USA SIGs quality not as good as in the past?

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I can not speak about the quality of the USA manufactured or assembled SIG Sauer pistols since I do not have first hand experience with them, but I can give first hand comments for the European made SIG Sauer pistols as a years of Eckernförde made SIG Sauers user / shooter.

The quality and attention to the detail in the SIG Sauer pistols have been decreasing continuously especially after the year of 2000 since when the SIG is separated completely from small arms division. The firms manufacturing the SIG Sauer pistols are taken to the hands of a group of private investors who do not care about anything but decreasing costs and increasing profit margins. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you can save your traditional quality level, but unfortunately it is not likely the way it is.

My first SIG Sauer pistol was a West German P226. Even after 5000 rounds of 9x19 mm NATO ammo, the frame rails were just like new, not even a spot of chipping. The decocking lever never chipped the frame since the notch at the very rear of it was perfectly made to prevent the excesive movement of it. The locking block was sitting rock solid in the frame without any movement. The firing pin safety block was sitting in its place with its exact dimensions without protruding downwards at the right side of it. All the feeding ramps I have seen were cut symmetricaly. etc, etc...And all the P series pistols I have seen manufactured before the year 2000 was up the standards I have been excpecting from SIG Sauer, rock solid, reliable, dead on accurate.

I have never seen a locking block fluctuating in the frame before the year of 2000, but after then, almost at least half of the locking blocks are fluctuating in the frame, especially when they are pressed at the feeding ramp area, causing frame chippings during firing. All the decocking levers are chipping the frame since the notch at the rear of them is not cut deeply enogh to prevent the excesive movement of them. Most of the feeding ramps on the barrels are not cut symmetricaly as it was used to be. Most of the firing pin blocks on the stamped steel slides are protruding downwards at the very right side causing frame rail chipping. And for the MIM story, SIG Sauer have been using stamped, cast and MIM parts for over the years, but MIM parts from third world countries to cut the costs came after the year 2000.

When a part is not up to its exact standard dimensions, this may just be a cosmetic issue for someone as long as it does not disturb the function of the pistol. There are much more cheaper pistols on the market that fits the description above. But when SIG Sauer asks a premium price for their pistols, I have the right to ask for a premiumgrade pistol manufactured with premium grade parts and premium level of workmanship. Asking premium level of prices for the pistols which are not up to these standards and making money by exploiting brand loyalty by using the past track record of a firm is just cheating the customers and enthusiasts.

Best.
 
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"Many of the complaints about newer SIGs have nothing to do with quality and everything to do with aesthetics."

Many are about aesthetics. The other half of the complaints are about quality.


________

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I think the P238's problem is that they copied someone elses design,

"Yeah it's called the design of the 1911 model."

The P238 is not a 1911 model. The 1911 has a 5-inch barrel. It's not even a 1911 Commander model. Sig copied another modified design that didn't work too well for the last folks that tried to make it work. What were they thinking? Oh right, that a lot of people wouldn't know that.
 
I own some of each. Stamped slide, milled slide, W. German, German, half and half, American made. My personal experience has been that they all shoot great and are reliable. I tend to think that SIG's new management push for a zillion models may have had an effect on QC but my main gripe with the new models are the beavertails - so it's a cosmetic thing with me.

I've only sent one SIG back for inspection/adjustment - a new P226R 9mm, American assembled with German frame. I did have to wait on hold for about 20 minutes for CS to get to me but: It was overnighted on SIG's dime on a Thursday. Returned fixed the next TUESDAY. 5 day turnaround including the weekend. True story. So that's my experience with customer service. As far as preference? My all American made P226 .40 and P239 9mm have been flawless and are spectacularly accurate.
 

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LUPUS said:
I have never seen a locking block fluctuating in the frame before the year of 2000, but after then, almost at least half of the locking blocks are fluctuating in the frame, especially when they are pressed at the feeding ramp area, causing frame chippings during firing. All the decocking levers are chipping the frame since the notch at the rear of them is not cut deeply enogh to prevent the excesive movement of them. Most of the feeding ramps on the barrels are not cut symmetricaly as it was used to be. Most of the firing pin blocks on the stamped steel slides are protruding downwards at the very right side causing frame rail chipping. And for the MIM story, SIG Sauer have been using stamped, cast and MIM parts for over the years, but MIM parts from third world countries to cut the costs came after the year 2000.

