Unwilling to pull the trigger.

[bloodedsky]

Actually, Zoogster, your argument explains exactly why men rape women so often and why women as a group don't arm themselves en masse and come to one another's defense.

That man was just following his male instincts when he attacked the woman, who in turn was simply expressing her womanly instincts by submitting.

Y'know, people are people. You just can't generalize about them. There are too many exceptions for there to be any sort of "rule" in the first place.
That woman is not typical of all women, nor was that man typical of all men. Yet if your argument is to be applied to this situation, each person was acting exactly as her/his gender is meant to act.

If it had been a male who hesitated, rather than a woman, how would you explain his behaviour?

 

[Larryect]

Yes, absolutely! They both share some of the responsibility for the attack occuring. In this case, it's the assailant's fault for doing the attacking, and the victim's fault for not doing the stopping. They are both at fault for the attack occuring, because both of their choices contributed to it happening.

Actually, I find this disgusting. The ONLY one responsible for the attack is the attacker. :banghead:

The courts have even as much as said the police have no responsibility to prevent an attack on an individual. Apparently the courts don't believe the police are responsible for the attack either.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

How is this at all gun related anymore?

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Bazooka,

What is the point of a firearm unless you understand the rationale behind using it, or failing to use it? Firearms cannot be isolated from the myriad circumstances surrounding their use, many of them psychological. This thread still appears to be perfectly pertinent.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[cpaspr]

Lewis -

You are wrong. The young lady bears absolutely no responsibilty nor blame for the attack happening, nor for the attack continuing once she dropped the gun. She did not invite the rapist in, he invited himself. Her father gave her a gun, but no instruction in how to use it. Was it because he himself didn't know how to use it, but it was the best thing he could think of to help his daughter? None of us know, we weren't there, and we don't know any of the players.

That said, though, I can visualize a young lady holding a gun that she has no idea how it works or what it can, or cannot, do. I can visualize a vicious rapist holding a knife, and threatening to use it if she doesn't drop the gun. Anyone who has spent more than 3 hours in a kitchen making or helping make dinner knows what a knife can do. And with that knowledge, and her lack of knowledge about the gun, and what she could see standing in front of her, she dropped the gun. It was the best decision she felt she could make, based on the input she had available.

By the grace of God, she survived. But there is absolutely no way that she is in any way responsible for anything bad that happened that night. She made what she felt was the best decision she could in the circumstances.
________________

To put it in your own context, if you are sitting at a traffic light, and you look up and see that truck barreling down on you, and are simply frozen in disbelief for two seconds too long with a "Wait! No. That truck can't be barreling down on me, I must be imagining things." mindset, because it is so out of the ordinary, you are not responsible for getting hit. Your historical conditioning of having trucks usually stay in their lanes and at the appropriate speeds tells you it can't be happening. That it is, in fact, happening takes time to accept. That time lag does not magically transfer the responsibility to you, the crushee, any more than the young lady's dropping of the gun, based on what she did and did not know, transfer any responsibility to her.

 

[cpaspr]

Selena -

Post 190

"It's a tragedy, but the blame rests solely, squarely and completely on the piece of trash that attacted her. "

There - fixed it for you. That was no human.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi cpaspr,

"It's a tragedy, but the blame rests solely, squarely and completely on the piece of trash that attacted her. "

There - fixed it for you. That was no human.

Of all the beasts only the human being commits rape. Only morality and self respect prevents the act from being iniatiated. So while the act is not the act of a civilized human it is a symbol of humanity.

Sorry.

Selena

 

[Wheeler44]

An average conditioned healthy female cannot do the same with another similar weight female.

Maybe I don't know many Average people. I know women that can work most men into the ground. I know women that can fight better than most men. The woman that raised me could shoot better than any one I've ever met, I'm talkin' offhand rifle and one hand revolver, not bench rest.

The Tlingit women of S.E. Alaska would meet in the middle of an icy stream with sharpened mussel shells and cut each other until the creek ran red and whole tribes begged them to stop.

