Unisaw
Member
Boats, the P2000 has interchangeable backstraps. 
US Army looking for new pistol?
- Thread starter Slater
- Start date
- Status
rugeraddict
Member
Ruger Awarded Army Contract
Check this out:
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Corporate/News-12-23-2004.html
Check this out:
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Corporate/News-12-23-2004.html
BluesBear
member
Ridgerunner665
Member
The new Beretta PX4 Storm has what they are looking for...fully customizable grip, high capacity mags ( 9mm=17 rounds,.40=14 rounds) integral accessory rail and all tha that sorta stuff. So the next one may be a Beretta too I just hope they go with the .40 S&W version this time.
I just hope they go with the .40 S&W version this time.
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seeker_two
Member
I'm thinking we'll see some sort of polymer-framed, DAO hi-cap auto in .40S&W or .45ACP made by either H&K, Glock, or FN in their US factories. The Five-Sevens & P-90's will be strictly for SpecOps work.
No interchangeable backstraps, though. Just another part to break or lose...
No interchangeable backstraps, though. Just another part to break or lose...
Ridgerunner665
Member
I see what you mean but they are specifically looking for interchangeable backstraps...read this
See info below:
FBO DAILY ISSUE OF OCTOBER 03, 2004 FBO #1042
SOURCES SOUGHT
10 -- Future Handgun System
Notice Date
10/1/2004
Notice Type
Sources Sought
Contracting Office
US Army ARDEC, AMSTA-AR-PC, Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey 07806-5000
ZIP Code
07806-5000
Solicitation Number
W15QKN-05-X-0425
Response Due
11/1/2004
Description
The US Army at TACOM-ARDEC is seeking information about commercial, off-the- shelf, non-developmental item (NDI) pistols, which can meet the Army?s needs (with only minor modifications if required) for a future handgun system. The focus of the future handgun system (FHS) is to augment close quarters battle and security/force protection operations, and to offer significant improvements over the current handgun system. Additionally, the FHS will support the requirement for a personal defense weapon. The FHS will provide increases in terminal ballistic potential, durability, and reliability over the currently fielded M9/9x19mm and M11/9x19mm pistols. Specific features and characteristics of the FHS will include, but are not limited to, an integral accessory rail, enhanced day/night sighting capability, configurable grips (to suit the individual soldier?s need), and will permit the use of a sound suppressor when the threat/mission requires. The FHS will use munitions that are optimized for Army full-spectrum contingencies/applications. The FHS will also have a suitable, multi-configurable, holster(s) and ammunition carrier(s). Information about existing production pistols and/or pistols of this type that are currently in development and associated ammunition that offers increased terminal ballistic potential is desired. Interested parties are requested to submit a description of their product(s) along with other available information (sketches, drawings, specifications, brochures, and/or test results that describe current capability/on-going development) to: U.S. Army ARDEC, ATTN: David J. DeCandia, Contract Specialist, U.S. Army TACOM, Picatinny Center for Contracting and Commerce, AMSTA-AQ-APD, Building 10, Picatinny Arsenal, N.J. 07806-5000 EMAIL ADDRESS - [email protected]. This Market Survey is for information and planning purposes only, and does not constitute a Request for Proposal (RFP). This Market Survey is not to be construed as a commitment by the U. S. Government. If a formal solicitation is generated at a later date, a solicitation notice will be published. No award will be made as a result of this Market Survey. All information is to be submitted at no cost or obligation to the Government. The Government reserves the right to reject, in whole or in part, any private sector input as a result of this Market Survey. Respondents will not be notified of the results of this survey or results of information submitted. Please submit your responses NLT 1700 EST, 1 November 2004.
