Uberti vs Colt

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Guys I've been wanting either a .45 colt, .44 spl, or even a .44-40 single action in a more original flavor which is why I'm ruling out ruger and freedom arms fantastic weapons though they are. Is there any reason to spend the extra money on a colt saa than say a uberti El patron? This gun would be used mainly as a fun gun and sometimes hunting sidearm which any of these calibers would be fine to use.
 
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I'd go with the Uberti for a shooter, although I have a fair amount of ambivalence saying it. All things being equal (which they never are), I like buying American. Having said that Colt's quality has recently been spotty, while Uberti's seems to keep getting better.
then there's the price disparity
YMMV
 
Barry the Bear

I had the same quandary several years ago. I already had an older Vaquero and wanted something more along the lines of a Colt SAA. Finally had enough money where I could buy a Colt or else spend it on a lot of other somethings. Decided quantity gave me more options versus quality and I went with a new Beretta Stampede and a like new Rossi Model 92 carbine, both in .45 Colt. Very pleased with my decision as both have been great and I'm not worrying about treating them with kid gloves every time I take them out. I want to enjoy using my guns, not trying to keep them in mint unfired condition in storage in the back of the safe.

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There is nothing that says american history like a Colt. They're durable excellent handling firearms. I shoot mine. That's what they were made for. I don't buy guns for their resale value and don't care if they show honest wear. I buy them to use them.
 
The extra money? A Colt starts used at about 2 grand. About $500 for the Uberti BNIB. You think a big kid's toy is worth $1500 more for the name on it?
1024 x 768 pixels is too big.
 
Uberti's are very good guns for the money. They're well made, well finished and they hold up to constant use. That said, a Colt is simply a better gun. How much better will depend on the individual gun because Colt turned out some real turds during 3rd generation production. The guns of the last few years are much better than anything prior. Is it enough better to justify the cost? Maybe, maybe not. The Colt does have real color case hardening and that's important to some.

I wouldn't have sank a bunch of money into my favorite Uberti if they were not good guns.

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Colts are better, usually made of better steels and better finished. They're not perfect and still need professional tuning. Some complain about Turnbull's case colors, I complain about the contrast of Colt's flat looking colors against the period incorrect bright polished hot salt blue. Not to mention the white sided hammer.

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The best SAA's were manufactured by US Firearms out of Hartford. Period correct finishes, high attention to detail, beautiful machine work, near perfect finish work, slick actions and more spirit of the original Colt than Colt. You can also count on chamber dimensions being right for the cartridge. Something Colt still can't get right. The hitch here is that since they stopped making them, prices have skyrocketed.

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On the resale issue. This is a commonly regurgitated reason for buying a Colt and it's nonsense. A 3rd generation gun will never be worth much more than what you paid for it. Stick a new $1500 Colt in the safe for five years and it'll still be worth $1500 or whatever current retail is. Same for a $500 Uberti. Use the Colt for five years and it won't be worth $1500 any more. Same for a $500 Uberti. If you want a Colt that fits this answer, it will have to be a 1st or 2nd generation.


The extra money? A Colt starts used at about 2 grand. About $500 for the Uberti BNIB. You think a big kid's toy is worth $1500 more for the name on it?
1024 x 768 pixels is too big.
A used Colt would be little more than half that in the US. A kid's toy???

Maybe your monitor is too small?
 
I recently tested a New Frontier in .45 Colt and was very disappointed with the accuracy. That said, I just took delivery of this Cimarron and so far so good.

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For a gun I'm going to put through the paces I'll take a Cimarron model P any day over a Colt.

If you are concerned about the finish being more accurate then get the Cimarron US finish so it is real case colored and not the fake stuff.
 
Howdy

Two isn't uberti/cimmaron the same company?

No, Uberti is a manufacturer, as is Pietta. Cimarron, Taylors, and a few others are importers. They do not manufacture anything.

One what do you mean by real case hardening? How is it fake?

