Unwilling to pull the trigger.

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Lewis68

Does the person with the power to stop an attack, but refuses, share some of the responsibilty for the attack?

Logical fallacy of false dilema. I haven't seen that one used in a long time. So tell me Lewis, if this person was say - Sioux indian and feels a reverent kinship with the bear would you still demand he kill his kinsman? Or if that person felt taking any life was abhorrent? Would you still require the choice? Or the more likely, the second person couldn't react without putting the victim in greater danger,possibly lethal danger, by his action?


No matter how many times you ask the answer will be the same. It depends on situation and terrain. Now, care to answer my question?

Selena
 
Question is then, would she have killed the assailant to prevent what happened to her from happening to her daughter? In nature, "mothers" can be as or more violent when called upon than the male of the species.

BTW, I have met someone who said the same thing - that it's not her place to kill another human being, that their life is not hers to take. That this applies to the perp and that the perp will take her's doesn't change that fact. Kinda like because a terrorist, will behead US civillians, doesn't make it right for us to torture terrorists. (Not my belief necessarily, but that's the general concensus.)
You must have missed what I said. She most certainly should have fired, even just protecting herself. Pulling a gun on someone that then advances and not firing is one of the most foolish things a person could do. They just escalated the situation, and then refused to follow through, putting themselves at even greater danger, and supplying the person with a firearm at the same time which could be used against them.

I was simply saying there is a natural difference in mindset, and it should be respected. There is a reason it exists, and it has served humanity well for thousands of years.
Any man or woman should still defend themselves, with lethal force if necessary.

Zoogster--

***???????????

Have you heard of the Amazons?

Have you actually spoken to a live woman yourself?

Do you know any live women yourself?

That post of yours now stands as the stupidest b***sh** I have ever read on THR. I'm assuming that any female partner of yours awakens each morning, happily dons her apron, and spends the better part of her day baking cookies and tending to domestic duties with a maniacal smile on her face all the while. One assumes that, during her lunch hour, she fantasizes about how "naturaly [sic] hesitant" she is to shoot an intruder.

First off the Amazons were a myth.
There have been many female warriors, but for a portion of the population that is over 50% of the population, I think it is fair to say they are represented by a very small percentage in combat.
Even out of those in the military, very few are placed in the roles of frontline combat. More serve in logistics or support roles.

If you cannot recognize the differences both physical and mentaly in a man and a woman without feeling like it is insulting then I don't know what to tell you.
A man or a woman should be free to pursue whatever path in life they wish. May each succeed at what they choose according to thier abilities.

They however start with differences. Physical differences, different bodies, different chemicals in the body etc
Men have lots of testosterone, around 50x more than a woman. If you put that in a pill and sell it it is called an anabolic steriod, and it makes people very irritated and aggressive. Women taking a lot of it would also start developing masculine features like facial hair and muscle tone, have problems with thier cycles, rougher skin, and various other issues along with increased libido. They would also become very irritated and aggressive.
In fact a women even starts having problems when the body fat gets near what is healthy for a man. You must only look to female body builders to find many of these issues.

Men on the other hand also have a similar body chemistry all the time, and it does not greatly vary during the month, so in a sense you can say a similar reaction to the same stimuli will result more often with men.

The much higher strength to weight ratio, low body fat, and increased aggressiveness make men better in combat, in many sports, and in other roles whether you think so or not. A healthy conditioned 200 pound man can lift another fallen 200 pound man, and proceed. An average conditioned healthy female cannot do the same with another similar weight female.
Men can carry more equipment to thier weight ratio, and in general are better suited to the role. Men are also more inclined to pursue that role, not surprisingly it is mainly men in that role.
The same existed when society was kingdoms, and they went to war endlessly with eachother.

Further a society where women were soldiers had a much lower birth rate, and subsequently would have had thier culture slowly displaced by the more successful cultures with higher birth rates. The birth rate potential of any society is directly proportional to the female population. You can kill off most of the males in war, hard work etc, and still have the same population growth. The men that still exist might have more wives, as was the case in most of ancient times, but population growth is not impacted. So even for purely logical reasons, societies that had men and women in the same roles would have fared poorly against those that didn't and eventualy been displaced after generations of warfare.