Web Link
US ARMY TACOM-Picatinny Procurement Network
(http://procnet.pica.army.mil/dbi/Do...15QKN-05-X-0425)
Record
SN00687867-W 20041003/041001212000 (fbodaily.com)
Source
FedBizOpps.gov Link to This Notice
See info below:
FBO DAILY ISSUE OF OCTOBER 03, 2004 FBO #1042
SOURCES SOUGHT
10 -- Future Handgun System
Notice Date
10/1/2004
Notice Type
Sources Sought
Contracting Office
US Army ARDEC, AMSTA-AR-PC, Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey 07806-5000
ZIP Code
07806-5000
Solicitation Number
W15QKN-05-X-0425
Response Due
11/1/2004
Description
The US Army at TACOM-ARDEC is seeking information about commercial, off-the- shelf, non-developmental item (NDI) pistols, which can meet the Army?s needs (with only minor modifications if required) for a future handgun system. The focus of the future handgun system (FHS) is to augment close quarters battle and security/force protection operations, and to offer significant improvements over the current handgun system. Additionally, the FHS will support the requirement for a personal defense weapon. The FHS will provide increases in terminal ballistic potential, durability, and reliability over the currently fielded M9/9x19mm and M11/9x19mm pistols. Specific features and characteristics of the FHS will include, but are not limited to, an integral accessory rail, enhanced day/night sighting capability, configurable grips (to suit the individual soldier?s need), and will permit the use of a sound suppressor when the threat/mission requires. The FHS will use munitions that are optimized for Army full-spectrum contingencies/applications. The FHS will also have a suitable, multi-configurable, holster(s) and ammunition carrier(s). Information about existing production pistols and/or pistols of this type that are currently in development and associated ammunition that offers increased terminal ballistic potential is desired. Interested parties are requested to submit a description of their product(s) along with other available information (sketches, drawings, specifications, brochures, and/or test results that describe current capability/on-going development) to: U.S. Army ARDEC, ATTN: David J. DeCandia, Contract Specialist, U.S. Army TACOM, Picatinny Center for Contracting and Commerce, AMSTA-AQ-APD, Building 10, Picatinny Arsenal, N.J. 07806-5000 EMAIL ADDRESS - [email protected]. This Market Survey is for information and planning purposes only, and does not constitute a Request for Proposal (RFP). This Market Survey is not to be construed as a commitment by the U. S. Government. If a formal solicitation is generated at a later date, a solicitation notice will be published. No award will be made as a result of this Market Survey. All information is to be submitted at no cost or obligation to the Government. The Government reserves the right to reject, in whole or in part, any private sector input as a result of this Market Survey. Respondents will not be notified of the results of this survey or results of information submitted. Please submit your responses NLT 1700 EST, 1 November 2004.
Web Link
US ARMY TACOM-Picatinny Procurement Network
(http://procnet.pica.army.mil/dbi/Do...15QKN-05-X-0425)
Record
SN00687867-W 20041003/041001212000 (fbodaily.com)
Source
FedBizOpps.gov Link to This Notice
seeker_two
Member
And Rugers aren't the only pistols being bought for the Iraqis. I believe Springfield, SIG, H&K, & a few other manufacturers are selling pistols to the new Iraqi security forces, police, etc.
Methinks this is a "backdoor" testing for the next US service pistol. If the Iraqis can't break it, jam it, or mangle it; then it'll be tough enough for our troops...
Cosmoline
Member
They ought to make a real shift and go with a 10mm pistol. Serious gravitas, but it'll never happen.
The Sig Pro has earned an enviable reputation and proven track record of reliable performance in the hands of law enforcement professionals. In December of 2004 the U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armaments Command at the Rock Island Arsenal awarded SIGARMS a contract for 5,000 of SIG SAUER SP2022 pistols chambered in 9mm and once again proved that SIGARMS is the name to turn to When It Counts.
http://www.sigarms.com/products/sigpro-models.asp?product_id=235
http://www.sigarms.com/products/sigpro-models.asp?product_id=235
It'll be the Smith S99 in .45.
The problem with both 9mm and .40 is the terminal performance of FMJ ammo, the only kind the Army can use due to Convention rules. The .45 solves that problem. It's a proven round. It is cheap and available. It wont break guns apart because its a low pressure cartridge.
It will be the Model S99 because they will want a polymer gun for weight issues and because its cool. It'll be the Smith because Smith is American. It's located in Massachuessets so even Ted Kennedy will like it. And I own stock in the company.
The problem with both 9mm and .40 is the terminal performance of FMJ ammo, the only kind the Army can use due to Convention rules. The .45 solves that problem. It's a proven round. It is cheap and available. It wont break guns apart because its a low pressure cartridge.
It will be the Model S99 because they will want a polymer gun for weight issues and because its cool. It'll be the Smith because Smith is American. It's located in Massachuessets so even Ted Kennedy will like it. And I own stock in the company.
BrokenArrow
Member
To clear some things up...
