UK Handgun Ownership/Carry

[Onmilo]

This is what I know about owning firearms in England as it stands right now.
Handguns are extremely difficult to own.
Hanguns must now have a barrel of some 16" in length and a wrist support, similar to wire type stocks.
Semi Auto rimfires, rimfire revolvers, centerfire revolvers and black powder muzzleloaded revolvers are the main choices and it is a gigantic pain to get the permit.
Also the pistol must be stored at your shooting club, you can't take it home with you.
There are some Cowboy Action clubs that are allowed to have shorter barrelled caplock revolvers (Blank Firing Guns) for "Gunfighter" demonstration purposes (Cowboy Shows) but the barrels are solid most of the way through and they are still treated as any other handgun.
Shotguns are fairly easy to get permitted for as are .22 rimfire rifles and suppressors for rifles are quite common and legal to own.
Easier to own suppressors there than here in the USA actually.
If you qualify for a rifle permit, you automatically qualify for a suppressor.
Rifle barrels must be 16" or longer, magazine capacity is limited to 10 shots
Shotguns are limited to 2 shots and can be single shot, pump, O/U or SXS
Barrel must be 26" or longer.
Pump guns, even 2 shot pump guns are considered extremely unsporting.
As for rifles, bolt action, single shots, O/U & SXS as well as combination guns are predominant.
My friend lives up near Grimsby in the north of England and THINKS one can own certain semi automatic rifles, mainly Ruger Mini 14 and 10/22s as he has seen them in shops, but magazine capacity in these guns is limited to 5 shots though they too can have a suppressor legally installed.
Ammunition is about 4X as expensive in England, even shotgun shells are quite expensive.
A $5 box of .22s here in the USA will cost 13 Quid there which is about $20 at current exchange rates.
My buddy tells me anybody packing a gun in England is either Intelligence Services, SAS, or a criminal.Avoid talking to them at any and all costs.

 

[Onmilo]

At least you can kinda sorta ccw in California.
I live in the ONLY state in the union that doesn't see fit to consider its citizens as people of free will and common sense,,,

 

[Iramo94]

Even in their zombie movies they have to use cricket bats etc.. like in Shaun of the Dead. tsk tsk.

I found it funny that the probably illegal lever gun saves the day in that movie.

 

[hq]

The UK has a problem with attitude. They've been slowly snowed by their government into being dependent on a welfare state and politely swallowing regulation after regulation because they are told they'll be safer and more civilized. THAT is the root of their lack of access to firearms.

Artificial, ever-increasing dependency of the state and government is a disease. When people have been brainwashed into believing that safety and security are somehow collective issues rather than a matter of taking personal responsibility, things have gone horribly wrong. It's in the best interest of government and politicians to make people as dependent on them as possible; security and finances are the most effective way to do it. People who can't defend or support themselves are easy pray to malicious politicians. High taxation and draconian gun laws are commonly used instruments to achieve this goal.

"Government knows best" -mentality. Politicians claim that the police will protect you (in theory) and the state will support you financially (with money taken by force from other people), and expect you to be grateful for it. It's sick and disgusting that so many spoon-fed individuals can vote for a living and, at the same time, unleash their psychotic envy and hatred against those who in fact ARE capable of taking responsibility for their own security and finances.

Much of the hope has been lost in countries like the UK. There are exceptions to this generalization, of course, but the vast majority of population don't question high taxes or a collective concept of security. That's what they've been brainwashed to believe. Literally.

Personally, I MUCH prefer game to processed food, being able to counter a possible threat myself to being dependent on police arriving in time, and working for a living to trusting the government to funnel me money someone else has worked hard for. I'm the kind of person socialist, totalitarian and power greedy politicians hate and despise. My vote can't be bought with empty promises, imaginary threats and other people's money.

Unfortunately, too many people's votes can.

Ok. I'm off the soapbox now.