In a hunter-gatherer society men also blend better with the environment. Many animals have a very good sense of smell. Well without going into details I can assure you a man would blend better into thier surroundings in such societies, making better hunters. It is much easier to track a woman, especialy when there is a lot of physical exertion over an extended period of time.
Dogs were also used by many people in warfare...

I do not believe anyone should be limited by society based on gender to any roles. You however are being naive if you do not see clear differences which are the strengths of both men and women and compliment eachother.
Don't be illogical because women have had to overcome prejudices.
So many people tip toe around real logical discussion on such topics simply to avoid hyper sensitivity.
It is easier to just drop it than deal with the illogical hypersensitivity.

There is still natural biological differences between men and women that influance cognitive decisions as well as physical capabilities.
Both genders have strengths which are different and which compliment eachother.

As we have seen male children actualy do worse in school treated in ways that female children do better in. There is many studies which have shown this. They socialize differently, and they thrive under different conditions.
 
For the sake of clarity, I would like to add that when I said "Train", I mean that one should undertake conscience analysis and attempt to understand and to hopefully improve oneself. Not neccessarily training in the strictist of use.
 
Selena, my question is a "Yes" or "No" question. When someone refuses to answer a "Yes" or "No" question by saying, "it depends", is either trying to fool me, or their self.
 
Lewis68 said:
Does the person with the power to stop an attack, but refuses, share some of the responsibilty for the attack?
No. A person who does nothing is not responsible for the attack. That is my belief and I'll not discuss it further.

This has become way too much of a topic drift. Lewis, if you want to discuss this further please take it to a philosophical topic forum. It does not belong here.
 
Selena, my question is a "Yes" or "No" question. When someone refuses to answer a "Yes" or "No" question by saying, "it depends", is either trying to fool me, or their self.

Someone far wiser than I told me long ago that when someone demands an absolute in a variable world that person will turn out to be either a fool, a liar or a bull**** artist.
 
No. A person who does nothing is not responsible for the attack. That is my belief and I'll not discuss it further.
Ok. Fair enough.

This has become way too much of a topic drift. Lewis, if you want to discuss this further please take it to a philosophical topic forum. It does not belong here.
I disagree. I'm the only one keeping this thread ON topic. However, if a Mod tells me to go somewhere else, I will.
 
Lewis68,

Yes, absolutely! They both share some of the responsibility for the attack occuring. In this case, it's the assailant's fault for doing the attacking, and the victim's fault for not doing the stopping. They are both at fault for the attack occuring, because both of their choices contributed to it happening.

How would you define the fault you assign regarding the victim?
Legal?
Logical?
Spritual?
 
After reading the posts I think maybe I should have not shared this story.

The most disturbing was the insinuation that she brought it upon herself for not shooting him. I knew this girl twenty years ago in High School to be a friendly, caring, and consiterate person. The attack happened in 1994 and she has handled the aftermath pretty well since then. She does not belive she "brought it upon herself" or anything like that, just a very bad man did a horrible thing to her. She told me she almost did not report the attack after it happened out of shame and fear of what her family would think of her.

Also we were from a large city in Arkansas, over 80,000 at the time I belive. Here you cannot just target shoot out the back door and I do not remember any organized shooting events or shooting classes at that time. I did offer to teach her gun handling and shooting, but she does not seem very enthusiastic about it and I'm not going to pressure her.

Please remember that at the time she was a twenty four year old young woman trying to work, go to school and hopefully meet a nice guy, not unlike most of us at that age. Sometimes a personal attack upon us is what makes us think about our personal protection.

Call her a sheep if you want, but remember most of your families, friends and co-workers are sheep too. It doesn't mean they deserve to be food for the wolf.
 
Someone far wiser than I told me long ago that when someone demands an absolute in a variable world that person will turn out to be either a fool, a liar or a bull**** artist.

Funny, someone far wiser then me said if someone cannot give you a straight answer to a straight question, that person is either fooling you, or their self.
 