Odd then that the decocking levers on my G195 and G208 numbered P220s are loose and yet the same levers on my recent SIGS, a P220 Combat, P220 Carry and P239 SAS are all tight and nicely fitted. As for the locking inserts in the frame, I just checked my German made P220 ('92), two German made P225s ('91 and '94) as well as four German/US made SIGs including three P220s and guess what ... they ALL move!!! The movement is tiny and probably no more than 0.005" to 0.010". One difference between my older and newer SIGs that is apparent is the trigger. The older SIGs have better single action triggers (may be due to the high round count) but the newer SIGs have better double action triggers.

I can't say anything about the longevity of the newer SIGs, but right now, today, they're all accurate, they're all 100% reliable, the fit and finish is excellent and I will be buying more. If these MIM parts prove to be a problem, I'll replace them as needed.

:)
 
I'm a member on that site and have been a visitor there for years. Many of the complaints about newer SIGs have nothing to do with quality and everything to do with aesthetics. There's definitely a snob factor with the German made SIGs but that's common in every aspect of firearms whether it's reloading equipment, rifles, optics or whatever. All I know is what I've experienced for myself in almost 20 years of owning and shooting SIGs. 99.9% of the internet is nothing but noise.

I could not disagree with you more. Today Sig is making an inferior product vs the guns they were making prior to 2000. As someone who has owned newer production Sigs that failed in my hands I dispute the validity of your statements.

I had a P220 DAK with the dreaded steel slide internal extractor issue. Would fail to extract and would lock back with 1 round still in the mag. This defect has been well documented. It took more than one trip to Sig to get the gun to fire properly.

I had a P250 which would not feed properly and certainly did not hold the 16+1 that is was advertised to hold. Sig now calls the same mags 15+1.

I had a Gen 1 GSR whose extractor retention pin was walking out as I shot it. Less than 2000 rounds down the pipe. They tried to avoid fixing this under warranty.

I have never had an issue with a German made Sig. P226 X3/ P220 X2/ P228 X 3/ Sig Pro 2022/ P225.

I would never even consider a P238 or a Mosquito. Their issues are not vaporware or aesthetic related. They are simply poor designs that were cheapened to the point of failure. Yes some people do not like the new look of Sigs but I read a lot more negativity about the actual function of the product today than ever before. Your blanket statement is not backed up by the facts. IMHO
 
I can't say anything about the longevity of the newer SIGs, but right now, today, they're all accurate, they're all 100% reliable, the fit and finish is excellent and I will be buying more. If these MIM parts prove to be a problem, I'll replace them as needed.

To me this is the most telling part of your post. You new Sigs have no mileage on them compared to the older ones. Its not a fair comparison. Its like saying my 1990 560 SEC is loose but my 2010 s550 is tight so the 2010 has to be as good. When it is simply not the case. You would have to compare the two at the same age used in the same manner and in the same conditions to draw any real conclusions beyond ones that simply give you a warm fuzzy and validate your opinion.

Honestly I have to ask how can you stomach MIM parts in a $800 gun. :barf:
 
The growth at Sig under Cohen has taken a company that was famous for its rock solid reliable production of proven designs to a company more interested in bling models, special editions and moving tons of metal. They produce way too many pistol lines today without the precision that built the Sig reputation.

Cohen is a businessman, not a gunsmith. He's taken SIG from being a declining division of a foreign arms manufacturer to a strong and growing company on its own.

Quality control may be down a bit, but much of the poor quality is perception (EVERYTHING was ALWAYS made better in the "Good Ole Days" ... only not really).

Cohen's changes have kept new SIGs from costing $2500 or for that matter SIG simply going under. If he's cut quality too much then the marketplace will tell and he'll either have to change or find someplace else to work.

Keep in mind that SIG Sauer GmbH is likely subsidized by the German government (like most companies in soft-socialist Europe) and SIG Sauer Inc USA is not. Therefore SIG Sauer GmbH doesn't have to be as profitable as SIG Sauer Inc USA to keep their doors open.

Once we get socialism here we'll probably see firearms manufacturers subsidized by the government here too (of course by then YOU and I won't be allowed to own their products :p )
 
The mosquito isn't even made by Sig so thats one reason why I'd never get it. And for that I also don't blame it all on Sig, since they don't make it.

"Keep in mind that SIG Sauer GmbH is likely subsidized by the German government (like most companies in soft-socialist Europe) and SIG Sauer Inc USA is not. Therefore SIG Sauer GmbH doesn't have to be as profitable as SIG Sauer Inc USA to keep their doors open."