Case hardening, true case hardening, is a process that infuses extra carbon into the surface of iron or steel. At its simplest level, steel is simply iron with a small amount of carbon added. Other metals such as nickel or chromium may also be added, but, basically you start with iron and about .05 - .15% carbon. This is called mild or low carbon steel. One of the properties of steel with this amount of carbon in it is it remains malleable. Relatively soft. Good for absorbing shocks without cracking. Malleable iron and steel can be worked by heating and hammering as the old blacksmiths used to do. But malleable iron and steel are relatively soft and will wear easily.

Case Hardening is a process that infuses a bit more carbon into the surface of the steel. By infusing more carbon into the surface a thin layer, or case of hardened steel is formed. This surface then exhibits better wear resistance than the rest of the body of the part.

Case Hardening was developed long before modern heat treatable steel alloys existed. Ruger's frames, for example, are heat treated and hardened all the way through.

True Case Hardening is a labor intensive process, so it is expensive. The parts are packed in a carbon bearing medium, often bone or leather, and sealed in a crucible and heated in a furnace. Once the correct temperature is reached, the carbon will have migrated to the surface of the steel. The parts are then removed and quenched in water or oil.

The brilliant colors of Case Hardening are only a byproduct of the process. They have no inherent properties of their own, and are actually relatively fragile and can be erased by harsh chemicals, bright sunlight, or simply the passage of time.

Case Hardening was an excellent solution for frames of revolvers in the 19th Century because parts so treated remained relatively ductile, able to absorb the shock of cartridges firing, while the surface was hard enough to resist wear from the moving parts.

Even though the brilliant colors of Case Hardening had no intrinsic value by themselves, the 19th Century shooting public loved the brilliant colors, so each firearm manufacturer jealously guarded their Case Hardening process.

Uberti and the other Italian manufacturers do not use true Case Hardening. They use a chemical process which does impart some hardness to the outer surface of the steel, and does give some nice colors, but it is not true Bone Case Hardening. That is one reason the Italian imports are less expensive than Colts.

This 2nd Gen Colt was made in the mid 1970s. The colors on the frame were a bit more vivid when I bought it. Ten years or so of CAS and Black Powder have caused the colors to fade. But even though the colors have faded, the hardened case remains.

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This Cimarron/Uberti Cattleman has the typical Uberti chemical induced colors.

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A number of years ago Ruger was adding a finish to their blued Vaqueros that that resembled Case Hardening. It was only a chemical wash, since the frames were heat treated and hardened all the way through. Here is an 'original model' Vaquero with that finish. Notice how blotchy it looks compared to the Colt.

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Here is a New Vaquero with the same treatment. Pretty blotchy.

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After a while Ruger completely did away with the fake case colors and Vaqueros are only available now in Stainless or completely blued frames.

Even though Case Hardening is an obsolete process for firearms today, it still holds a cachet and that is why gun companies still use it or imitate it.

Colt still uses real Bone Case Hardening.



Look at how brilliant the colors are on the hammer of this S&W New Model Number Three, manufactured in 1882 and refinished at the factory in 1965.

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While we're on the subject, in the 1930s Smith and Wesson Trademarked the Case Hardening process they use on their hammers and triggers in an effort to keep cheap European imitations out of the country. This is a pretty typical S&W hammer from that era.

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For a while, S&W was stamping REG.U.S.PAT.OFF on the rear of their hammers in an effort to enforce their trademark.

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A few more photos.

I consider myself lucky to own a couple of 2nd Gen Colts. They are most definitely not safe queens. They get taken out and shot with Black Powder in CAS all the time. The top one is the 1970s SAA pictured in a previous post. The bottom one was made in 1968, but it looks much older. Some previous owner removed almost all the finish on it, probably in an effort to make it look like an antique. All that is left of the Case colors are some gray blotches. After ten years in CAS being shot with nothing but Black Powder, it has developed quite a patina. When I first bought it, for a very good price by the way, I planned on having it refinished. Wouldn't dream of it now.

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Another NOT safe queen. A Bisley 38-40 1st Gen from about 1906 or so, I don't recall exactly right now. Hardly any finish on it at all. Loads of fun to shoot, Black Powder only.

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So.............is there reason to spend the extra money on a Colt? For me, yes.



A few things you will find on a real Colt that you will not find on an Uberti:

Forged and machined hammer, not cast, with the knurling cut in with a knurling tool, not a cast on detail. Uberti in front, Colt at the rear.

