US cop quits 'too risky' UK force due to poor training and lack of equipment.

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jsalcedo

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Anyone ever watch McCloud?

http://imdb.com/title/tt0065317/combined


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1903309,00.html


US cop quits 'too risky' UK force
David Leppard



A TEXAN patrol officer who became the first foreigner to join the British police is to resign after three years because he says policing is too dangerous here compared with America.
Ben Johnson, a 6ft 4in former paratrooper nicknamed Slim, has written to his chief constable asking to carry a Glock 17 handgun on his routine beat in Reading.



He said officers are dying unnecessarily because they are less well equipped and trained to protect themselves and the public than their American counterparts.

“The risks required to be taken by unarmed and poorly trained British police are too great for me to continue being a police officer and I will be resigning my commission in a few weeks,” said Johnson.

“I am tired of my colleagues dying when, if they were better trained and equipped, they would have a fighting chance of survival.”

Johnson’s decision was prompted by the murder of PC Sharon Beshenivsky, a mother of three children and two step-children, who was shot during a robbery in Bradford last month. He said her death demonstrated the lack of training and equipment given to British police.

“Beshenivsky did the one thing that officers in America are trained not to do. She walked up to the front entrance of a business during an alarm call. If the incident had happened in America, she would never have done that. She would almost certainly have been alive today.”

Last week Johnson wrote to Sara Thornton, acting chief constable of Thames Valley police, asking to be armed on patrol. “If the chief authorises me to carry a pistol, then I will not be resigning,” he said. “But that is an impossibility. I now have the choice of continuing in a dangerous job, ill-trained and ill-equipped, or leaving the profession I have loved.”

Johnson, 34, served as a paratrooper in the American army before joining the police department in Garland, a Dallas suburb. Like other officers he carried a Glock 22 pistol as a sidearm, supported by a 12-bore shotgun and an AR15 semi-automatic rifle in his patrol car. In America he routinely confronted armed criminals and received 10 commendations for his bravery.

He came to Britain three years ago to live with his fiancée Louise, an IT consultant. He was able to join the Thames Valley force because of a change in regulations that lifted the bar on foreigners.

The couple are now married and Johnson has taken a short career break to look after their 18-month-old daughter Catherine. He said fatherhood had changed his perspective. “It would not be fair [to my family] to continue in a job that is being made more dangerous by a refusal to modernise,” he said.

It was an incident earlier this year that first caused Johnson to consider handing in his warrant card. He was on plainclothes CID duty when he was called to the Royal Berkshire hospital in Reading to interview a victim of domestic violence.

A woman had jumped out of a first-floor window to escape her violent boyfriend, paralysing her from the waist down. The boyfriend, a member of a drug gang, was already wanted by the police for attempted murder, after shooting someone in the back of the head in London.

Johnson and other plainclothes officers who went to the hospital were alerted that the boyfriend had telephoned to say he was coming to see her. They also received a warning that he might be armed.

According to Johnson, he wanted to arrest the man when he arrived, but was ordered by a senior officer not to do so because of the risk. The suspect escaped and it was two days before he was arrested.


“That was the first time I’d ever let someone wanted for attempted murder simply walk away from me,” said Johnson. “It went against everything I knew. I thought it was my duty to arrest these people.
“It seems that in Britain ordinary officers are instructed not to engage with dangerous criminals. But if police officers can’t engage with them, who can?” He is critical of Charles Clarke, the home secretary, who says he can see “no evidence” that arming officers would reduce the number of police fatalities. “With all respect to the home secretary, he has never answered a 999 call,” said Johnson.



Of Beshenivsky’s murder, he said: “I have been in exactly those situations on patrol in America and I have managed to arrest and disarm offenders without being harmed.”

In America, officers spend weeks learning how to cope with armed incidents. But in Britain, Johnson said, he was never shown how to handle or unload a firearm or told how to respond to an armed robbery. “Officers spend more time learning about how to process paperwork than dealing with violent situations. We are trained more like social workers than police officers.

“The training I received in Britain in dealing with armed incidents was virtually non-existent. It consisted of a 30-minute lecture from a firearms officer who said: ‘If you see the business end of a gun or anyone holding a gun . . . turn, run and get away as quickly as possible’.”

This apparent complacency was reinforced at his swearing-in ceremony when a senior Thames Valley officer told him and colleagues that they would not face the sort of dangerous incidents portrayed on The Bill, the television programme.

