UK has higher violent crime rate than USA?
- Thread starter Onward Allusion
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As has been stated people, all of us, tend to believe the statistics that support our beliefs... we just accept them... but when they go against our beliefs we always question them and will often even go to the trouble to disprove them... how often do 'we' take the effort to prove some statistic or item that we agree with?
Way before the internet I learned that most of the items you read in the newspaper have errors in them... the only way I can prove this is to say everytime I've read an article on something I consider myself an expert in, it has mistakes in it.... So, it stands to reason the articles that are about something I know nothing about would also have errors.... I suspect this goes for radio and TV media too and it is obvious with the internet... the only rule I can come up with is very paranoid.... believe nothing they tell you.
Way before the internet I learned that most of the items you read in the newspaper have errors in them... the only way I can prove this is to say everytime I've read an article on something I consider myself an expert in, it has mistakes in it.... So, it stands to reason the articles that are about something I know nothing about would also have errors.... I suspect this goes for radio and TV media too and it is obvious with the internet... the only rule I can come up with is very paranoid.... believe nothing they tell you.
Neverwinter
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That question ignores the locality of gun deaths in the US. A large proportion of the deaths resulting from violent crime involving guns occur in urban areas where drugs are involved. Not living in an urban area and being involved with drugs goes a long way toward minimizing your risk of violent death by gun.
On the UK side, I haven't seen anything to suggest that their violent crimes are limited by such localities.
I've been in my share of threads to know that that people on the anti-gun side do not have the monopoly on misinformation and delusion.
Onward Allusion
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They are actually a darn good source of stats. I used to scour the CIA World Factbook and FBI Stats for personal interest (yes - if you can believe that) but it was a pain sorting all the data. Kind of like a Wikipedia for numbers geeks.
Where is all this data from?
NationMaster compiles statistics from such sources as the CIA World Factbook, United Nations, World Health Organization, World Bank, World Resources Institute, UNESCO, UNICEF and OECD.
http://www.nationmaster.com/faq.php
http://www.nationmaster.com/about_us.php
Amb
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I'd be wary of those per capita numbers. The site shows total crimes for my native Belgium as about 1 million, and for the US as about 12 million. Given that the population of Belgium is about 10 million, vs 360 million for the US, you'd expect to see Belgium much higher than the US is the per-capita listing. And yet it doesn't show up at all.
Hocka Louis
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Scotland has the highest violent crime rate in the world per capita.
If u go to the Royal Armouries at Leeds you'll see they've tracked the rise of violent crime in the UK (top floor, guns and society area) since basically banning handguns and many other arms -- of course they do it very matter-of-factly.
Just as well -- the police would only prosecute those whom are less likely to resist. That is to say the law-abiding subject whose home and work address they'll have. A man's home is not his castle and whilst in it he has little more right to it than any tinker passing thru and certainly no right to defend his person or that property with force...
If u go to the Royal Armouries at Leeds you'll see they've tracked the rise of violent crime in the UK (top floor, guns and society area) since basically banning handguns and many other arms -- of course they do it very matter-of-factly.
Just as well -- the police would only prosecute those whom are less likely to resist. That is to say the law-abiding subject whose home and work address they'll have. A man's home is not his castle and whilst in it he has little more right to it than any tinker passing thru and certainly no right to defend his person or that property with force...
And it's nearly all confined to a couple of Glasgow postal districts. [zipcode, if you like]
Balrog said:
In the USA a significant portion of our homicide victims, and the perpetrators, are in the glorified gang/drug subculture. This is generally by choice, and so people have the choice to be subject to that much more dangerous lifestyle.
Even many of the 'innocent' victims are the girlfriends (choosing to date them) and siblings of those that are in that culture by choice.
If you remove these murders from the statistics the USA murder rate drops massively. Gang members killing gang members is a lot of the murders.
By contrast in the UK it is not members of a specific subculture that are the primary victims. It is anyone that a group of teens chooses to victimize at random.
They had a fad in the UK for years called the 'happy slap'. They would randomly slap, punch, or beat someone at random walking by and record it. Then laugh about how the oblivious victim just walking by got violently punched in the face or something similar..