Average indeed!

If I could pick the person to be my battlefield buddy, to shoot, fight, or pack me off the field it would be a toss up between some women and some men.

Don't underestimate the power of a determined woman.

The issue with the OP's friend had much more to do with conditioning of the mind than conditioning of the body.

Wheeler44

 

[Zoogster]

bloodedsky your attempt to put words in my mouth fails. I said what I said. Human beings are unique individuals. There are however norms.
Commiting criminal predatory acts is not normal, and not defending yourself is not normal.

Maybe I don't know many Average people. I know women that can work most men into the ground. I know women that can fight better than most men. The woman that raised me could shoot better than any one I've ever met, I'm talkin' offhand rifle and one hand revolver, not bench rest.

There is exceptions to everything, human beings are unique individuals and that is why they should all be judged on thier abilities as an individual.

However there is also numerous times in recent history when the standards where actualy lowered for women.
Or equipment changed as in the case of the FBI switching from the 10mm which had previously been selected because after a lot of intense testing it was the ideal cartridge for the job (firearm related).

Why are women not in the Navy Seals or Army Rangers (or infantry)? There is hygiene reasons when deployed for long periods of time someplace remote. There is sexual tension inappropriate for the situation, all male or all female groups are better at discouraging that. Men naturaly are also more protective of women, and it has been demonstrated perform worse in combat because of it fighting alongside women.
Men also help a woman struggling far more readily than they would help a man attempting to deal with the same burden as everyone else. In society that is kind, in combat it adds unnecessary dimensions.
That would not exist with a female unit though.

However beyond all that there is physical limitations.
I said physicaly conditioned. A man conditioned by strict rigid military fitness routines with good nutrition would be far more capable than a women conditioned by the same routines and nutrition.
An average conditioned man per pound of body weight is far more capable than a women per pound of body weight even compensating for differences in weight.
Even the PT for women is often different to compensate.

Even chivalry stems from some of those differences. You know that code of conduct women are so fond of?

The Tlingit women of S.E. Alaska would meet in the middle of an icy stream with sharpened mussel shells and cut each other until the creek ran red and whole tribes begged them to stop.

Determination and capability should not be confused. You wouldn't pit one of those women against a similarly trained male of the same weight and determination, nor does the world of sports for the same reason.
There is some very capable women, but lets not be illogical.
We are different, and we are supposed to be different.

 

[Lewis68]

You are right, it's her fault for being a young pretty girl.

No, it's partly her fault for not stopping the attack when she had the chance. I never said she was wrong, bad or evil.

I was robbed at an atm machine once, I guess that was my fault too for having money in the bank.

No. As I said, sometimes victims are not at any fault. For the record I put more fault with her father.

I don't blame the victim - but I've certainly learned how to avoid becoming one. How did that happen? According to your "theory", that would be impossible.

I don't believe you never blame the victim. If a guy drove through the West Side of Chicago with a sign on his car calling Black people a bad name, and gets shot, would you not blame him? Everyone else would. Victims are to blame a lot more then then you think.

So, in that absolute statement you are saying if you suffer hysterical paralysis from the sight of that truck coming, you share the blame because of an involutary mental state.

Yes. That doesn't mean you're wrong, bad or evil. It just means you die.

What if the truck driver had a heart attack and passed out, then who's at fault.

Whoever contributed to making an event happen is at fault, regardless of the reason.

Are you going to answer my three questions? I'll settle for if you have ever been physically attacked.

Yes.

Actually, I find this disgusting. The ONLY one responsible for the attack is the attacker.

So are you going to tell your daughter it's ok to dress like a hooker and walk home every night? After all, if she gets attacked it wouldn't be her fault.

You are wrong. The young lady bears absolutely no responsibilty nor blame for the attack happening, nor for the attack continuing once she dropped the gun. She did not invite the rapist in, he invited himself. Her father gave her a gun, but no instruction in how to use it. Was it because he himself didn't know how to use it, but it was the best thing he could think of to help his daughter? None of us know, we weren't there, and we don't know any of the players.