The DHS contract was split between SIG and HK. Agencies under DHS can opt for either. The USCG bought 12,000 P229Rs in .40 caliber. Pistols under the DHS deal are the HK P2000, P2000SK, and USPc (all w LEM) in 9/40/357. The SIGs are the P239DAO, P226R-DAK, and P229R-DAK in 9/40. DHS already has options on SIG 357s through previous deals w subordinate agencies. Agencies under DHS might buy all SIGs, all HKs, mix it up, or none at all. DHS has previous deals in place w Glock too, and CBP (Customs and Border Protection) has been issuing Glock 9s since Oct of 2003, still is AFAIK.
The Army Ruger/SIG deal is a whole 'nother enchilada... they just wanted 10,000 pistols cheap and fast. Emphasis on the cheap and fast since no testing was done and they split it 5,000 each to get em to Iraq in a hurry. The SIG they got was the sig pro w Picatinny rail.
Why look for a new gun now? Cuzz at the normal usage rate of 200 rnds per year, and a contract specified service life of 5000 rounds, the M9 is about due (5000/200=25, 1985+25=2010). The local base has on avg over 30,000 rounds through it's M9s for example. We may have plenty in storage, but we had plenty of 1911s in storage in 1985 too...
The Army's "market survey" last Oct 04 for the Future Handgun System (FHS) makes it clear they would like a one gun fits all solution as much as possible:
"The focus of the future handgun system (FHS) is to augment close quarters battle and security/force protection operations, and to offer significant improvements over the current handgun system. Additionally, the FHS will support the requirement for a personal defense weapon."
Lottsa luck.
The draft specs for the SOF combat pistol head that off at the pass by asking for a 45 ACP w a "consistent trigger pull" up front. As of Jan 05 they also want a "modular action mechanism that allows reconfiguration at the unit level w/o modification to the weapon's major assemblies" and a trigger that will "reset after being released, even if the pistol is not fired" and "the operator shall be capable of pulling the trigger, w/o moving the firing grip" (both bad news for Glock and SA/HS/XD type guns). They want a service life of at least 20,000 rounds this time and a MRBS of 2000 - 5000, 1000 w suppressor attached... yada, yada, yada...I wish they had thrown self-cleaning in there too.
The FN FNP and HK USP/P2000 pistols are closest to meeting all the specs. FN already has scored points w the SCAR (special forces combat assault rifle) contract, a FNC carbine in regular (5.56) and extra crispy (7.62). FN needs to whip up a FNP45 IMO.
I've shot the USP/P2000 and FNP, like the FNP best. YMMV.
Now tell me why the M1911A1, M14, and M3A1 wouldn't work as well today as they ever did, maybe even better than some of the new stuff?
The DHS contract was split between SIG and HK. Agencies under DHS can opt for either. The USCG bought 12,000 P229Rs in .40 caliber. Pistols under the DHS deal are the HK P2000, P2000SK, and USPc (all w LEM) in 9/40/357. The SIGs are the P239DAO, P226R-DAK, and P229R-DAK in 9/40. DHS already has options on SIG 357s through previous deals w subordinate agencies. Agencies under DHS might buy all SIGs, all HKs, mix it up, or none at all. DHS has previous deals in place w Glock too, and CBP (Customs and Border Protection) has been issuing Glock 9s since Oct of 2003, still is AFAIK.
The Army Ruger/SIG deal is a whole 'nother enchilada... they just wanted 10,000 pistols cheap and fast. Emphasis on the cheap and fast since no testing was done and they split it 5,000 each to get em to Iraq in a hurry. The SIG they got was the sig pro w Picatinny rail.
Why look for a new gun now? Cuzz at the normal usage rate of 200 rnds per year, and a contract specified service life of 5000 rounds, the M9 is about due (5000/200=25, 1985+25=2010). The local base has on avg over 30,000 rounds through it's M9s for example. We may have plenty in storage, but we had plenty of 1911s in storage in 1985 too...
The Army's "market survey" last Oct 04 for the Future Handgun System (FHS) makes it clear they would like a one gun fits all solution as much as possible:
"The focus of the future handgun system (FHS) is to augment close quarters battle and security/force protection operations, and to offer significant improvements over the current handgun system. Additionally, the FHS will support the requirement for a personal defense weapon."
Lottsa luck.