The Sig part of the company is still operated in Switzerland, so it might not be as I don't think they're too socialist. Sig-Sauer was also bought by Swiss Arms AG so they are a Swiss owned company again.
 
rellascout said:
To me this is the most telling part of your post. You new Sigs have no mileage on them compared to the older ones. Its not a fair comparison. Its like saying my 1990 560 SEC is loose but my 2010 s550 is tight so the 2010 has to be as good. When it is simply not the case. You would have to compare the two at the same age used in the same manner and in the same conditions to draw any real conclusions beyond ones that simply give you a warm fuzzy and validate your opinion.

My comment was with regards to initial build quality and function based on a few hundred rounds of factory ammunition and reloads. I've had zero issues with seven SIGs old or new, and unlike you, I still own them. I know and shoot with plenty of SIG owners and none of them have had any issues either. I guess we're all just lucky in that regard.


rellascout said:
Honestly how can you stomach MIM parts in a $800 gun.

When I bought my first P220 back in '92, it was $650 NIB!! That's about $1,000 in today's money. The equivalent P220 today is selling for about $750 and it comes with a stainless steel slide with Nitron coating, a railed frame and two 8-round stainless steel magazines. How much do you think SIG would charge for that pistol if they were still offering parts machined from barstock with typical CNC tolerances? If the end user is so concerned about MIM parts in his/her pistol, then they are free to do something about it.

:)
 
Cohen is a businessman, not a gunsmith. He's taken SIG from being a declining division of a foreign arms manufacturer to a strong and growing company on its own.

Quality control may be down a bit, but much of the poor quality is perception (EVERYTHING was ALWAYS made better in the "Good Ole Days" ... only not really).

Cohen's changes have kept new SIGs from costing $2500 or for that matter SIG simply going under. If he's cut quality too much then the marketplace will tell and he'll either have to change or find someplace else to work.

Keep in mind that SIG Sauer GmbH is likely subsidized by the German government (like most companies in soft-socialist Europe) and SIG Sauer Inc USA is not. Therefore SIG Sauer GmbH doesn't have to be as profitable as SIG Sauer Inc USA to keep their doors open.

Once we get socialism here we'll probably see firearms manufacturers subsidized by the government here too (of course by then YOU and I won't be allowed to own their products )

I could not agree with you more. Cohen ran the same playbook at Mimber. I mean to a T. It was the same. Took a small production well made product cheapened its production cost, created bling pop and leveraged the older brand name to sell inferior product while still raising the cost to the end consumer. Kimber did not start to recover its rep until after he was gone.

IMHO the informed market place has been trying to tell Sig of their problems for years now. Look at the products introduced under Cohen.

Sig 556 which is a cheapened version of the Swiss gun. Hit the market with mismatched finishes, canted rails, no sights, cheap Chinese red dots at an upgrade price, Chinese molded stocks and so many versions its hard to tell one from another.

Sig Mosquito simply one of the worst 22s on the market. Any 22 which recommends the most expensive ammo on the market in order to get reliable feeding is not a 22 I would own.

Sig P250 which they have trouble selling for $500 for gen #1 guns. Gen #2 guns are not moving either. Does not matter what caliber or length it comes in its not selling. Recently this gun was removed from the DEAs consideration list because it was deemed too unreliable.

Sig P238 which is cheapened version of the Colt Mustang. A gun that is so poorly built Bruce Gray the guru of Sig pistolsmiths will not even touch one.

These account for just about every single gun Sig has introduced under Cohens management. Everyone of them had stumbled if not completely failed in my eyes. Every single gun in the P Series line is now has MIM parts and spends less time in someones hand on an assembly line than it did in the past. Yes he is there to sell and market guns at a profit for the private share holder. He is not there to design guns but look at his track record. If you continue to cheapen the product's components, limit its production time and expense eventually the product is going to suffer. Again IMHO those who have watched Sig closely have seen this decline since 2000. They are edging closer and closer to that breaking point.

It is not a made up thing. Does that mean ever Sig made after 2000 is a POS. No! Just like every Sig made in German is not perfect and without flaw. As I stated earlier in the thread the odds are still way in your favor that the US Sig you are buying is going to serve you well.

What I see is a bad trend. Cheaper and cheaper materials, MIM faster higher production numbers = more defects in the customers hands. Sig is no longer building on the rock solid P series platform. Instead that are creating new designs which are made to hit a price point and with the Mosquito, P238 and the P250 the customer seems to be doing the R&D in the field on their dime. :banghead:

I personally am shocked to see how many Sigs are still moving. That more people are not really informed about the reality of the company that now runs Sig in the US. I see it on the boards all the time. Those who defend Sig's current management and those who bash it. I bash them but I do not go to the level of saying don't buy a Sig. Its your money so its your choice.