I don't think such a fad would survive in the US, people would end up dead and the fad would die off before it got popular.
But in the UK it survived many years.
Most of the UK's violence targets the average person. Most of the USA's violence targets those that choose to be part of the gang and drug culture.
This means it is easier to avoid being shot or otherwise victimized as an adult in the USA than it is to avoid being victimized in the UK.
In the USA a significant portion of our homicide victims, and the perpetrators, are in the glorified gang/drug subculture. This is generally by choice, and so people have the choice to be subject to that much more dangerous lifestyle.
Even many of the 'innocent' victims are the girlfriends (choosing to date them) and siblings of those that are in that culture by choice.
If you remove these murders from the statistics the USA murder rate drops massively. Gang members killing gang members is a lot of the murders.
By contrast in the UK it is not members of a specific subculture that are the primary victims. It is anyone that a group of teens chooses to victimize at random.
They had a fad in the UK for years called the 'happy slap'. They would randomly slap, punch, or beat someone at random walking by and record it. Then laugh about how the oblivious victim just walking by got violently punched in the face or something similar..
I don't think such a fad would survive in the US, people would end up dead and the fad would die off before it got popular.
But in the UK it survived many years.
Most of the UK's violence targets the average person. Most of the USA's violence targets those that choose to be part of the gang and drug culture.
This means it is easier to avoid being shot or otherwise victimized as an adult in the USA than it is to avoid being victimized in the UK.
jad0110
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^^^ Great post. I could not have said it better. When growing up, my parents always stressed that I be careful and thoughtful about who I associate with. They also stressed the importance of running away from a fight between 2+ others, instead of sticking around to watch. Good advice that I've followed my whole life.
And that is why I rarely ever base pro gun arguments on statistics. I've had better luck just explaining my rationale, that I am responsible for the safety and security of my family and no one else, not even the police. Because if the police really can protect you, then there should be no crime, right? And no need for hired bodyguards like you see with the rich and famous, right? Sometimes that tact works better, at least gets them thinking a little.
And that is why I rarely ever base pro gun arguments on statistics. I've had better luck just explaining my rationale, that I am responsible for the safety and security of my family and no one else, not even the police. Because if the police really can protect you, then there should be no crime, right? And no need for hired bodyguards like you see with the rich and famous, right? Sometimes that tact works better, at least gets them thinking a little.
Living in Southern California, I have witnessed civil rioting on a few occasions. During those occasions I took some solace in the fact that I had the ability and freedom to own and carry fire arm protection.
This came to my mind as I watched the rioting in London.
This came to my mind as I watched the rioting in London.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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I recall seeing a UK newspaper at least 10 years ago with a large banner headline:
"It's Official-UK Rate of Street Crime Twice that of US!" This was some years after their total ban on private owneship of handguns and when the Labour Party was still in power.
"It's Official-UK Rate of Street Crime Twice that of US!" This was some years after their total ban on private owneship of handguns and when the Labour Party was still in power.
heatseeker8
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not to be a smart azz but..
statistics show that 87% of statistics are made up on the spot.
3 things I hate in this world are:
1. Lies
2. Damned Lies
3. Statistics.
statistics show that 87% of statistics are made up on the spot.
3 things I hate in this world are:
1. Lies
2. Damned Lies
3. Statistics.
Look at this link. It really show why the US has a murder rate higher than most Western European countries. :
http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2003/08/racist-recent-post-on-samizdata.html
http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2003/08/racist-recent-post-on-samizdata.html
Bernie Lomax
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Now, now, JJ. You're noticing all sorts of things you're not supposed to. You haven't been eating those red pills again, have you?
Unistat
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It is next to useless to compare crime statistics between two different countries without spending a huge amount of time re-correlating the data. What is reported as one type of crime in Country A could be reported as an entirely different crime in Country B. It's possible to do a very detailed study so that one can compare apples to apples, but it's very time consuming.
Neverwinter
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The article is fine as long as you completely ignore the non-sequitur conclusion at the end.
