you outfitter, and/or the consulate and asked specifically about weapons and ammo.

The truth is that Russian law does not sound particularly strict in this case. I don't think there many countries in the world where a foreigner could bring in a box of ammo - without any declaration - and not fall afoul of the law.

I notice that some of the posters are from countries other than the US. What is the law where you live?

Does anyone know what the actual US law is about non-citizens bringing ammo into the US without a declaration?

Mike

 

[RPCVYemen]

I am Russian, I know a bit about the Russian legal system. The pastor is very lucky in opinion, and him being an American probably eased his punishment.

This fits my perception - not of Russia in particular (I have no experience there yet), but of the world in general. Smuggling ammo sounds to me like it would get more than 3 years in many places in the world - especially if the ammo is dual use (has military applications as well as civilian application, and most centerfire ammo does).

Mike

 

[MakAttak]

Smuggling ammo sounds to me like it would get more than 3 years in many places in the world - especially if the ammo is dual use (has military applications as well as civilian application, and most centerfire ammo does).

That sounds nice and reasonable until you put it in full context:

Smuggling twenty (20) rounds of ammo sounds like it would get more than 3 years in many places in the world.

Really? You think someone with ONE (1) box of ammo would probably get more than 3 years in most places in the world?

You think, perhaps, that they might realize this guy isn't a threat and try to get people smuggling a thousand (1,000) boxes of ammo?

 

[Gene_WI]

Really? You think someone with ONE (1) box of ammo would probably get more than 3 years in most places in the world?

Yes I do, it will get you the death penalty in some parts of the world.

Also from direct experiences in Russia. A moderator form guns.ru was arrested and later sentenced to several years in what is known as a work colony for possession of several (<5) rounds of military 9x18mm ammo.

US justice system is extremely lenient and merciful in comparison to the rest of the world.

 

[RPCVYemen]

Really? You think someone with ONE (1) box of ammo would probably get more than 3 years in most places in the world?

Yes, I do. My guess is that the list of countries that would consider smuggling a box of ammo into the country a "slap on the wrist" offense would be very, very, very short. I would suspect that it would be the equivalent of a felony everywhere in the world.

I would be surprised if it's not a felony in the US. Does anyone know what the penalties are for weapons/ammo smuggling into the US for a foreign national?

Mike

 

[TexasRifleman]

Also, the USSR bitterly persecuted any religion not called Orthodox. As you may know (or not) this didn't die overnight with the fall of communism. In light of that, TexasRifleman's comment is valid speculation.

This morning on Wall Stree Journal radio on XM a British reporter was talking about rumors that the Orthodox church was waging a VERY bitter campaign against "evangelical types" and the rumors included stories of the judge in this case being pressured to impose harsher sentencing because of that so the idea that the religious aspect of this is playing a part is pretty widespread.

Who knows for sure, it's still Russia......

 

[-v-]

You think, perhaps, that they might realize this guy isn't a threat and try to get people smuggling a thousand (1,000) boxes of ammo?

Yes, those people Russia also sees a threat. They get the death penalty on sight without a trial, or a jury, and usually from the business end of an AK-74.

 

[shdwfx]

Yes, I do. My guess is that the list of countries that would consider smuggling a box of ammo into the country a "slap on the wrist" offense would be very, very, very short.

Does anybody have any definitive information on what is typical punishment for not declaring restricted items in most countries? Not speculation or "my guess", but real info?

My experience traveling out of country is undeclared items will result in an instant fine and possible deportation, but not jail time.

 

[RPCVYemen]

and the rumors included stories of the judge in this case being pressured to impose harsher sentencing because of that so the idea that the religious aspect

Given the rumors, logic says one of four things is true:

1. The judge was not pressured, and the sentence is more lenient than for other people convicted of the same crime.
   
2. The judge was not pressured, but the sentence is harsher than for other people convicted of the same crime.
   
3. The judge was pressured, but ignored the pressure, and the sentence is more lenient than for other people convicted of the same crime.
   