I personally will not buy a new Sig. Simply too many older W German guns to be had cheaper. Call me a snob call me elitist I think the older guns are just a better value. YMMV
 
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When I bought my first P220 back in '92, it was $650 NIB!! That's about $1,000 in today's money. The equivalent P220 today is selling for about $750 and it comes with a stainless steel slide with Nitron coating, a railed frame and two 8-round stainless steel magazines. How much do you think SIG would charge for that pistol if they were still offering parts machined from barstock with typical CNC tolerances? If the end user is so concerned about MIM parts in his/her pistol, then they are free to do something about it.

If you paid $650 in 1992 you got ripped off. LOL

Also $750 seems a little low for a current P220 but with Sig MAP pricing its harder to properly price a Sig these days.

Again how can people continue to justify paying $750+ for a gun with MIM parts.

PS. I still own Sigs just not ones made here in the US.
 
rellascout said:
Instead that are creating new designs which are made to hit a price point and with the Mosquito, P238 and the P250 the customer seems to be doing the R&D in the field on their dime.

I actually agree with you on this. I don't have any interest in owning any of the models that you mention there. I have four P220s, two P225s and one P239 with plans to add another P239 ... that's it.

:)
 
I personally will not buy a new Sig. Simply too many older W German guns to be had cheaper. Call me a snob call me elitist I think the older guns are just a better value.
+ 1.
 
rellascout said:
If you paid $650 in 1992 you got ripped off. LOL

That was the going rate in those days in Oregon. The internet was in its infancy so all one could do was visit a bunch of local gunshops and shop around. SIGs weren't particulary common and they commanded a premium. What should I have paid back then?

:)
 
I actually agree with you on this. I don't have any interest in owning any of the models that you mention there. I have four P220s, two P225s and one P239 with plans to add another P239 ... that's it.

The reality is that Sig wants to make money more than they want to make rock solid guns. They needed new blood in the lineup. The P Series is very old school. They tried to do that with the GSR 1911 and the other guns I have mentioned but again I think that they did not create these guns using the old Sig mindset instead they rushed them to market and they put profits before the quality and the consumer pays the price.
 
rellascout said:
PS. I still own Sigs just not ones made here in the US.

So the US made ones that had issues, what was the round count when the issues cropped up?

:)
 
That was the going rate in those days in Oregon. The internet was in its infancy so all one could do was visit a bunch of local gunshops and shop around. SIGs weren't particulary common and they commanded a premium. What should I have paid back then?

You paid what you paid. My point was that if you are going to make an argument that Sig has kept their prices down then you need to use better figures.

In 1992 $650 was on the high end of what someone would have paid for a Sig. In 2010 $750 is on the low end. It skews your argument to prove your point. Reminds me of the phrase popularized by Mark Twain... there are "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

If you are going to try to prove a statical point it should be accurate.
 
So the US made ones that had issues, what was the round count when the issues cropped up?

GSR was at about 1500 to 2000 rounds. This one was a relativity easy fix but I had to fight with Sig to get it done under warranty. They wanted me to pay shipping.

P250 was right out of the box. IMHO the design is crap and was not worth the trouble. I got it fixed got it to function and sold it with full disclosure.

P220 was right out of the box. It was a CPO so actually round count was unknown but I know my Sigs and based on the lack of distinct similey on teh barrel and its overall condition I would estimate less than 500 rounds were down the pipe when I got it. This gun was especially troubling. P220 SAS with a DAK trigger. I paid about $600 OTD for it and thought I had gotten a deal until I shot it. Certified my A$$. LOL I sent this one back twice fpr repair. When I finally got it back I sold it after firing less than 50 rounds with full disclosure to the new owner.
 
rellascout said:
You paid what you paid. My point was that if you are going to make an argument that Sig has kept their prices down then you need to use better figures.

In 1992 $650 was on the high end of what someone would have paid for a Sig. In 2010 $750 is on the low end. It skews your argument to prove your point. Reminds me of the phrase popularized by Mark Twain... there are "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

If you are going to try to prove a statical point it should be accurate.

Hold on a minute!! You stated that I paid too much for the P220 in '92 implying that you know how much I should have paid. So I'll ask again, what was the average NIB cost of a P220 in Oregon (or any state) in 1992?