“I was surprised that he said we wouldn’t come into harm’s way. This went against everything I had learnt during my career,” said Johnson.

By contrast, the chief officer of Garland police department tells new recruits that it is his task to ensure they are prepared and equipped to face any threat.

Johnson accepted that America is more violent than Britain, with a gun culture contributing to a murder rate 17 times higher than here. He recognised, too, that many more police officers are murdered in America — 57 last year compared with just one here — proportionately about 11 times as many.

But he maintained that British police are far more exposed to danger when confronted with armed offenders than their US counterparts. He said he did not want all police armed — just the “first responders”, officers who, like Beshenivsky, are first on the scene of crimes. He believed this would mean arming about half of Britain’s 140,000 police.

A spokesman for Thames Valley police said: “PC Johnson is currently on a career break. These are his personal views and he did not discuss them with anyone before going to the press.”
 
I don't think that the cops in the UK should have one single weapon that is not allowed to British Subjects.

Unemployment in Britain is lower than here. Let the cops find new jobs if they don't like it -- hell, give them training and placement assistance. Let the Brits live without the police force protecting them. It's what they (the majority, anyway) deserve.

Things might improve in the UK, but only when they hit rock bottom.
 
You would think it would be easy to arm them with shotguns or lever actions. That might be easier to train with than pistols and harder to conceal. If they don't want cops to carry all the time, rifles or shotguns might be a better choice and more useful.

This article makes me wonder how much violent crime or organized crime is ignored or avoided by the unarmed police. How many criminals like that one guy mentioned are on the streets because they couldn't be safely arrested.
 
Did anybody else catch the comments about the US's "gun culture"?

It seems our friends across the pond (or at least, their media), can't keep from mentioning that phrase whenever the subject comes up. They think it innoculates them from having to deal with the real facts: their police are dying and criminals remaining at large because the police are not given the tools necessary to do the job. If you want the people to disarm because "the police will protect you," you had better be sure the police are able to do so.

I am estimating that it won't be long before their murder rates match ours. Maybe not among police; they are told to turn and run. The crooks won't always let them go, however. Then, it will be the cops running from the crooks! How screwed up is that?
 
I dont agree that the Bradford WPC who was shot recently just walked up to the door - its believed from the Press reports and the published images from the scene that she was shot getting out of the car, which had stopped in the middle of the roadway more than a few yards from the scene of the robbery.

I also strongly doubt that the officers at that domestic violence call he mentioned just did nothing, and allowed someone wanted for attempted murder and who had caused his girlfriend to jump from a first floor window and injure herself so seriously that she was paralyzed, just to waltz in and speak with her.

As for:

“I am tired of my colleagues dying when, if they were better trained and equipped, they would have a fighting chance of survival.”

Thats just poetic licence of the worst kind. The last fatal shooting of a Police officer was in December 2002; this is hardly the Russian Front. I also think there is a cultural thing here - he complains that a senior officer said that people wouldnt face the same incidents that occur in "The Bill" (a Police drama on ITV) - as anyone who has watched it recently would know "The Bill" is massively soapified and its rare that a week goes by without an officer on the team or in the CID being shot/stabbed/burnt alive/raped/accused of child abuse/has a life threatening experience/killed by a serial killer. Life isnt as bad in Falluja as it is in Sun Hill (where the show is set). Someone from the UK might have understood such a comment; this chap appears not to have.

Finally he is spot on about training and paperwork. Unbelievably enough, in my area we have just started a month and a bit of completing daily activity analysis forms so that the Met can determine if we are doing too much paperwork. As it happens I happen to think we will all be armed sooner rather than later - a widespread suicide bombing campaign, or shootings with the same motivation, or a spate of or a lot of Police shot at the same time is all it will take.
 
jsalcedo said:
Like other officers he carried a Glock 22 pistol as a sidearm, supported by a 12-bore shotgun and an AR15 semi-automatic rifle in his patrol car.

A 12-bore shotgun? :what: :uhoh: :p
 
"Bore" equals "gauge" when you translate from English to ummm, American. :D

agri,

You really think there's enough public or political sentiment to push things that far in that short of time?