 

[oneounceload]

There was a news article a few months back about a retired military person seeing a handgun from his window near a dumpster. Being civic minded for kids' safety, he gets the gun and brings it to local constabulary - who promptly arrest for illegal gun possession and IIRC he was sentenced to a severe jail sentence when all he was trying to do was to turn it in so some kid didn't find it.

I have friends who live in the UK and here in States. The rise in slashing attacks by gangs of youth - mostly of Middle-Eastern decent - has risen alarmingly as they will run by you and slash you or a purse strap with a box cutter and keep running. All those cameras do nothing to prevent crime - merely let the police watch it happen and try to solve it later (Unless, of course and just like here, the miscreants are from certain PC-protected groups)

 

[7thCavScout]

Both Australia and the UK in the last 70 years faced the very serious threat of being invaded by a foreign aggressors. And now they have some of the strictest gun laws. *Scratches head*

 

[Odd Job]

This is what I know about owning firearms in England as it stands right now.
Handguns are extremely difficult to own.
Hanguns must now have a barrel of some 16" in length and a wrist support, similar to wire type stocks.
Semi Auto rimfires, rimfire revolvers, centerfire revolvers and black powder muzzleloaded revolvers are the main choices and it is a gigantic pain to get the permit.

That's not entirely correct.
Firstly, you can't have a rimfire pistol (and I mean "pistol" in the traditional sense of the word where it would not be out of place in a holster and would be practical to use one-handed).

You can have a black powder pistol if it is on a Section 1 Firearms Certificate (FAC). It is no more difficult to get that than it is to get a Ruger 10/22 for example.
You can get any bolt action or other manually loading rifle you want on a Section 1 FAC. This applies to lever guns, lever release guns, single shot rifles and revolving carbines.
The only self-loading rifles permitted are rimfire, typically in the .22 family. There are no magazine restrictions.

You can have a long-barreled revolver but the barrel mustn't be shorter than 30cm. IIRC the overall length of the pistol must be 60cm or more. You don't need to have a wire protrusion on the handle, but there aren't that many guns which meet that requirement without some kind of grip protrusion or wire stock. I've personally only tried a Uberti 1873 Buntline in .357 down at the club, that had an 18" barrel like this one:

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/revolver-carbine-and-buntline.php

I concede that these guns are best thought of as carbines and they look totally ridiculous in a holster.

Shotguns: you can have as many as you want on a Section 2 FAC but then you are limited to three cartridges (whether it is a pump or semi-auto).
If you want a Section 1 shotgun you then have no limits on magazine capacity, you could use a 50 round drum mag if such a thing was available.

Suppressors: are licensed on a Section 1 FAC but these days there is no resistance to obtaining them because of the health and safety benefits. If you've got 3 .22s and a 9mm rifle on your FAC they will approve 3 .22 suppressors and a 9mm suppressor and you can go out and buy those from any dealer you like over the counter.

That's probably the only thing we have better in the UK than the US: the ease with which suppressors (or sound moderators, as they are called here) can be obtained.

Anyone wanting more than the above needs a Section 5 FAC, which covers all the other items such as self-loading centerfire rifles and pistols, automatic weapons and short barreled shotguns.

You can't have expanding ammunition unless you are killing animals and have permission from a farmer or other land owner to do this.

 

[Odd Job]

Artificial, ever-increasing dependency of the state and government is a disease. When people have been brainwashed into believing that safety and security are somehow collective issues rather than a matter of taking personal responsibility, things have gone horribly wrong. It's in the best interest of government and politicians to make people as dependent on them as possible; security and finances are the most effective way to do it. People who can't defend or support themselves are easy pray to malicious politicians. High taxation and draconian gun laws are commonly used instruments to achieve this goal.

I think that is the case in general, but there have been some surprising cases under the new Conservative government which probably would have gone a different way if the Labour government was still in power.
In two separate incidents robbers were shot with shotguns on house-owners' properties and the shooters were not convicted. There is a growing sense that home owners have the right to defend themselves on their property, I even saw a newspaper article with the headline "License to shoot burglars" or similar.