In the end, the ONLY one responsible for your survival is you. There will always be danger. Whether it's a rapist, bear or truck. Don't assume you have no responsibility for your safety. That thinking will only create more victims.

 

[Officers'Wife]

So are you going to tell your daughter it's ok to dress like a hooker and walk home every night? After all, if she gets attacked it wouldn't be her fault.

Are you impling if a woman 'dresses like a hooker' she is asking to get raped?

 

[Officers'Wife]

In the end, the ONLY one responsible for your survival is you.

OK, not THAT we agree on!

 

[cpaspr]

In the end, the ONLY one responsible for your survival is you.

Which is not the same. You said

Yes, absolutely! They both share some of the responsibility for the attack occuring. In this case, it's the assailant's fault for doing the attacking, and the victim's fault for not doing the stopping. They are both at fault for the attack occuring, because both of their choices contributed to it happening.

Responsibility for one's survival, and responsibility for the attack from which one wishes to survive are not the same thing.
________________

Farfetched example:

Say I take swimming lessons so I can be more assured of survival if I get tossed from a whitewater raft (something some people like to do). Next, assume my last name is Getty, and someone kidnaps me for ransom, but really doesn't want to have to watch me till the money gets paid, so they take me 3 miles out to sea and toss me overboard once we're out of sight of land. If I guess right and manage to swim to shore it is because I took responsibility to learn how to swim. But the fact that I was in a situation where that swimming became necessary for survival was not of my doing at all, nor can it be implied that it was in any way my fault.

 

[rainbowbob]

Lewis wrote (and I was SO trying to ignore him):

I don't believe you never blame the victim. If a guy drove through the West Side of Chicago with a sign on his car calling Black people a bad name, and gets shot, would you not blame him? Everyone else would. Victims are to blame a lot more then then you think.

Lewis:...sigh... Lewis, Lewis, Lewis...

I was hoping your line of bs was going to just f-f-f-f fade away. Alas, you're still at it.

So now you are calling me a liar. What's the deal with you, man?

I have written repeatedly that I do not blame the victim for the actions of an assailant. Apparently you disagree. Don't presume to tell me I don't believe what I have told you I do.

I might think it the height ignorance, foolishness, and bad taste for a guy to drive through the West Side of Chicago with said sign on his car. If anyone chose to assault him - they would be to blame for their act. Who do you think would be prosecuted by the law in that case?

Are you impling if a woman 'dresses like a hooker' she is asking to get raped?

Apparently he is...that's my reading of it, anyway. And I presume he gets to be the arbiter of fasion? I'd ask Lewis to define for us what a "hooker' dresses like - but that would be inappropriate, off-thread, and asking for a lock.

Fortunately, most of us come here to exchange ideas and learn something.

Unfortunately, some of us come here to pick nits and split hairs.

 

[Lewis68]

Are you impling if a woman 'dresses like a hooker' she is asking to get raped?

No. I'm impling she's more likely to get raped. Big difference. I don't think any women is asking to get raped. BTW, I'd blame her parents more if she did get raped while doing something to increase her chances.

OK, not THAT we agree on!

Believe it or not I'm sure we agree about a lot og things.

Responsibility for one's survival, and responsibility for the attack from which one wishes to survive are not the same thing.

I believe it is the same. If you get attacked while able to stop it, but don't, you are partly responsible.

Forget it's an attacker. It could be any danger.

Farfetched example:

Say I take swimming lessons so I can be more assured of survival if I get tossed from a whitewater raft (something some people like to do). Next, assume my last name is Getty, and someone kidnaps me for ransom, but really doesn't want to have to watch me till the money gets paid, so they take me 3 miles out to sea and toss me overboard once we're out of sight of land. If I guess right and manage to swim to shore it is because I took responsibility to learn how to swim. But the fact that I was in a situation where that swimming became necessary for survival was not of my doing at all, nor can it be implied that it was in any way my fault.