Jericho 941
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This is the last place where this argument should take place, because it inevitably leads to people questioning gun laws. I consider this to be one of the few forums where I can be open about my love of shooting and collecting firearms.
We are all responsible gun owners, but the ready availability of guns in this country makes it a far more dangerous place. While you might not get mugged or beat up by a drunk you are a lot more likely to get shot in this country than in the UK. That does not even mean you will die, but if I had to choose between a sound beating or a single gunshot wound I would take the beating.
I am a cop and I am still shocked by the number of people who get shot in this country. It happens practically everyday and I patrol a relatively small city in the Midwest. There are a lot of contrived arguments that only certain people commit crimes, but that is true anywhere. There are criminals everywhere you go. The difference here in the US is that those people have guns.
These guns are manufactured in the same plants that our guns are manufactured. They are frequently purchased from illegal gun runners who get them from gun shows and other seemingly legitimate sources. A person who has no criminal record can buy whatever they want here and then sell it for cash to anyone they please. They also steal them from people like us while we are at work so we can buy things to defend ourselves, which seems like the very definition of irony.
As an avid gun owner I am obviously in favor of gun ownership, but there is no denying that the prevalence of weapons in this country makes all the aforementioned statistics pretty moot in my opinion. Gun violence is a lot worse than what they have to offer in the UK. I've seen it first hand.
We are all responsible gun owners, but the ready availability of guns in this country makes it a far more dangerous place. While you might not get mugged or beat up by a drunk you are a lot more likely to get shot in this country than in the UK. That does not even mean you will die, but if I had to choose between a sound beating or a single gunshot wound I would take the beating.
I am a cop and I am still shocked by the number of people who get shot in this country. It happens practically everyday and I patrol a relatively small city in the Midwest. There are a lot of contrived arguments that only certain people commit crimes, but that is true anywhere. There are criminals everywhere you go. The difference here in the US is that those people have guns.
These guns are manufactured in the same plants that our guns are manufactured. They are frequently purchased from illegal gun runners who get them from gun shows and other seemingly legitimate sources. A person who has no criminal record can buy whatever they want here and then sell it for cash to anyone they please. They also steal them from people like us while we are at work so we can buy things to defend ourselves, which seems like the very definition of irony.
As an avid gun owner I am obviously in favor of gun ownership, but there is no denying that the prevalence of weapons in this country makes all the aforementioned statistics pretty moot in my opinion. Gun violence is a lot worse than what they have to offer in the UK. I've seen it first hand.
Shadow 7D
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Yeah, see here you have two guys fighting and they take it outside and one gets shot
In the UK, he gets beat to death with plastic beer mug
Once again, you see the failure is in HUMAN behavior, not inanimate object control
Jericho, how many rape victims have you had to comfort who were raped by a guy with a gun, and the cops waited for him to leave, lots of stories like that in Britain, and how they play sly with the numbers, I'd rather face that violent crime happens with a gun, and be able to be armed myself, that be disarmed and only criminals have guns, cause you know, cops are damn heavy to carry, and are only hours away with you need them NOW.
In the UK, he gets beat to death with plastic beer mug
Once again, you see the failure is in HUMAN behavior, not inanimate object control
Jericho, how many rape victims have you had to comfort who were raped by a guy with a gun, and the cops waited for him to leave, lots of stories like that in Britain, and how they play sly with the numbers, I'd rather face that violent crime happens with a gun, and be able to be armed myself, that be disarmed and only criminals have guns, cause you know, cops are damn heavy to carry, and are only hours away with you need them NOW.
Jericho 941
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-Shadow 7D
First off, it is hard to beat a man to death with anything, much less a beer mug. I have comforted plenty of people who got beat down and have wondered how they could have possibly survived their ordeal, but they frequently do.
I've never personally had to comfort a rape victim in any case either, but I do not think I would be able to act in that situation regardless of what I was armed with. I'm not SWAT or a psychologist and if I stormed a building in that case the suspect might shoot the victim just like they would in the UK. The best I could do would be to try to establish communication and make it impossible for the suspect to flee.