EDIT: here it is...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...aiders-fired-homeowners-isolated-cottage.html

I know it is less than ideal, but at least there is some hope that the situation does not decline further. I think the London riots helped a lot also: we had record numbers of people turning up on the first Sunday of the month wanting to try out firearms. It has been busier at the club and continues to be busy.

 

[razorback2003]

HQ,

How hard is it for you to own a gun in finland? You said that you own machine guns and can shoot them? Can you carry a handgun for protection or keep one at home for protection?

 

[razorback2003]

OddJob,

Can people own the long barreled Thompson Center Contender/Encore handguns since those have long barrels?

 

[Odd Job]

I don't know, it seems to me they are shorter than the Buntline I posted a link to. I can find out from the importer...

 

[Onmilo]

Thanks Odd job.
My buddy isn't a gun person and was relating to me what he understood the laws and requirements to be.
He still thinks rimfire pistols are legal as long as they have an 18" barrel and a wrist support.
His belief comes from seeing a couple being shot at a target range,
He thinks the guns were a Ruger Mkll auto and he thinks the other one was a Browning Buckmark.

As for shotguns, I questioned the 2 round limit on pump guns but he really wasn't sure & still thinks all shotguns are limited to but two shots.
I asked again about semi auto shotguns as I remember seeing a video of a driven pheasant hunt where one of the hunters was using a Browning Auto 5 but he swears semi auto shotguns are a no-no.

He also wasn't sure what the license requirements were to obtain certain restricted items either though he did tell me that guns aren't as totally restricted in the UK as some people might believe.

 

[Odd Job]

He still thinks rimfire pistols are legal as long as they have an 18" barrel and a wrist support.
His belief comes from seeing a couple being shot at a target range,
He thinks the guns were a Ruger Mkll auto and he thinks the other one was a Browning Buckmark.

Yep, you can get a long barreled rimfire, but it won't be a "pistol" in the traditional sense of the word, more like a carbine.

 

[hq]

HQ,

How hard is it for you to own a gun in finland? You said that you own machine guns and can shoot them? Can you carry a handgun for protection or keep one at home for protection?

Unfortunately much of this is "grandfathered" nowadays. I have an equivalent of CCW (handgun license for personal protection) and full auto collector status, both of which date back to late 80's and early 90's. Fortunately they don't have an expiration date. These have been pretty much impossible to get since 1998 when the law was changed; there are still thousands of these licenses and collector approvals in existence but their holders aren't getting any younger.

Each gun is licensed individually. Collectors can automatically get a purchase license for anything that's listed in their collecting plan, be it machine guns or even artillery. All sporting firearms are subject to approval by the police, according to guidelines which are nowadays downright idiotic. Age limit for any sporting gun license used to be 15 until June 13th last year, now it's 18 for long guns and 20 for handguns.

It doesn't end there. All applicants must provide a mental health certificate from a doctor, take an evaluation test at a police station, prove that they actually have a history of shooting sports (when you apply for your first license, two years with a rental gun under supervision at a shooting club) and/or a valid hunting license. The gun has to be particularly suitable for the stated application, which is mainly an excuse to deny anyone any license.

To keep a gun license issued after June 13th last year you'll have to be able to prove that you've been shooting regularly (a signed certificate from an official, police-approved "instructor") or the gun will be confiscated. Deactivating a firearm yourself is a felony.

During last 15 years everything has pretty much gone down the drain. We "old farts" are still covered, especially those of us who have a collector status. Between '08 and '11 I was on a massive shopping spree, mainly because fewer and fewer people were eligible for a purchase license and there was a nationwide fire sale of handguns - $150 S&W target revolvers, $200 Beretta 92:s, $100 Colt Woodsman Match Targets and so on. The funny thing is, I'm not eligible for new handgun licenses anymore - I have a shooting range of my own and I have failed to invite a police-approved "instructor" there to watch me shoot. Machine guns are not a problem.