On one of the other threads with a link to British (purported anyway) officers posting they seemed still pretty strongly against it. I was kind of dismayed by the "I wouldn't trust myself or others" tone from some of them but, as you've said, I figure that's mostly from lack of familiarity with the tool, not an indictment of the persons.
 
lol while cops in UK run away from criminals, armed citizens in USA stop violent felonies-in-progress

oh man this is some comedy :neener:
 
The remarkable part isn't that some unarmed cops don't engage but rather that most DO.

Take on a violent felon while packing? Sure, I'm in.

Take on the same guy with just a truncheon and strong language? That might have me pausing to consider my options.

Keep in mind, these guys (Bobbys) aren't cowards, whatever their beliefs on gun rights. Also keep in mind that many of the ones who want to be armed also believe that their law-abiding citizens should be as well.

-rant off-

(poor dental hygiene remains an open target :evil: )
 
I wonder if the "17 times" figure they came up with is:

- Total murders, not per-capita.

- The old Home Office trick of only recording U.K. murder convictions as "murder", conveniently leaving out all the plea bargains rearing it's ugly head again... (U.S. stats count all "wrongful death" as murder, leaving judicial outcomes out of it.)

(Anyway, I leave our Brit, Scot, and Welsh bretheren who "get it" out of my next comment. They fight the good fight, suffering indignities I don't think I could.)

For the sake of argument, let's accept the "17 times" figure at face value. I wonder if it's occured to anyone if that also means an American crime victim is also 17 time more likely to posess a spine and that means a higher percentage of criminals have to shoot thier victims to get thier way?
 
I've watched a British "Cops-eque" type show.

They seem very similar to American Police officers except there is little or no gun pointing, pulling, shooting etc...

They were more polite than the American version but other than that they
seemed committed to doing their jobs.

whatever their beliefs on gun rights. Also keep in mind that many of the ones who want to be armed also believe that their law-abiding citizens should be as well.

I need more convincing.
 
carebear said:
agri,

You really think there's enough public or political sentiment to push things that far in that short of time?

I would say Ag is right. There has been a debate as a result of this recent shooting that has largely dropped from the public consciousness, after all as Ag says the preceding murder of a British police officer was two years ago. A couple in one go might push the debate on a bit though. Three or four, who knows.
 
I take this opportunity of emphasizing that there are no problems in the British police force. Absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there are a lot of problems. More than we are prepared to admit.

evil.jpg

But necrophilia is right out!
 
AJ Dual said:
I wonder if the "17 times" figure they came up with is:

- Total murders, not per-capita..

The US murder rate is roughly 3.5 times that of the UK (roughly 1.7 adjusted upwards by 15% and divided by 5.7). Probably the reporter confused gunmurder rate with murder rate.
 
I don't think that the cops in the UK should have one single weapon that is not allowed to British Subjects.
Nope. No matter how they may think of themselves, LEOs are simply civilians with neat hats and ticket books.

We all know that odds are very much against an officer actually being there to defend a citizen during any given emergency. I can see no more reason to arm an LEO than any other citizen. What's good for the masses is good for the police.
-
 
With all due respect to agricola, how would a british police officer know the difference between being an american police officer and a american social worker? I'm sure a maintenance man could tell you 30 differences between himself and a janitor if you asked. Even small degrees of difference seem large if you look closely enough.

I imagine police work must be a lot easier without American style criminal procedures to coddle the accused. I also imagine that having a populace that is obedient and tolerant of an intrusive government goes a long way towards ensuring peace.
 
He came to Britain three years ago to live with his fiancée Louise, an IT consultant.
So he moved to the UK to be with a woman? :scrutiny:

Bad reason #562 for giving up your liberties.
 
I'm sure a maintenance man could tell you 30 differences between himself and a janitor if you asked.
Be careful beerslurpy. You're close to going someplace I think you might not want to go.

:cool:
-
 
After reading the description of the show "The Bill", I recommend the "Thin Blue Line" as a more accurate description of British police.:D
 
I sort of expect this situation to resolve itself soon. I think that in the not too distant future, some Islamic militant group will have the bright idea to kill some of those nice juicy un-armed targets (British police), either as a stand-alone operation or as part of something larger.

After that, the rush to arm British police will be breathtaking.
 
I hope nobody believes cop shows bear any resemblance to real policing.
One think from 'The Bill' that a posting to Sun Hill is like wearing a red shirt on the Starship Enterprise
 
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