The situation is still the same in the UK. They could conceivably run in there and beat the dude up while maybe losing a few of their own, but just like the US they would have to wait for an armed response team. Otherwise the risk of the suspect killing the victim is pretty high.
Regardless of all of that, the situation you proposed is pretty ridiculous and has very little to do with this thread.
This is what I hoped to avoid though. Pointless splitting of hairs when we should be talking about the guns we love to shoot.
First off, it is hard to beat a man to death with anything, much less a beer mug. I have comforted plenty of people who got beat down and have wondered how they could have possibly survived their ordeal, but they frequently do.
I've never personally had to comfort a rape victim in any case either, but I do not think I would be able to act in that situation regardless of what I was armed with. I'm not SWAT or a psychologist and if I stormed a building in that case the suspect might shoot the victim just like they would in the UK. The best I could do would be to try to establish communication and make it impossible for the suspect to flee.
The situation is still the same in the UK. They could conceivably run in there and beat the dude up while maybe losing a few of their own, but just like the US they would have to wait for an armed response team. Otherwise the risk of the suspect killing the victim is pretty high.
Regardless of all of that, the situation you proposed is pretty ridiculous and has very little to do with this thread.
This is what I hoped to avoid though. Pointless splitting of hairs when we should be talking about the guns we love to shoot.
Shadow 7D
Member
I believe in that case the cops called back to see if he was done before sending an officer over to take the statements... mind you this is a story I read on the interwebz a few years ago, but it was from a newspaper over there, I think she sued the cops for not doing their job.
My point is, a disarmed society is not by any means a nicer one, but with weapons comes responsibility, and that's the crux, holding individuals responsible to societies standards. No law or punishment is 100 percent and providing victims isn't a way to discourage criminal behavior
The bobbies weren't armed as that would too 'militaristic' (and if you think about it, they had a pretty recent history of civil wars and a dictatorship) and any 'upstanding gentleman' (armed OF COURSE) would be there to render an armed response to any bobbies request for help.
My point is, a disarmed society is not by any means a nicer one, but with weapons comes responsibility, and that's the crux, holding individuals responsible to societies standards. No law or punishment is 100 percent and providing victims isn't a way to discourage criminal behavior
The bobbies weren't armed as that would too 'militaristic' (and if you think about it, they had a pretty recent history of civil wars and a dictatorship) and any 'upstanding gentleman' (armed OF COURSE) would be there to render an armed response to any bobbies request for help.
throdgrain
Member
*English person speaking here*
I dont don't know if per capita there is more violence here than in the USA, but it wouldnt suprise me.
Also, it is a fact that, also per capita, you guys kill each other far more than we do.
"Home invasion" ( a very American term) type crime here is pretty rare, however mugging in the cities I beleive is less rare, also fighting in pubs is MUCH more prevalent than anywhere I ever heard of.
Maybe we just like a fight
//edit
I'd like to just add, last week we had major riots in serveral big cities over a period of 3 to 4 days. This is a lawless place lately, full of greed and self-interest, created in my opinion by lefty governments paying out for too much social security. Four people died, 3 got run over by a rioter in a car, and 1 poor man got hit on the head while trying to put out a fire.
It aint no bed of roses here.
I dont don't know if per capita there is more violence here than in the USA, but it wouldnt suprise me.
Also, it is a fact that, also per capita, you guys kill each other far more than we do.
"Home invasion" ( a very American term) type crime here is pretty rare, however mugging in the cities I beleive is less rare, also fighting in pubs is MUCH more prevalent than anywhere I ever heard of.
Maybe we just like a fight
//edit
I'd like to just add, last week we had major riots in serveral big cities over a period of 3 to 4 days. This is a lawless place lately, full of greed and self-interest, created in my opinion by lefty governments paying out for too much social security. Four people died, 3 got run over by a rioter in a car, and 1 poor man got hit on the head while trying to put out a fire.
It aint no bed of roses here.
Last edited:
Bernie Lomax
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Actually, statistically speaking, home invasion is much rarer here in the states than in the U.K. (It's called "hot burglary" over there.) This is for rather obvious reasons.
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