Unwilling to pull the trigger.

[bogie]

Too many theoreticians have turned...

"Violence is not the only answer."

into...

"Violence is not the answer."

Sometimes, when all else fails, it is needed. But when you remove it from table, it seems like it is needed more.

Hmmm...

Having a Sun Tzu moment...

 

[Wetawd]

"God ordered the Jews to wipe out the Amalekites entirely and punished certain of the Jewish kings when they failed to prosecute the war with sufficient zeal."

I think it was men, women, children, livestock, leave no brick standing on another and burn it.

When God wipes out evil he's doesn't do it halfway. This guy was evil.

 

[Lewis68]

Lewis...Are you just playing or do REALLY not get it?

I'm not playing, but I think you are, with words.

You said:

Defending me and mine is my responsibility

I take responsibility for my actions

I am responsible for my defense

So, if you have the power to defend yourself (i.e. stop the attack from happening), and don't, you are partly responsible for the attack happening. Are you trying to tell us otherwise?

 

[springmom]

Lewis, did you log on and register on this forum just to argue with this guy? You do know there's other threads and other subforums to visit, right?????

Seriously, stop the nitpicking. He's been totally clear as to what he means, and this is getting tedious.

Springmom

 

[coloradokevin]

About six months after starting her job and moving into her new apartment a man entered her apartment around 3:00am and cornered her in the bedroom. She pointed the gun at him and he pulled out a knife telling her to drop the gun or he would kill her. She dropped the gun. He robbed, beat, and raped her telling her he would be back.

I asked if the gun malfunctioned and she told me that she "just could not pull the trigger on another human being". She has been through counciling and still has problems. I asked her if she could now after what she had been through and she replied that she still wasn't sure.

Later I asked my sister who has a CCW permit, if she could pull the trigger. She said "Yes, I'm 4'8" 90pounds and wouldn't stand a chance against a man." At least I know my sister doesn't think a gun is a magic talisman and is willing to shoot to protect herself.

Sorry to hear about your friend.

Some people are just incapable of killing another person! It is part of their personality, and probably a lot of what makes then a good person (and, unfortunately, a victim as well).

As a training point, this is a question that every gun owner needs to settle in their mind. It should go beyond just a fleeting thought, and you should really confront the issue... Are you comfortable with the idea that you may need to take someone's life to save your life, or that of another person?

Some people can not do this, for a number of different reason that even they may be unable to articulate. But, if you choose to exercise your right to bear arms, you should confront your inner-voice and determine where you stand on the issue!

Believe it or not, there are even some police officers who go on the job with the attitude that "I could never kill someone". I've seen it from a few academy recruits in my career. That is truly appalling to me, because when you choose to do my job you sign up knowing full well that you may be faced with the situation where you must shoot someone to save an innocent person's life!

Some people can get over this initial knee-jerk opposition to violence, while others can not.

Here is an interesting read if you have a moment, from a very well-respected speaker on this topic. I've attended one of his seminars, and it was quite an experience:

http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm

 

[Lewis68]

SpringMom, I have a question for you. If someone was about to be attacked by a Bear, and someone else knew it and had the power to stop it, but didn't, would they be partly responsible for the attack occuring?

 

[bloodedsky]

The onlooker to Bear & Co. would not be responsible in any way for the attack occurring.

Rather, s/he would hold, to some uncertain degree, responsibility for the attack continuing.

Splitting hairs is fun, isn't it, Lewis?

 

[Havegunjoe]

First her father should have his head examined for giving her a gun with no training. Second she should have taken her friend up on his offer to teach her to shoot. Third there is just no helping some people. After all she was through she “still wasn’t sure”.

 

[Lewis68]

Splitting hairs is fun, isn't it, Lewis?

Last post edited for you technical folks.

 

[MarcusWendt]

A sad story. I feel for her, but She'll be a victim until she decides not to be a victim.

I've taught my daughter almost since birth to fight back with every inch of your being. She's learning how to shoot now. I'm not raising a victim.

 

[revjen45]

G-d help the sub-human who thinks my wife wouldn't pull the trigger. She doesn't shoot as much as I do, but she has the warrior mindset and would not hesitate to shoot some creep who would do her harm. I guess criminals are perceptive enough to know who is a sheep and who isn't. That poor lady probably didn't present the image of someone willing to shoot to slide lock into his his chest, and he knew she wouldn't.