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Rear sights. Colts have been using a square notch for the rear sight for a long time now. Not the same as the 'V' shaped notch that Uberti uses, which is reminiscent of the 1st Gen rear sight. But that square notch is a lot easier for old eyes to see.

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Colt presses a hardened insert in the recoil shield to prevent the metal from peening over and raising a burr where the firing pin flashes through.


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No hardened insert in the Uberti. The gouges are where I cut away a burr that was starting to form.

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Real Case Hardening

Is it worth it to you? That's up to you.
 
Driftwood, the Cimarron US finish IS real case color hardening. The process is not done by Uberti. The guns are disassembled and the case color process is done by Classic Guns LTD.

Everyone says a Cimarron or Taylors is the same gun as a plain Uberti/Stoeger but it is not always the case depending on options and model. Plus the Cimarron carries more accurate stamping and such rather than the ugly block letters on a Stoeger.

Any Cimarron I have ordered with special finishes such as their nickel plating or US finish also comes with an excellent action right out of the box because their gunsmith has had the gun apart. Not the same gun as when the Uberti gorilla assembled it.

I just recently sent some parts to Classic Guns to be case hardened to match other US finished I have from Cimarron. Good people to deal with.
 
The root question here is Colt worth the extra money? I don't think so because so much of that extra cost is on the brand name. Is the workmanship in a Colt better? Yes and no. Their materials are top notch, the best steel and wood are put in the Colts, but what's going to vary is who ran the machine that day? A skilled guy with 20 years experience or a noob whose only been there four months? Same question applies to who inspected and who assembled it.

Does Uberti have the same issues? Of course, but the difference is that you take the chance on both and with the Uberti, you have put less into that chance. A well made Uberti works just as well as a well made Colt for a lot less and as others have said, you're more likely to use the Uberti since you've haven't put a lot of money into it.

If you want to roll the dice and pay thousands on the Colt, that's your decision and your money. You can get a lot of that money back down the road if you are dissatisfied and sell it, but you'll also get a good sum of money back from reselling a Uberti too and more likely to find a buyer as it's a cheaper gun.

The question only you can answer is do you want the piece of mind of having a cheaper gun or not?
 
Is the workmanship in a Colt better? Yes and no. Their materials are top notch, the best steel and wood are put in the Colts, but what's going to vary is who ran the machine that day? A skilled guy with 20 years experience or a noob whose only been there four months? Same question applies to who inspected and who assembled it.

Not really. Both have been using CNC machines for a long time now. There is no machining skill required to run a CNC machine. The operator loads blanks onto a fixture on the machine, the machine does all the rest. As a matter of fact, most CNC operators today have to keep their eye on more than one machine at a time. Which makes parts less expensive to produce. The programmers need a thorough understanding of machining practices to create the programs.

Is the quality of Colt parts better than Uberti?

YES!! ABSOLUTELY!!

Didn't you see the photos I posted?

I have been inside Plenty of Uberti firearms, particularly their rifles. It is a disgrace how many burrs and rough surfaces are left behind on their parts, because the feed rates are set too high. But that is another reason that Ubertis are less expensive. Faster feed rates means more parts per hour. Time is money.
 
Not really. Both have been using CNC machines for a long time now. There is no machining skill required to run a CNC machine. The operator loads blanks onto a fixture on the machine, the machine does all the rest. As a matter of fact, most CNC operators today have to keep their eye on more than one machine at a time. Which makes parts less expensive to produce. The programmers need a thorough understanding of machining practices to create the programs.
You are totally wrong about that. I know, I'm a CNC machinist/programmer. It takes more skill than that to hold close tolerances, even in CNC's. Yes, operators will operate more than one machine, but again, it comes down to the quality of the operator to know when something is wrong. If it was that easy to make a gun, Cobra's would function just like Sigs.

And like I said, it's not just the machining, it's inspection, fitting, assembly, testing, etc. that make a good quality gun.
 
To bring this conversation back into focus, is the extra quality of the steel and the deburr processes added to the Colt worth an extra $1000 or $1500? I personally can't say it is, but others might. Does the quality of the steel in Colt's mean the steel in the Uberti's are pure junk? Hell no.
 
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