4. The judge was pressured, and the sentence is harsher than other people convicted of the same crime.

That makes in pretty important to know whether not the sentence was in fact harsher than other folks convicted of the same crime, doesn't it?

So far, we have one data point, Gene_WI, who says it's in fact not harsher than sentences for other people convicted of the same crime. In fact, he says the sentence was more lenient than for other people convicted of the same (or similar) crimes.

Does anyone have a different data point?

Mike

 

[neededausername]

I realize I'm new to gun ownership, but before I bought a gun I made sure I knew all the laws of my state. If I were to bring my gun or ammo across state lines I would make sure I wasn't breaking any laws. If I were to go to a different country, especially one that we aren't on good terms with at the moment, I would triple check to make sure I was in compliance. I agree the sentence is harsh, but he broke the law in a country that is on uneasy terms with ours at the moment. Don't give a judge a way to legally grandstand and flip the finger at our country.

That being said, I hope this ends up getting reduced to a small fine or something.

 

[jrfoxx]

I wouldnt be surprised if the sentence wasnt a dual-purpose kind of thing, where the Russian Govt shows they arent playing around with this kind of thing, and will give you a pretty hefty sentence, so they get to make an example, but than also know that after some State Dept. smoozing, they can turn around and lesson the sentence (or drop it, deport him, whatever) and get a few "see, we're nice guys willing to work with others" kind of points. Seems like a win-win scenario for them. Make an example of someone, and then use the same guy to buy some diplomatic brownie points. Makes sense to me....

 

[max popenker]

Well, the 3 years is an average term for illegal possession of live ammunition here. Add to this intentional smuggling, and you'll see that the pastor got not as much as he could in the worst case.

You know, Russian customs declaration form, which MUST be filled by any foreigner entering country, specifically lists firearms, ammunition and explosives as items that MUST be declared.

Pastor knew that he brought ammo with him, and he NOT declared the ammo on entry? He DID a felony the moment he submitted the improperly filled declaration at the border control, regardless of the number of cartridges. That's the fact.
Had he declared the ammo, the worst he could get would be the confiscation of the said box of ammo, since he got no Russian legal firearms permit. But he was stupid enough to try and fool government, and (any) government is not forgiving on such tricks.
So - he got what he got. Sorry for his family, but that's the Darwin lite in the act, in my humble opinion.

 

[RDak]

Well, there you have it. Thanks for the info. Max!

 

[JohnBT]

"You know, Russian customs declaration form, which MUST be filled by any foreigner entering country, specifically lists firearms, ammunition and explosives as items that MUST be declared."

There's always someone who just has to inject facts into a thread.

Thanks.

John

 

[Daemon688]

I hope you weren't referring to my last post, but instead to someone else's. If your post is in response to mine, then you misunderstood what I was trying to say and I may need to edit mine for clarity. I wasn't making excuses for anyone. He broke the law. He knows it, I know it, you know it, we all know it. I was just hoping that we could put the banter aside and keep this man, a pro 2A man who's on our side, in our thoughts and prayers. I doubt there are very many people, who, if found in the same situation and were facing jail time in any prison, much less a Russian prison, would not ask the sentencing judge for mercy and understanding.

Nope not referring to your post, but to all those who think the ruling is harsh, unfair, etc.

 

[RPCVYemen]

Well, the 3 years is an average term for illegal possession of live ammunition here. Add to this intentional smuggling, and you'll see that the pastor got not as much as he could in the worst case.

So we now have two data points that the sentence was in fact not hasher than for other people convicted of the same crime.

If that is true, the whether or not the judge was pressured or not doesn't really make any difference - either the judge was pressured and ignored or the judge wasn't pressured.

You know, Russian customs declaration form, which MUST be filled by any foreigner entering country, specifically lists firearms, ammunition and explosives as items that MUST be declared.