As for $750 being on the low end for a new P220 ... says who? I can buy that pistol at my local gun shop today for that price and possibly a little less. The P239 SAS Gen 2 that I bought recently from my local gun shop was $710 which includes sales tax. That particular pistol came with a melt finish on the slide and frame, Meprolight night sights and the short reset trigger (SRT). That pistol is shown on SIGs web site with an MSRP of around $1,000. I'm not making these prices up.

:)
 
"Again how can people continue to justify paying $750+ for a gun with MIM parts."

But what guns don't have MIM these days? Most of the ones I know of cost around $1000. At least for the Sig (P220 series, not any of the others), it's still an all metal gun that will likely outlast most pistols out there. Everyone thinks Rugers are great but I've had nothing but trouble with any of them (Sold about 15-20, still have 1, all just quality control issues), some people I guess are just more lucky than others with certain brands.
 
Hold on a minute!! You stated that I paid too much for the P220 in '92 implying that you know how much I should have paid. So I'll ask again, what was the average NIB cost of a P220 in Oregon (or any state) in 1992?

As for $750 being on the low end for a new P220 ... says who? I can buy that pistol at my local gun shop today for that price and possibly a little less. The P239 SAS Gen 2 that I bought recently from my local gun shop was $710 which includes sales tax. That particular pistol came with a melt finish on the slide and frame, Meprolight night sights and the short reset trigger (SRT). That pistol is shown on SIGs web site with an MSRP of around $1,000. I'm not making these prices up.

I would not have paid more the $575 back then I don't care where I lived.

A P239 is a cheaper gun than just about any other P series gun and the SAS with the DAK or DRT have never sold well. P239s are typically $50 to $100 less than other P series guns. It does not suprise me that you got one OTD for $710.

Please tell me where you are getting that $750 P220R. :scrutiny:
 
rellascout said:
I would not have paid more the $575 back then I don't care where I lived.

I got a bunch of free range time with that pistol too but for the life of me can't remember how much. I bought it from "The Place To Shoot" in Portland, OR and would do it again.


rellascout said:
A P239 is a cheaper gun than just about any other P series gun and the SAS with the DAK or DRT have never sold well. P239s are typically $50 to $100 less than other P series guns. It does not suprise me that you got one OTD for $710.

The price I got was close to dealer cost so I think it'd be hard to beat. The SAS Gen 2 model has an MSRP of $1,006 compared to $976 for the P220R. The P220R model with night sights has an MSRP of $1,050 so they're close in price.


rellascout said:
Please tell me where you are getting that $750 P220R.

You don't like new SIGs so I'm doing you a favor by not telling you. :neener:

:)
 
The price I got was close to dealer cost so I think it'd be hard to beat. The SAS Gen 2 model has an MSRP of $1,006 compared to $976 for the P220R. The P220R model with night sights has an MSRP of $1,050 so they're close in price.

You are quoting MSRP??? Really? The SAS P239s have not sold well. They are often discounted in order to move them. No one paid the premium that Cohen's marketing team put on them.

You don't like new SIGs so I'm doing you a favor by not telling you

Your not telling me because there is no P220 for $750... Best price you are going to find is Bud's which is $752 give or take a $ shipped to your FFL so OTD you are looking at $775 or so. :scrutiny:

Which proves my point. I say you paid an inflated price for your P220, circa 1990, by $75 are off by at least $25 on the P220R. So instead of a $100 difference it is really a $200 difference. Which given the cheaper/faster production methods is about right. The milled stainless slide is cheaper than the carbon slide. Nitron is cheaper to spray then properly blue a gun. MIM certainly cuts down on the price. All these factor in and I think that a $200 lessens your point.
 
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But what guns don't have MIM these days? Most of the ones I know of cost around $1000. At least for the Sig (P220 series, not any of the others), it's still an all metal gun that will likely outlast most pistols out there. Everyone thinks Rugers are great but I've had nothing but trouble with any of them (Sold about 15-20, still have 1, all just quality control issues), some people I guess are just more lucky than others with certain brands.

There are still tons of great all steel pistols. CZ comes to mind.

34007.jpg


I am not against MIM per say but when we are hitting the $800 price point I expect almost no MIM. Under $500 is a different story.
 
Impact Guns doesn't appear to be discounting the P239, at least, not much anyway. The SAS Gen 2 in 9mm Luger (the one I bought) is available for $816.99.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/798681412365.html

rellascout said:
Your not telling me because there is no P220 for $750...

Impact Guns has them for $750 ...

http://www.impactguns.com/store/798681289738.html

... but when you consider that I bought a P239 locally for more than $100 less than Impact's price, what do you think I'd pay for a P220R locally that Impact is selling for $750.

:)
 
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