USA SIGs quality not as good as in the past?

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JellyJar

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I have been lurking over on the SIG forum:

http://sigforum.com/eve/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=674608412

And there are lots of posts and threads about numerous problems people are encountering with the new P238. Also, I seem to remember that someone complained that the quality of SIGs made here today in the US are not as good as in they were in the past or as good as the German made SIGs.

Are there any SIG fans here that could elucidate us on this subject?
 
it's been debated over and over and over again.

I'll be honest-my opinion is that the majority of the people who are whining simply can't justify paying 900-1000 for a handgun so they bash on them when there's an issue.

The only place I've ever heard of quality complaints on Sig Sauer is the internet. But if it really puts a thorn in your side, buy a Glock and pour yourself some kool-aid.
 
I only know what I've read at sigforum since buying an X-5 TAC TB last year.

Some of the pics the members have posted have been a bit alarming, but all makers make a dud from time to time. Some folks claim that Sig didn't used to make duds.

John
 
Just bough a P220, which had its slide made in the US and was assembled maybe a month ago, is fantastic.

I have issues with the quality of the included plastic grips, but otherwise I am very happy.

I understand that the older guns may be "better" but I hear that about everything - Wingmasters, Model 70s, P&R S&Ws, it goes on and on. Uhg. I judge the gun in my hand and I make an informed decision about it, and I buy what I like and what makes me happy, no matter how "newer, not as good" it is.
 
Having owned a number of both USA and German Sigs, I can say the German guns were better. I had problems with 2002 vintage P220 ST's with soft slides that peened from the hammer impact against the firing pin. These slides were odd in that the stainless had a goldish tone to it instead of the usual white silver look. Sig replaced the slides with other soft slides. Later guns had better heat treatment and did not peen.

I also had a German made P226 Sport Stock which was night and day better than a P226 ST. Same time period. Different craftsmen.
 
As has been said already..

The issue is that sigs used to RARELY have duds and now they have about the same amount of duds as everyone else.

They are not inferior by any means...its just that they used to be worlds superior and are now more in line with every other manufacturer.

The 238 had some issues, and there have been a bad run or two here and there and a lemon or two here and there..but i had seen posts about cracked slides even back when they were made in Germany so the quality drop is minimial and most perceived...but with just a just a tad of truth mixed in.
 
the 238 issues aren't a secret to anyone other than those who don't want to listen. it has a long line of resurrections Excam-FI-Colt-Sig and has never been a very successful design.

the quality of Sigs have degraded since the head of Kimber took over and started cutting cost. the classic P-series is not as nice as the old German ones, but they haven't fallen to the Kimber level. the Mosquito was another ill conceived design in that same vein. the Sig 1911s were flawed when designed/spec'd by a "1911 Pro" who had little experience with production manufacture.

most of my Sig are German, because i bought them a long time ago. but my two 220STs and my 266ST...domestic manufacture with stainless slides...have been flawless through thousands of rounds
 
Good Sigs equal older sigs.

My first handgun was a 226 way back in 2003, fast forward I buy a 226 in .40 for my duty weapon. I now carry a Glock on duty and still have the older sig. New sig was sold asp.
 
I tried using the search function to see if there were any old threads about this but I hate this forum's search function. It does not work very well.
 
I have heard that Sigs were having problems with their extractors, that's about it. I have also read some bad stuff about their customer service too.

As far as the New vs Old Sigs.....I will take the old West German (stamped slide) pistols over the new ones. I don't really have anything solid based on that, just that I prefer the old ones because I feel that the craftmanship is much better.
I have owned three new model P220s. They were ok, but they did not feel as "quality" as my 1986 W. German P220. I also have a W. German Sig P226 that runs great.

I would recommend finding a West German Sig 220/226/228 and comparing in to a current production Sig. That would be the best way to make your decision for yourself.
 
I bought my first SIG P220 in 1993 and my second (a P225) in 1995. Both are 100% made in Germany and both have been nothing short of outstanding and I still have both. I recently bought a P220 Carry and a P220 Combat which are partially made in Germany. They shoot great, they look great, the fit and finish is excellent ... I'm not in the least bit worried about them.

:)
 
9mmepiphany,

If I could find one that was made in Just Germany, I would like to check it out and compare it. I have not been able to find one in my area yet. All the ones that I have seen at shops and shows have been W. German specimens. The closest thing I have had was a Sig P232 that said it was made in Germany, it was a fine pistol as well.

All I have to go on at this time is my opinion of W. German vs New models.....which is only my opinion.... nothing more, nothing less.
 
Nothing like West German manufactured P226. Had one, was the most accurate handgun I've ever shot. Haven't handle a Sig since that had that kind of fit and finish.

I've had some newer Sigs that are nice but I can't justify the price anymore.
 