The draft specs for the SOF combat pistol head that off at the pass by asking for a 45 ACP w a "consistent trigger pull" up front. As of Jan 05 they also want a "modular action mechanism that allows reconfiguration at the unit level w/o modification to the weapon's major assemblies" and a trigger that will "reset after being released, even if the pistol is not fired" and "the operator shall be capable of pulling the trigger, w/o moving the firing grip" (both bad news for Glock and SA/HS/XD type guns). They want a service life of at least 20,000 rounds this time and a MRBS of 2000 - 5000, 1000 w suppressor attached... yada, yada, yada...I wish they had thrown self-cleaning in there too.
The FN FNP and HK USP/P2000 pistols are closest to meeting all the specs. FN already has scored points w the SCAR (special forces combat assault rifle) contract, a FNC carbine in regular (5.56) and extra crispy (7.62). FN needs to whip up a FNP45 IMO.
I've shot the USP/P2000 and FNP, like the FNP best. YMMV.
Now tell me why the M1911A1, M14, and M3A1 wouldn't work as well today as they ever did, maybe even better than some of the new stuff?
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I have to get this off my chest its been bugging me for a long time....
Begin rant.
What is with it and all you old fogies and your wish of the Army going back to the weapons of WW2?1
The M14 is a modified M1 Grand. Modified for the better but sitll thats all it is. The M1 Grand was designed for a style of fighting we have not had since WW1. Hit a target at 500+ yards! Modern combat does not work that way. You are better off with a lower power round and a lighter, easier handle rifle. They stopped using them in Vietnam for a reason, and it was cause everybody over the rank of Lt. was stupid.
Is the .223 round perfect? No! But I guaranty the .308 round is not the perfect round either.
As for the colt .45, yes it is a great gun and one of my favorites but there are better weapons that fill the pistol role for the modern army. Most people come into the armed services with little or no experience with firearms. To expect them to be crack shots with a pistol in there limited training time is absurd. Pistols are self defense guns and that is it. They are for last line of defense, I am out of ammo, my rifle is broke situations. A larger clip capacity is need then 7+1 in the tube.
As for an M3A1 sub gun. Yea its cool but are you honesty saying that it is a better gun the HK UMP (.45 cal)? The M3A1 was built to give cheap SMG to the solders, its build on the same principles as a Sten MK3.
Technology has changed in 60 years people there is no reason guns the army uses should not either.
Rant end.
Begin rant.
What is with it and all you old fogies and your wish of the Army going back to the weapons of WW2?1
The M14 is a modified M1 Grand. Modified for the better but sitll thats all it is. The M1 Grand was designed for a style of fighting we have not had since WW1. Hit a target at 500+ yards! Modern combat does not work that way. You are better off with a lower power round and a lighter, easier handle rifle. They stopped using them in Vietnam for a reason, and it was cause everybody over the rank of Lt. was stupid.
Is the .223 round perfect? No! But I guaranty the .308 round is not the perfect round either.
As for the colt .45, yes it is a great gun and one of my favorites but there are better weapons that fill the pistol role for the modern army. Most people come into the armed services with little or no experience with firearms. To expect them to be crack shots with a pistol in there limited training time is absurd. Pistols are self defense guns and that is it. They are for last line of defense, I am out of ammo, my rifle is broke situations. A larger clip capacity is need then 7+1 in the tube.
As for an M3A1 sub gun. Yea its cool but are you honesty saying that it is a better gun the HK UMP (.45 cal)? The M3A1 was built to give cheap SMG to the solders, its build on the same principles as a Sten MK3.
Technology has changed in 60 years people there is no reason guns the army uses should not either.
Rant end.
BrokenArrow
Member
I did say some of the new stuff.
I know what ya mean, and I'm all for progress when it's really progress. The SCAR/SOFCP and XM8/FHS may indeed be better than the M14/M1911A1; it will be hard enough to be as good IMO. Time will tell.
What's best for GI to everybody most of the time may not be best for the best of the rest the rest of the time? The new FNP9 may be better here, but the old M1911A1 still better there...
Some of the old stuff still works pretty good when it comes to reliability in the hands of real troops in real conditions, as opposed to testing. They haven't dug thousands of old guns out of storage, or bought new versions of old guns to give to some of the best cuzz they are feelin' nostalgic; they did it cuzz they work, and yes, in some cases, do work better than the new stuff.
I know what ya mean, and I'm all for progress when it's really progress. The SCAR/SOFCP and XM8/FHS may indeed be better than the M14/M1911A1; it will be hard enough to be as good IMO. Time will tell.