The real problem is twofold; not many people want to jump through all the idiotic legal hoops anymore and unlicensed illegal guns have become common, not that much among violent and career criminals but regular people who just want to have something to plink with. On the other hand, if you want to hunt or compete, you have no choice but to obey the law and people like that are the least likely to commit any kind of crime to start with.

There has been talk about introducing a personal gun license, a card that allows you to buy, keep and sell the types of firearms approved in the license. That would make things a lot easier but left-wing politicians and especially government officials oppose that, because it would cut down bureaucracy and prevent them from exercising strict control on people who the least need it. They don't want to be told that it's not up to them to decide whether I, for example, will be more "dangerous" after buying my ~40th handgun instead of having just 39 of them; they just want to reduce the number of firearms in private hands, no matter what. That's what their twisted ideology is all about.

Personally I have a molon labe mindset. I stay legal, but take all attacks on legally owned private property as infringement of the constitution.

 

[Odd Job]

Sounds similar to the UK then, for a first-time firearms applicant. We don't have to get a mental health "clearance" or take any kind of test but it is expected that your GP alert the police if you have any condition that makes it unwise for you to be in possession of a firearm.
We don't need a 2 year "history" of using firearms but they generally want you to be a member of a club and have one of the club officials vouch that during a probation period of a few months you have not exhibited any untoward behaviour (mainly to do with the safe handling of firearms).

There are limits also, with regards to same calibre weapons (excluding Section 2 shotguns). You generally have to satisfy the police that you have a "need" for multiple weapons of the same calibre. For example if you have three .22s it is expected you would have them for different purposes. You could have an Anschutz bolt for prone shooting, a SIG522 for gallery and another semi-auto for 3 position shooting.

 

[hq]

Fortunately we don't have any limitations on number of firearms. Licenses for some types of firearms are scrutinized a bit more than others (SBR, .50cal+) but generally speaking you can get as many licenses as you want, for anything from handguns of any caliber to carbines/rifles and shotguns with no artificial restrictions. As long as you're ready to jump through the legal hoops and put some effort in officially proving your sport shooting history, of course.

Defensive use depends on the situation. With an (old) CCW you can still carry, at home you can respond to armed threats, which includes knives and blunt weapons. There's no castle doctrine, though, so you have to be back against the wall before you pull the trigger. Very few criminals are armed, even though sanctions for possessing unlicensed firearms are very lenient (machine gun = usually a small fine and a few months of probation) and the country is literally full of unlicensed WWII guns, both as souvenirs and stashes.

 

[lykoris]

I would never like to take my chances within the UK justice system when it comes to a home invasion and their concept of "reasonable force". In fact, I find this notion entirely absurd given a fight or flight response is our natural primate reaction and for those with families or loved ones that really leaves only one choice.

So if you are unfortunate enough to have to defend yourself with a firearm in the UK your future will depend upon whether a judge & jury in a court months/years later decides you used "reasonable force" given the circumstances. In the past I have only seen the law siding with the intruder, by in large, within the U.K.

You also have to justify every single firearm you purchase, you cannot have 3 rifles in the same calibre unless you can distinguish distinct usage for each firearm.

That being said, you guys do have very liberal hunting laws which is a bonus in comparison to the continent.

 

[splattergun]

Sorry, Sam, but flat murder numbers show nothing (as the population of Detroit is 713,000, and the U.K. is 62 million). You need to look at population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
U.K. murder rate per 100,000 people: 1.2
U.S. murder rate: 4.2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
Detroit: 34.5 (4th in nation)
Chicago: 15.2 (18th in the nation).

Yeah, you're far more likely to get murdered in Detroit or Chicago (or virtually any city with more than 200,000 people in the U.S.) than in the U.K.