 

[MinnMooney]

"He tells her he'll be back and she's not sure now if she can pull the trigger? Unbelievable."
I agree!! Next time he might kill her.

 

[Sage of Seattle]

This, from Springmom's sig

Springmom
__________________
I will not be a victim!

is what's missing in that woman's life, not a gun, not training.

Just a pure mental outlook of how you're willing to be treated in life and what you're willing to do, no matter what.

The first step, IMHO, for this woman to take is to simply forgive herself. That, and only that, is the beginning of the healing process.

After that begins, then maybe she can start to address the issues of responsibility, not only to herself, but to others as well.

A tragic thing happened. I'm glad she's still alive; I hope she feels the same way.

 

[flphotoguy]

We have all heard that you can't give up smoking unless you want to. It is the same with guns. You can't just hand someone a gun and expect that they will know how to use it, or will be able to pull the trigger. Ala Dan is correct. I would rather be alive and asking for forgiveness. It is too late once you become a victim.

 

[springmom]

This, from Springmom's sig
Quote:
Springmom
__________________
I will not be a victim!
is what's missing in that woman's life, not a gun, not training.

Just a pure mental outlook of how you're willing to be treated in life and what you're willing to do, no matter what.

A good point.

Amusing side story: I was unloading groceries yesterday, got part way through and ended up having to do something in the house that kept me from going out and finishing the job....and closing the rear door on my car. Youngest Son comes home and grabs the stuff (good boy, Aaron!) and comes in, half-panicked. "MOM! ARE YOU OK?"

"Yeah, what's wrong?"

"I thought you'd been kidnapped, leaving your car open like that."

"Aaron, you know if somebody tried, there'd be a dead body out there."

silence.

"Yeah, true...and you'd make me clean that s*** up, too."

"Of course."

My mindset makes it less likely that I would freeze at the moment of truth, but it doesn't guarantee it. Comes close, maybe, but not completely 100% guaranteed.

Oh, and Lewis, I have no interest in playing, thanks.

Springmom

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Lewis,

If someone was about to be attacked by a Bear, and someone else knew it and had the power to stop it, but didn't, would they be partly responsible for the attack occuring?

Logical fallacy of false dilema. I haven't seen that one used in a long time. So tell me Lewis, if this person was say - Sioux indian and feels a reverent kinship with the bear would you still demand he kill his kinsman? Or if that person felt taking any life was abhorrent? Would you still require the choice? Or the more likely, the second person couldn't react without putting the victim in greater danger,possibly lethal danger, by his action?

Item last: suppose the victim had been teasing the bear, as tourists often do unwittingly. Would it not be an offense to Darwin and a detriment to the species to intervene?

Take care while you are invisioning your world of sunshine and roses to remember the sun causes heatstroke and skin cancer and the fertilizer those roses grow in smells very bad. And no world view ever survives first contact with the real world.

Selena

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi flphotoguy,

And a lot of people that would very much like to quit smoking just do not have the willpower to do so. Most people find violence repugnant. A good percentage of those people find the idea of committing violence as repugnant as having violence committed on them. I do not know what was going through that woman's mind at the time. And unless I should be unfortunate enough to have gone through that situation I'm not qualified to judge her actions.

Selena

 

[rainbowbob]

So, if you have the power to defend yourself (i.e. stop the attack from happening), and don't, you are partly responsible for the attack happening. Are you trying to tell us otherwise?

Wow! You ammused me at first, Lewis...Now you're just getting annoying.

I'll lay it out for you one more time and then I'm done.

I have NO responsibility for the choices and acts of an assailant (or anyone else). I have ALL of the responsibility for MY choices and actions. What is so hard about that?

 

[Lewis68]

I have NO responsibility for the choices and acts of an assailant (or anyone else).

I didn't ask if you were responsible for the choices and acts of an assailant. I asked if you were partly responsible for the attack occuing.

I have ALL of the responsibility for MY choices and actions.

So after making your choice of not stopping the attack, you are responsible for that choice. And your choice has a direct impact on whether on not the attack happens. Does it not?

 

[Lewis68]

Oh, and Lewis, I have no interest in playing, thanks.

Really? If you weren't interested in joining the discussion, why did you post this?

Lewis, did you log on and register on this forum just to argue with this guy? You do know there's other threads and other subforums to visit, right?????