What's best for GI to everybody most of the time may not be best for the best of the rest the rest of the time? The new FNP9 may be better here, but the old M1911A1 still better there...
Some of the old stuff still works pretty good when it comes to reliability in the hands of real troops in real conditions, as opposed to testing. They haven't dug thousands of old guns out of storage, or bought new versions of old guns to give to some of the best cuzz they are feelin' nostalgic; they did it cuzz they work, and yes, in some cases, do work better than the new stuff.
I would like to see a gas operated rotating bolt .50 HMG with an internal buffer.
Of course I would also like to own and shoot one.
Don't see any of that happening.
I would really like to see a new emphasis on weapons training in all branches of the US military. It would be nice if the average support troop actually knew what to do with a rifle or pistol.
In WW2 and Korea bakers and cooks were put directly into combat as replacement infantry in the more desperate battles.
And since the concept of "lines of battle" and "the front line" went out in WW1 it would be nice if most folks wearing a uniform had the skills and tools to effectively defend themselves.
That situation has been around for almost 90 years and I do not see it changing either.
Of course I would also like to own and shoot one.
Don't see any of that happening.
I would really like to see a new emphasis on weapons training in all branches of the US military. It would be nice if the average support troop actually knew what to do with a rifle or pistol.
In WW2 and Korea bakers and cooks were put directly into combat as replacement infantry in the more desperate battles.
And since the concept of "lines of battle" and "the front line" went out in WW1 it would be nice if most folks wearing a uniform had the skills and tools to effectively defend themselves.
That situation has been around for almost 90 years and I do not see it changing either.
BrokenArrow
Member
Say they bought 350,000 pistols at about $200 each, that's a $70 million contract, but it's a one time expense.
To increase the weapons training time all troops get would cost way more than that since it's a repeatable expense that never goes away.
I never got all the training I thought I needed in that area, made up for it on my own as much as I could, tried to pass it on to my troops as much as I could too.
To increase the weapons training time all troops get would cost way more than that since it's a repeatable expense that never goes away.
I never got all the training I thought I needed in that area, made up for it on my own as much as I could, tried to pass it on to my troops as much as I could too.
muleskinner
Member
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2004
- Messages
- 7
New Std Military Pistol?
I AGREE WITH COSMOLINE and others here...
Pick a decent man-stopping and man-killing caliber. Any pistol isn't quite enough so go for the most powerful. Since 44mags and other revolvers are not likely to be picked, then the obvious choice is....
10mm -- and not 10mm-lite either, but full-house loads (750+fpe)!
Some history
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/guns_and_weapons/10mmpist.html
Factory 10mm ARE available that surpass even .357 magnums.
Colt Delta Elites are real 1911's
We have to select pistols that can handle such loads.
http://www.texas-ammo.com/ammun.htm#10mm
photo of one at
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2100/2186.htm
Dan Wesson makes a new one: RZ-10 Razorback
http://www.danwessonfirearms.com/products/catalog/1/4
and more info
http://www.bren-ten.com/id41.html
Hmmm, here is a THR archived thread
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-1770.html
HSmith wrote: "The 10mm is a serious high energy cartridge, and the platform is about as good as an autoloading pistol can get."
Here is a Glock forum review of other makes
Rank these 10mm pistols
And it is great for assault rifles (assault pistols?)
such as the 10mm Mp5
http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Weapons/10mmAR.html
No more wimpy ammo that gets our guys killed because
it fails to kill the other guys too many times at the wrong times.
I AGREE WITH COSMOLINE and others here...
Pick a decent man-stopping and man-killing caliber. Any pistol isn't quite enough so go for the most powerful. Since 44mags and other revolvers are not likely to be picked, then the obvious choice is....
10mm -- and not 10mm-lite either, but full-house loads (750+fpe)!
Some history
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/guns_and_weapons/10mmpist.html
Factory 10mm ARE available that surpass even .357 magnums.
Colt Delta Elites are real 1911's
We have to select pistols that can handle such loads.
http://www.texas-ammo.com/ammun.htm#10mm
photo of one at
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2100/2186.htm
Dan Wesson makes a new one: RZ-10 Razorback
http://www.danwessonfirearms.com/products/catalog/1/4
and more info
http://www.bren-ten.com/id41.html
Hmmm, here is a THR archived thread
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-1770.html
HSmith wrote: "The 10mm is a serious high energy cartridge, and the platform is about as good as an autoloading pistol can get."