HQ: do you have any sources to back that up? Nationwide fraud is a serious allegation.

There are legitimate reasons why universties do not allow Wikipedia to be used as source material in reasearch papers etc. Not the least of which are self-serving articles, inaccurate and false data.

 

[Iramo94]

There are legitimate reasons why universties do not allow Wikipedia to be used as source material in reasearch papers etc. Not the least of which are self-serving articles, inaccurate and false data.

Five of the six citations on the Wikipedia page on America were from the FBI.
Wikipedia is just a convient place to collate primary sources.

 

[splattergun]

Five of the six citations on the Wikipedia page on America were from the FBI.
Wikipedia is just a convient place to collate primary sources.

A fair illustration of my point.

 

[Blackstone]

I own a handgun in Northern Ireland.

My friend lives up near Grimsby in the north of England and THINKS one can own certain semi automatic rifles, mainly Ruger Mini 14 and 10/22s as he has seen them in shops, but magazine capacity in these guns is limited to 5 shots though they too can have a suppressor legally installed.

There is no magazine capacity limit except in the case of "Section 2" shotguns, where pump/semi-autos are restricted to a tube capacity of 2. You may have semi-automatic rifles but in .22lr only.

If you qualify for a rifle permit, you automatically qualify for a suppressor.

No, you must justify the purpose of each suppressor you intend to possess, and it will be noted down as conditions on your certificate.

A $5 box of .22s here in the USA will cost 13 Quid there which is about $20 at current exchange rates.

Assuming you're talking a box of 50 .22 rounds, that will cost you on average £4, which is about $6 at current exchange rates.

My buddy tells me anybody packing a gun in England is either Intelligence Services, SAS, or a criminal.Avoid talking to them at any and all costs.

Highly unlikely, except if you're in Northern Ireland. Case in point:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20536558

I asked again about semi auto shotguns as I remember seeing a video of a driven pheasant hunt where one of the hunters was using a Browning Auto 5 but he swears semi auto shotguns are a no-no.

Semi autos/pumps are definitely okay. If you want the magazine capacity limit removed, you need to apply for them as "Section 1", which means you must have good reason to own one. Generally, you have to be part of the UKPSA (UK's IPSC organisation) and be participating in Practical Shotgun. That also lets you buy solid slug ammunition as well

 

[sidibear]

There is no requirement to be associated with or have anything to do with the ukpsa to own a multi capacity shotgun. The use in the sport of practical shotgun is usually a more than adequate reason.
I have been shooting PSG for four years and am not a member of the ukpsa, and I have a 12 shot SX3 to compete with, and a Spas 12 just for the fun of it.

With regards long barrelled revolvers I have a .45acp Taurus, and recently sold a .454 Casull Mateba Griffone. Semi auto pistols can be obtained along the lines of the Browning Buckmark, and only in .22, and have a minimum barrel length of 12" and minimum overall length of 24"
There is also a version of the 1911, in .22 and with the same minimum barrel and overall length, but people I know who have them are having reliability issues. in order to make the slide light enough for a .22 to cycle it, its made from light thin grade alloy, which over time seems to be cracking and breaking.

Blackstone, do you shoot at Ballymena?

 

[Blackstone]

It's true that there is no written requirement to be associated with UKPSA, but it's up to each individual police force and I believe a lot of them ask for UKPSA membership.

I shoot at Carrowdore.

 

[Odd Job]

It's true that there is no written requirement to be associated with UKPSA, but it's up to each individual police force and I believe a lot of them ask for UKPSA membership.

That's what happened in my case, the police wanted to know if I was a UKPSA member. I said no, but referred them to the club where they have target shotgun once a month. They granted me a Section 1 shotgun but specified it has to be used at the club. I got the distinct impression they don't want to grant those section 1 shotguns unless they have to, if you see what I mean...

 

[Grassman]

Fascinating thread....I've always wondered about gun ownership overseas.