I didn't know that. That makes me even more curious about the pastor's claim that he didn't know that the laws were different. It appears to me that two things have come up in this thread:

1. Many people believe that being careful about weapons and ammo when travelling is common sense. Some of us assume that any country would deal pretty harshly with anyone smuggling ammo or weapons.
   
2. Even in the absence of what some of us believe is common sense, there was a written form that specified weapons and ammo. That form had to be filled out and signed.

I have to tell you that the pastor's claim that he didn't know that he was breaking the law is getting harder and harder to believe.

Pastor knew that he brought ammo with him, and he NOT declared the ammo on entry?

I have to agree. Signing a form that specifically asks you to list ammo, and not listing ammo is a stretch as far as a sin of omission. It sounds to me more like there might have been an intent to deceive the government.

Is it possible that the pastor in fact knew what he was doing was illegal, but thought it was "no big deal"? I am sort of getting that impression.

I have known people who played that game with US customs - "I'll won't declare this perfume. If they catch me, I'll pay a fine. No big deal." It's like a kid's game - "sneak it past the customs inspector" - where you pay some money if you lose.

I have never known anyone who played that game with ammo or weapons, but I wonder of that's what was really going on?

Mike

 

[Oleg Volk]

I used to live in Russia. I wouldn't consider visiting it even if I had the ability to armed and bring my own protective detail. Letter of the law is merely a guideline for their enforcement organizations.

 

[shdwfx]

So we have "two data points" from anonymous internet sources (that may well be right), and that is enough to think the guy lied on the entrance form?
Maybe.

I've filled out those country entrance forms and there is opportunity for error - think fill out tax form by hand without a guide.
Maybe he made a mistake.
Maybe he was "playing the game."
I don't think we have enough info to judge that one.

I'm still disturbed by the general attitude: it's the law so suck it up.
There are countries that chop off the hands of thieves too.
Would we say that's reasonable or just for any country or nationality of the offender?

3 years rotting away in a Russian prison for 20-rounds of ammo.
This for a fellow gunnie who regularly travels to Russia for charitable works.
IF the Russian legal system strictly followed the letter of the law (not true, see Oleg's comment) and IF the minimum sentencing were 3 years, maybe the legalists here would have a case. They don't.
There's a reason human judges are behind the bench instead of a machine handing out sentencing.

For myself, I'd take anything coming out of Russia with a huge grain of salt.

Muzzy_B, please update us on the status of the appeal when you know. Thanks.

 

[TexasRifleman]

So we now have two data points that the sentence was in fact not hasher than for other people convicted of the same crime.

If that is true, the whether or not the judge was pressured or not doesn't really make any difference - either the judge was pressured and ignored or the judge wasn't pressured.

But what you have is a case where a simple box of ammo becomes smuggling instead of a more "realistic" charge of just bringing the ammo in illegally.


THAT is the problem. He clearly broke some law in this, but smuggling is just a ridiculous charge and the fact that smuggling was upheld at all is what the Wall Street Journal radio news is saying comes from religious pressures from the Orthodox church against this "evangelical".

Your "data mining" doesn't really play out in the real world of politics.

Speaking of which, how is this gun related again?

 

[shdwfx]

Well, it started out discussing the legalities and punishments for bringing firearms/ammunition to other countries on a trip...

 

[Cosmoline]

The judge wants a better bribe. For all the many faults of our justice system, there *IS* no justice system in the former USSR. This fellow apparently didn't understand the need to grease the ol' wheels with greenbacks.

These people absolutely detest Americans, to boot. And American evangelicals are among the most detested of all. It's unwise to let yourself fall into their clutches. Like a mouse arguing with a cat over a piece of cheese. The cat doesn't care about the cheese, it's you he's after.

 

[Gene_WI]

The law is the law. Breaking laws and getting arrested will not change them!!!

That is all. It is just like the NFA in the US. Like it or not, but violating the laws will not yield change. It will get you incarcerated.