Here is a Glock forum review of other makes
Rank these 10mm pistols
And it is great for assault rifles (assault pistols?)
such as the 10mm Mp5
http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Weapons/10mmAR.html
No more wimpy ammo that gets our guys killed because
it fails to kill the other guys too many times at the wrong times.
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BrokenArrow
Member
The military might not want a full power 10mm for the same reasons the FBI backed off on it? Could lead them to the 40 for the same reasons?
If bigger is better, then there is the .50 Action Express and the .50 GI? Ya can even get the latter in a 1911!
For all those folks who said they carried a .45 cuzz they didn't make a .46...
If bigger is better, then there is the .50 Action Express and the .50 GI? Ya can even get the latter in a 1911!
For all those folks who said they carried a .45 cuzz they didn't make a .46...
muleskinner
Member
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2004
- Messages
- 7
BrokenArrow,
The military backed off from the .308 for among the same reasons the FBI backed off from the 10mm -- their girls and little guys (both American and our "Allies") didn't want to learn how to handle the heavier, more effective rounds.
They got the .223 which is now being admitted that it is not enough.
They got the 40short & weak which police depts admit is not enough.
Maybe they could download some 10mm ammo just for the wimps but NOT make it 40S&W since all the ammo has to be interchangeable with all the 10mm weapons.
The military backed off from the .308 for among the same reasons the FBI backed off from the 10mm -- their girls and little guys (both American and our "Allies") didn't want to learn how to handle the heavier, more effective rounds.
They got the .223 which is now being admitted that it is not enough.
They got the 40short & weak which police depts admit is not enough.
Maybe they could download some 10mm ammo just for the wimps but NOT make it 40S&W since all the ammo has to be interchangeable with all the 10mm weapons.
cuate
Member
US Army looking for
Maybe they should consult Jeff Cooper, to late to ask Alvin York who the 1911 served to "whomp" six Germans. We aren't talking about the old issue, rattley
worn out .45s we were issured but the later clones with the goodies. Knew a once deputy that was being overpowered in a Port Oconner, TX beer jount, stuck a 1911 to a hind end that wasn't his and brought peace and dignity to the scene without fatality to the creep.
Maybe they should consult Jeff Cooper, to late to ask Alvin York who the 1911 served to "whomp" six Germans. We aren't talking about the old issue, rattley
worn out .45s we were issured but the later clones with the goodies. Knew a once deputy that was being overpowered in a Port Oconner, TX beer jount, stuck a 1911 to a hind end that wasn't his and brought peace and dignity to the scene without fatality to the creep.
mons meg
Member
Everyone does realize, of course, that different branches of the military test all kinds of stuff all the time as "possible replacement for weapon system X".
Heck, the USMC is testing, (according to the USMC Warfighting Lab) among other things, the MP7 and P90 as replacements for the M9. You think it's likely they'll go with either of those weapons as a mass replacement for a 9mm pistol? But yeah, it woud be cool if everyone had a PDW class subgun...
Heck, the USMC is testing, (according to the USMC Warfighting Lab) among other things, the MP7 and P90 as replacements for the M9. You think it's likely they'll go with either of those weapons as a mass replacement for a 9mm pistol? But yeah, it woud be cool if everyone had a PDW class subgun...
muleskinner
Member
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2004
- Messages
- 7
Small or Large Caliber?
The interest in small caliber MP7 (PDW) raises questions.
Supposedly it can penetrate body armor. So can .223.
But can it stop an opponent determined to kill you?!?!?
Iraq and other experience has shown the .223 is inadequate.
Would the same be found to be the case with the MP7?
Am I a stuck-in-a-rut throwback for considering 750fpe 10mm
or .357 or other large caliber and/or very hard-hitting calibers?
Would the "needle-gun" approach be an effective man-stopper?
Methinks not. But then I may be just an old dog.
The interest in small caliber MP7 (PDW) raises questions.
Supposedly it can penetrate body armor. So can .223.
But can it stop an opponent determined to kill you?!?!?
Iraq and other experience has shown the .223 is inadequate.
Would the same be found to be the case with the MP7?
Am I a stuck-in-a-rut throwback for considering 750fpe 10mm
or .357 or other large caliber and/or very hard-hitting calibers?
Would the "needle-gun" approach be an effective man-stopper?
Methinks not. But then I may be just an old dog.
- Status