Seriously, stop the nitpicking. He's been totally clear as to what he means, and this is getting tedious.

 

[neviander]

I would say, for a lot of men, it is the exact reverse situation, especially if you are protecting your family. I think a lot of men would have a hard time not emptying 2 or 3 clips into someone that posed such a serious threat. I would have a hard time not decapitating someone with my pocket knife if I caught them doing that to my wife.

As far as upbringing goes, 1 of my grandfathers was a staff sgt. in battle of the bulge and the other was in the korean war. They never specifically taught me to protect and defend at all costs, but I saw it. My paternal grandfather had an arsenal in the basement and at least 2 or 3 handguns in his room and if for whatever reason he didn't have access to a gun or any other weapon, fighting tooth and nail is always an option. He was more than willing to place himself in danger to protect himself and his.

It's a nature AND nurture thing, just like everything is. I feel for the woman in question.

It reminds me of the scene in Saving Private Ryan, at the end where private what's his name sat there and watched his friend die because he was frozen in fear; granted, at the end the german that impaled his friend caught a 30.06 from said onlooker, but that scene was infuriating, I'm sure, to a lot of people.
Life is precious and strange. Only the Good Book has all the answers.

 

[Lewis68]

Logical fallacy of false dilema. I haven't seen that one used in a long time. So tell me Lewis, if this person was say - Sioux indian and feels a reverent kinship with the bear would you still demand he kill his kinsman? Or if that person felt taking any life was abhorrent? Would you still require the choice? Or the more likely, the second person couldn't react without putting the victim in greater danger,possibly lethal danger, by his action?

Item last: suppose the victim had been teasing the bear, as tourists often do unwittingly. Would it not be an offense to Darwin and a detriment to the species to intervene?

Take care while you are invisioning your world of sunshine and roses to remember the sun causes heatstroke and skin cancer and the fertilizer those roses grow in smells very bad. And no world view ever survives first contact with the real world.

I think you may want to read my post (question) again. Rather then answer my question with a bunch of irrelevant questions and comments, why don't you just answer it, honestly.

"If someone was about to be attacked by a Bear, and someone else knew it and had the power to stop it, but didn't, would they be partly responsible for the attack occuring?"

 

[Zoogster]

Some people feel not being a victim is akin to being a predator.
That is often a stance seen by the antis.

Not wanting to pull a trigger is fine. I mean I myself would question the compassion of a woman that would be the mother of my children if she was almost eager to pull the trigger on a bad guy.
"Unwilling" to pull it is different. There should naturaly be more hesitation in a woman though.

One of the general differences between men and women is woman are less inclined to violence.
A girl inclined to violence would not be normal and may have some underlying issues, but a boy inclined to violence is just a boy being a boy sometimes. A boy is often rough, they play fight, and they enjoy it.
A girl usualy does not, but often enjoys pretend nurturing activities. These are very important natural things conditioning for later roles. Men are naturaly protectors and even needed as aggressors by society.
Women are mothers that will raise and nurture children, having to intimately care for them and instill compassion and love.
The two have some overlap, but they also have some great general differences that are important for balance.


A woman should be prepared and ready to defend herself, but if you turn a woman's mindset into that of a man's you would have done a disservice to the natural balance.
The perfect defensive mindset for a woman is not to just develop the mindset of a man, which is what many men seem inclined to try and do.

 

[Officers'Wife]

"If someone was about to be attacked by a Bear, and someone else knew it and had the power to stop it, but didn't, would they be partly responsible for the attack occuring?"

What you are describing is a complex situation not suited to simple answers. In such a case the benefit of the doubt belongs to the second part.

As I suggested to another poster. Hearts are for feeling and minds are for thinking. You appear to have the process backward. Until you correct that juvenile failing, your questions do not deserve consideration.

 

[Lewis68]

What you are describing is a complex situation not suited to simple answers. In such a case the benefit of the doubt belongs to the second part.

It's only complex if you don't want to (can't) admit to yourself the answer. Otherwise it's a "Yes" or "No" question.

As I suggested to another poster. Hearts are for feeling and minds are for thinking. You appear to have the process backward. Until you correct that juvenile failing, your questions do not deserve consideration.

No, I think you have it backwards, or you would be able to answer a simple question with your mind instead of your heart.