Hi Wideym,

I believe most of us here, I least I do, believe that unless we have looked the rapist in the eye we are in no position to say what she should have done. Some people just aren't capable of pulling the trigger on another human being. Saying she was wrong not too would be like telling the guy afraid of heights he's trash for not joining Airborne or the guy that can't swim he's responsible for a drowning because he didn't jump in and save the victim. At the end of the day in our comfortable chair in the safety of our homes it's not for us to say.

It's a tradegy, but the blame rests solely, squarely and completely on the piece of human trash that attacted her.

Selena
 
Funny, someone far wiser then me said if someone cannot give you a straight answer to a straight question, that person is either fooling you, or their self.

I asked you a straight question about dioxion. Are you trying to fool me or yourself? And you refused to answer my question about a misfired cartridge and if you had ever been attacked. You don't seem to live up to the standard you are judging me by. Why is that?
 
wideym said:
The most disturbing was the insinuation that she brought it upon herself for not shooting him.

Clearly it is not her fault, it's the fault of the attacker. She made her choice and she has had to live with the consequences. I am glad to hear that it sounds like she is doing fairly well. I certainly hope she never has to go through something like that again. No one should. A lesson to be learned for all people here though is that you need to make up your mind before things like this happen. If you are willing to be a victim that is your choice as long as you can live with yourself. I do not say that is a bad thing, look at Mohandas Gandhi. He was wiling to give his life suffering at the hands of others because he thought his beliefs were more important. I respect his courage and conviction. I disagree with his choice but that doesn't mean I think less of him. He chose a different path to achieve his goals than I would.

Anyway, I hope your friend never has to do anything like her healing process again.
 
After reading the posts I think maybe I should have not shared this story.

The most disturbing was the insinuation that she brought it upon herself for not shooting him. I knew this girl twenty years ago in High School to be a friendly, caring, and consiterate person. The attack happened in 1994 and she has handled the aftermath pretty well since then. She does not belive she "brought it upon herself" or anything like that, just a very bad man did a horrible thing to her. She told me she almost did not report the attack after it happened out of shame and fear of what her family would think of her.

Also we were from a large city in Arkansas, over 80,000 at the time I belive. Here you cannot just target shoot out the back door and I do not remember any organized shooting events or shooting classes at that time. I did offer to teach her gun handling and shooting, but she does not seem very enthusiastic about it and I'm not going to pressure her.

Please remember that at the time she was a twenty four year old young woman trying to work, go to school and hopefully meet a nice guy, not unlike most of us at that age. Sometimes a personal attack upon us is what makes us think about our personal protection.

Call her a sheep if you want, but remember most of your families, friends and co-workers are sheep too. It doesn't mean they deserve to be food for the wolf.

I want to make it clear what I mean when I say, "she bares some responsibility for the attack happening". It is the same as if a truck was heading toward me, and I refuse to move out of the way. I bare some responsiblity for getting hit. If I had a baby in the backseat, I am responsible for their live, and that includes moving out of the way from a crazy truck driver (or attacker).

We all are responsible for our (and families) lives. The problem with people that don't ever want to "blame the victim" are, they are creating more victims. Just becuase you're the victim, doesn't mean you have no fault. Sometimes the victims are not to blame at all, other times the are. But if we never blame them we'll never learn to avoid becoming one.
 
Lewis68: You are right, it's her fault for being a young pretty girl. She should have worn a burka at all times or made herself so ugly no man would look at her let alone touch her. Or the simple fact she didn't have claymores wired to the front door, three pit bulls trained to attack anything with balls, and an M60 sandbagged around her bed makes it her fault. The list goes on and on.

I was robbed at an atm machine once, I guess that was my fault too for having money in the bank.
 
Lewis wrote: But if we never blame them [the victims] we'll never learn to avoid becoming one.

I don't blame the victim - but I've certainly learned how to avoid becoming one. How did that happen? According to your "theory", that would be impossible.
 
Lewis,

It is the same as if a truck was heading toward me, and I refuse to move out of the way. I bare some responsiblity for getting hit.

So, in that absolute statement you are saying if you suffer hysterical paralysis from the sight of that truck coming, you share the blame because of an involutary mental state.

Interesting...

Are you going to answer my three questions? I'll settle for if you have ever been physically attacked.

Selena
 
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