I believe if someone never learns to swim, and dies of drowning, it's partly their (and/or their parents) fault. It's also your fault if you learned to swim, and survived.

I'm not saying every victim is to blame. I am saying a lot of victims are partly to blame. We should not be so PC that we cannot admit that.

 

[bogie]

If one never learns to drive, and is run over by a bus...

Guys, the crap's getting awful high in there... I'm sure most of you are just so damn much tougher than the poor girl, but that's not the concept.

Anyone can dissect a situation after it has happened.

ANYONE.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Believe it or not I'm sure we agree about a lot og things.

Five degrees is better than ninety, pin it.

I believe it is the same. If you get attacked while able to stop it, but don't, you are partly responsible.

Now you are off in la-la land again. While an attack may have two principles it is the attacker first, foremost and always responsible for the violence.

I believe if someone never learns to swim, and dies of drowning, it's partly their (and/or their parents) fault. It's also your fault if you learned to swim, and survived.

You mean to say that if my Dad chooses to swim beyond his limits and were to drown it would be partially my deceased grandfather's fault? I don't suppose you subscribe to the concept of 'age of majority' either...

I'm not saying every victim is to blame. I am saying a lot of victims are partly to blame. We should not be so PC that we cannot admit that.

No, PC would be saying we should agree to disagree. Win, lose or draw- resist or comply it is the agressor that is to blame. History shows us the Europeon Jews should have resisted the SS but that they didn't does not now and will never make them in any way shape or form responsible for the Final Solution. In that case if any outside of the Nazi Party are responsible it would be Montbatten but that's an argument for a different time and place than here. William Johnstone wrote novels with much that attitude. Those novels are escape fiction, not philosophical tomes of note.

Selena

 

[Lewis68]

So now you are calling me a liar.

No, I just think you do blame some victims, but don't realize it (or want to admit it), just like the rest of the PC crowd.

How about this one? Two guys fight over a parking spot. They both end up shooting each other and dying. Who's the victim, and who's to blame?

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi bogie,

Only mid-thigh on the pit meter so far. I've been sending 'responsibility in the world of Lewis' to my sister in law. (sociology major) She's having a wonderful time with it.

Selena

 

[Officers'Wife]

Apparently he is...that's my reading of it, anyway. And I presume he gets to be the arbiter of fasion? I'd ask Lewis to define for us what a "hooker' dresses like - but that would be inappropriate, off-thread, and asking for a lock.

I was sorely tempted to do just that but thought better of it. For the moment I'm trying to determine if this flip-flopping he does is his idea of a joke or if he really means it.

Selena

 

[Lewis68]

Officers'Wife: Two guys drag race from a stop light, they both crash into each other and die. Who's the victim, and who's to blame?

 

[rainbowbob]

No, I just think you do blame some victims, but don't realize it (or want to admit it), just like the rest of the PC crowd.

So, Lewis...Am I a liar - or just a foolish old man who doesn't know my own mind?

How about this one? Two guys fight over a parking spot. They both end up shooting each other and dying. Who's the victim, and who's to blame?

That's too easy. They are both assailants who got killed for their crimes.

If only one of them initiated the fight, he is to blame - and the other is a blamless victim who lost the fight.

Two guys drag race from a stop light, they both crash into each other and die. Who's the victim, and who's to blame?

Again...too easy. They are both to blame for thier criminal act.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Two guys drag race from a stop light, they both crash into each other and die. Who's the victim, and who's to blame?

????

That's not a question of victims it's a function of Darwin. Two people unable to adapt to their eviroment do not survive. In short- in the real world stupity is a capital crime.

Selena

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

Seriously? This is still going on?

Getting raped for dressing like a prostitute, swimming, drag racing, fighting over a parking spot?

I guess all of the mods are tucked into bed.

 

[rainbowbob]

Seriously? This is still going on?

You're right, Bazooka...I must be bored.