All I have to go on at this time is my opinion of W. German vs New models.....which is only my opinion.... nothing more, nothing less.

i was just poking at you for being so specific. all folded slide Sigs manufactured after the reunification and before the changeover to the milled stainless slides were marked "made in Germany"...the dropped the "W" to honor the change, the slides were the same as before. i thought you might be one of the folks who could perceive a difference ;)
 
I own two Sigs and they work very well. Only 3 "failures" fixed by tap n rack in over 14,000 rounds.

I have a full time firearms instructor I know who sees lots of different pistols every year. He is not prone to BS or internet rumors. He said that he has been seeing problems with newer Sigs (last two years or so). He had heard that Sig had reengineering the rails or slides and were now having issues. He is one of the few people I really trust when it comes to info and he has no axe to grind w Sig.

He told me that if I wanted a new Sig, he reccomended that I look for a used one.

If it weren't for him, I would dismiss the Sig quality as internet rumor.

I'm just passing along this info. As I said, I haven't had any problems with mine, which I thing were made in 2007 or 08.
 
Ive owned a number of both the German and US made SIG's, and up until last month, when I bought a P238, I'd never had a problem with any of them, including the "dreaded" Mosquito.

The P238 was a disappointment, and needs some work to get it turned around. From what I've heard, they have made some progress, but my gun was made the 19th of May, this year, so it must be very recent progress. As was mentioned, I think the P238's problem is that they copied someone elses design, and picked the wrong one to copy. If they had kept it in house, I think they would have been better off.
 
My made-in-USA P229s, all year 2004 or newer, have been flawless. My 1990-1991 P220 "E" was also flawless. That being said, the problems with the P238 were entirely predictable, based on the history of the Colt Mustang. The most-respected custom gunsmith at Sigforum even started a thread about why he does not favor the P238 as a serious defensive pistol. The 1911 line also had growing pains. I wish SIG had avoided these projects, and stuck with what they did best all along.

The issues with some P220ST pistols are well-known, as are extractors on certain P220 models. These have not affected me because the P220 models, since the introduction of the push-button magazine release, have pointed too low for me. The P228/P229/P226 point well for me, so I stick with that "family" of SIGs.

It does stand to reason that the huge DHS contracts, and the resulting boost in production capacity, would mean an increase in the probability of bad apples. Whether it is the same folks working overtime, newbies working the production line, or both, this is inevitable.

One way to increase the odds of a good SIG, IMHO, is to go for the so-called Custom Shop guns. Four of mine are limited-run Custom Shop pistols, though my plain vanilla DHS-spec P229R DAK is really just as good as the "customs," though quite a bit smoother than some standard ones I have handled.
 
Sig today suffers from the same issues Kimber did under Cohens management. They are all about moving the metal. They need to produce as many pistols, as fast and as cheaply as possible.

This is why they went to all milled stainless slides.

This is why they use MIM in the P series pistols now.

This is why the copied a flawed Colt Mustang design and called it the P238 in order hit a price point in the competitive 380 auto market.

This is why they cheapened the original GSR which was made from premium parts. Caspian slides and frames with Storm Lake barrels to a run the of the mill production 1911 made from in house Sig parts.

This is why we got a bastardized version of the 55X series rifle with cheap Chinese red dot scopes and no irons at all let alone a diopter sight without paying a huge premium.

This is why we got a Mosquito made of pot metal that sometimes works if you shoot the most expensive 22LR in the market with the right spring and the wind is blowing in the right direction. :D

These are just some of the examples. I will not even mention the issues P250 which IMHO is a total dud. The growth at Sig under Cohen has taken a company that was famous for its rock solid reliable production of proven designs to a company more interested in bling models, special editions and moving tons of metal. They produce way too many pistol lines today without the precision that built the Sig reputation.

They are still good pistols. The numbers are still way in your favor that you will get a good gun out of Sig. I believe that their greatest folly is that they have not grown customer service at the same rate as production. They are making more guns but still attempting to deal with the bad apples produced with the the same about of people. Double your production and even if you keep the % defect rate the same you are still producing double the amount of defective pistols as before. If you had 10 people to handle the old volume 10 people is not going to cut it once you have doubled the production.

IMHO the chances of getting a defective Sig has more than doubled since the majority of production has moved to the US. IMHO the old number might have been .25%. Today it is closer to 1%. When you look at the price of a new P series pistol being over $800 with cheaper materials and a higher chance of defect it is hard to justify buying one IMHO especially with all the LNIB used pistols already in the market place.
 
Caspian slides and frames with Storm Lake barrels to a run the of the mill production 1911 made from in house Sig parts.

this may indeed be cheaper, but the move away from Caspian slides and frames is what has made their 1911 models more reliable. just because a company can make outstanding gunsmith fit parts doesn't mean they can hold the tolerances needed for a production pistol
 
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